British Champs? Whats Going On

[rugbyman]

stick your head out of the bunny hole you may well get your head blown off

now we are talking

if only you'd let me get my .222 out

Matt is the only one under 25 (He's 19) to be on a committee

and yes he did a great job

o for more of people like him! a credit to the sport

please remove this thread and wait and see

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

AMCA are also a motorcycle body, The ACU have over 100 years of two wheel experience and are a non profit making organisation they have welcomed us under there umbrella of associations and have bent over backwards to help out, Are you awaire that they upheld Tyke Trials gear ruling against Andrei Burton last year,

Are you aware that ACU insurance covers up to £30 million accident insurance (£5 million AMCA if memory Serves) That ACU cover officials during the marking out of an event right up until the last official locks the gate and goes home, probably several hours after riders are all tucked up in front of the TV,

Are you aware that ACU insurance also covers riders for other events, (Yes Motorcycle Trials) but also most other offroad two wheel sport, Do you know the ACU has a group of people who (should you need to defend your self due to an accident they will defend you) AMCA cover you for insurance but not the rest.

The ACU run a benevolent fund that Clubs and centres pay into, so if someone hurts themselves and is unable to work they will (if neccesarry) pay out while YOU can't work, Do the AMCA

Last but not least are you aware that the ACU cover that YOU get when riding in an ACU event covers YOU personally, should YOU hurt someone you are covered under their cover YOU ARE PERSONALLY INSURED not like the AMCA.

Well said that man! That's what I wanted confirmed, although I still don't know where the BIU license holders stand with the insurance thing but it seems like the AMCA is to play the ACU role in the Northern clubs... As Phil's said there, I think the ACU have done a lot to help biketrials out and see it as a bonus that we can be included and supported under their 'umbrella' as a bike sport organisation. I've been able to meet the head guys of the ACU a couple of times at Beaulieu, along with Sammy Miller and there's one thing that shines through which is their love of all things two wheeled!

I appologise for my swearing in this thread, I find it hard to express how strongly I feel about things like this on a forum without resorting to potty mouth! Emotions are obviously running high on this topic and I hope things can be sorted out amicably... it'll all come out in the wash as they say.

Dave

[rugbyman]

Well said that man! That's what I wanted confirmed, although I still don't know where the BIU license holders stand with the insurance thing but it seems like the AMCA is to play the ACU role in the Northern clubs... As Phil's said there, I think the ACU have done a lot to help biketrials out and see it as a bonus that we can be included and supported under their 'umbrella' as a bike sport organisation. I've been able to meet the head guys of the ACU a couple of times at Beaulieu, along with Sammy Miller and there's one thing that shines through which is their love of all things two wheeled!

I appologise for my swearing in this thread, I find it hard to express how strongly I feel about things like this on a forum without resorting to potty mouth! Emotions are obviously running high on this topic and I hope things can be sorted out amicably... it'll all come out in the wash as they say.

Dave

and how many british rounds have you ridden?

[BikeTrial Federation]

Long and complicated but you ask for the differences between the two insurances, here they are, almost word for word and number for number ... (apologies if I have missed anything, it's late, I'm tired)

ACU / UKBikeTrials

BIU Licence - Free (but no income to improve the sport)

ACU Licence - £10 this year (said to be increasing)

Insurance arrangements

Pre-event:-

£20 permit application fee - in advance payable to ACU

Complete the permit application form. Send it to the local ACU Centre for their agreement and signature, they send it back to you. Then you send it to ACU Head Office with the cheque. They then send you the insurance permit along with a tree's worth of forms.

Post-event:-

Insurance form to be completed in triplicate, send one copy to insurance company with a copy of the results and a cheque as below, send second copy with cheque to ACU with a copy of the results, keep third copy on file for seven years with all signing on sheets, copy of insurance permit and any other documentation.

£1.20 per adult (16 and over) insurance - paid after to Locktons Insurance

£0.60 per child (under 16) insurance - paid after to Locktons Insurance

£0.50 per rider (all ages) - "ACU Contingency Fee" (?) paid after to ACU

ACU dictate the rules. As their General Secretary said in his letter to George Eyre (2nd January 2007) ...

"Should your Committee wish to run events under the BIU or the UCI, then please affiliate to that organisation and run your events using their permits, insurances etc."

(I think that means "sod off")

Now lets work that out ... to be paid outside of the sport ...

Costs

Say 100 members x £10 = £1,000 in members' ACU licence fees

10 events each year x £20 = £200

with say 50 riders at each = 500 rides

Say 50% are under 16, so

250 x £1.20 = £300

250 x £.60 = £150

500 x £.50 = £250

TOTAL £1,900

So let's look at the insurance benefits ...

Riders' Personal Accident

Death (16 +) £10,000

Death (11 - 15) £ 7,500 (what about the under-11's?)

Permanent total disablement £20,000

Officials' Personal Accident

Death (over 16's) £65,000

Death (14 - 16) £ 7,500

Loss of 2 limbs or 2 eyes (16+) £65,000

Loss of 2 limbs or 2 eyes (u16) £20,000

Permanent total disablement (over16) £65,000

Permanent total disablement (14-16) £20,000

Temporary total disablement (over16) £150 pw max 104 weeks

Temporary total disablement (14-16) £75 pw

Public Liability £30,000,000

Landowners liability Included

The solution after being told to sod off was ...

BikeTrial UK - independent governing body of BikeTrial working with AMCA

BIU Licence - £10 (All income to go directly back into the BikeTrial sport to enable improvement.) (Licence holders to have automatic membership to any UK club - but only 2 clubs would agree to that)

Insurance arrangements

Pre-event:-

Register the event directly onto Locktons website 6 weeks in advance

AMCA send completed forms directly to the organiser - you sign one and send it back.

Post-event:-

Complete declaration form, photocopy it, send it off to insurers with signing on sheets for them to store and a cheque for

£2.20 per adult (16 and over) and £1.60 per child (under 16) and £15 to cover all observers/helpers.

Costs

Say 100 members

10 events each year with say 50 riders at each = 500 rides

Say 50 riders at each = 500 rides

Say 50% are under 16, so9

250 x £1.60 = £400

250 x £2.20 = £550

10 x £15.00 = £150

TOTAL £1,100

Insurance benefites

Riders' Personal Accident

Death (16 +) £10,000

Death (6 - 15) £ 7,500

Loss of one or more limbs £20,000

Loss of one or more eyes £20,000

Permanent disability £ 2,000

4 weeks in hospital £2,000

Officials' Personal Accident

Death £65,000

Loss of one or more limbs £65,000

Loss of sight, one or more eyes £65,000

Total disability £65,000

Temporary disability £250 pw max 104 weeks

Public Liability £30,000,000

Landowners liability Included

Print them out, put them side by side and work it out for yourself.

To reply to Phil Tupman ...

Are you aware that ACU insurance covers up to £30 million accident insurance (£5 million AMCA if memory Serves)

• Incorrect, £30,000,000

That ACU cover officials during the marking out of an event right up until the last official locks the gate and goes home, probably several hours after riders are all tucked up in front of the TV,

• So does AMCA - and they pay a higher temporary disability benefit

Are you aware that ACU insurance also covers riders for other events, (Yes Motorcycle Trials) but also most other offroad two wheel sport

• So what? We're interested in people on pushbikes, not in cars etc.

Do you know the ACU has a group of people who (should you need to defend your self due to an accident they will defend you) AMCA cover you for insurance but not the rest.

• Quote: "The payment of legal fees incurred with the written consent of the Company for representation of the Insured in any proceedings in a Court or similar forum arising out of .............."

The ACU run a benevolent fund that Clubs and centres pay into, so if someone hurts themselves and is unable to work they will (if neccesarry) pay out while YOU can't work, Do the AMCA

• The AMCA appear to pay higher temporary disability benefits than the ACU. Perhaps charity is not required.

• A difference that you failed to raise between the two companies, is that the ACU pay benefits for youths age 11-15 (according to the 2007 handbook), and the AMCA pay benefits for youngsters age 6-15 which was especially negotiated for BikeTrial.

Last but not least are you aware that the ACU cover that YOU get when riding in an ACU event covers YOU personally, should YOU hurt someone you are covered under their cover YOU ARE PERSONALLY INSURED not like the AMCA

• You will have noticed I am sure that the insurance fee per rider per event is higher through AMCA than through ACU. The difference between the two fees is the personal insurance fee PER EVENT instead of as a one off annual licence fee that you have to pay even if you only ride once a year. Isn't this a fairer way - to pay for what you use?

I can't remember AMCA saying that they would hold the deal for the next 10 years! So what happens If they hike the price next yeay, They are a privately run body, that are there to turn a profit

• No, the AMCA did not guarantee a price for the next 10 years. Have the ACU? No, instead the ACU are talking about different values of insurance cover: gold cover; silver cover; bronze cover. Isn't that going to make life more complicated? That is how British Cycling do it and it is extremely confusing.

They are a privately run body, that are there to turn a profit

• And the ACU aren't? They have wages and bills to pay just the same as everyone; and I'm sure all of those "official ACU Committee members" don't travel to so many meetings for free (not like the BikeTrial Committee members have always done).
• When the ACU first wanted BikeTrial to start up with them, they provided lunch for them at meetings. After a year, they cut the lunch out. Then in December they announced that they were going to charge BikeTrial UK £80 to use the room. When Geroge Eyre told them to get lost, they then decided that BikeTrial could have the room for free, and you could all have lunch too. So you don't get anything out of it?
• The personal criticisms made against individuals at the AMCA made at the January meeting don't get anyone anywhere.

BikeTrial Uk are not the only people who are fed up with ACU's dictatorial stance. I quote from

"MINUTES OF THE CENTRE CHAIRMEN/SECRETARIES MEETING HELD AT ACU HOUSE, RUGBY ON SATURDAY 24TH FEBRUARY 2007 AT 10.30 AM"

"The Chairman described a recent meeting he had attended at the Cambridge Junior Club, currently a Club affiliated to ORPA, who had expressed an interest in joining the ACU. They had ultimately decided to remain with ORPA and the main reasons for this was the bureaucracy involved in running an ACU event through a Centre and the cost of insurance. It is evident that unless we can streamline our traditional practices and procedures to make them acceptable more of our Clubs will consider leaving us. We therefore have to tackle this situation head on as our Clubs are the lifeblood of the ACU and the reason for our existence. We must also appreciate that the situation is urgent as other organisations are growing in strength and may challenge our position as the recognised National Governing Body of the Sport. The ACU has to keep pace with modern trends and make every effort to attract back those Clubs and riders who have gone to other organisations. We must also encourage and attract new Clubs and Riders to organise and run their events with the ACU. The Sport is being made available cheaply and conveniently through ORPA and other organisations and we must compete with this even if the solutions may be painful and some long accepted practices do not survive."

And finally, I reciprocate the following quote from the Minutes of the same ACU Meeting:-

"Mrs Payne finished this item by stating that competitors simply wanted to ride their bikes, and was not interested who provided what. She said there was too much in-fighting within the ACU, people were more intent on giving each other ‘grief’ than improving standards. She finished by saying that we should be looking at our finances and ourselves – stop arguing and be more flexible. "

More information about the AMCA here

Good night all - hope to see you at an event soon.

Oh, and by the way Phil, Wayne sets up sections for 12 events each year and attends about 10 meetings each year. He more than plays his part for the sport.

[robster]

Just got into work this morning and it has just dawned on me that not only is biketrial in the UK on ots backside, but it looks as though world biketrial is also on its ass.

What is the deal with only 2 rounds? Both of the biggest bike manufacturers and Koxx and Monty France and Spain and Spain being the country that spawned the sport have dropped out. I smell a bit of a rat. I have had close relations with the man himself Ot Pi since Robbie started out and I bet he is absolutley gutted at the state of the sport in genral not just over here.

So cheer up every body make the most of what we have becauase at this rate you will not be able to go abroad and compete soon either.

Somebody will step up to the mark and sort all of this out some day very soon I am sure of that.

see you at whichever and whenever no doubt.

JP

[Matt_Tupman]

Long and complicated but you ask for the differences between the two insurances, here they are, almost word for word and number for number ... (apologies if I have missed anything, it's late, I'm tired)

ACU / UKBikeTrials

BIU Licence - Free (but no income to improve the sport)

ACU Licence - £10 this year (said to be increasing)

Insurance arrangements

Pre-event:-

£20 permit application fee - in advance payable to ACU

Complete the permit application form. Send it to the local ACU Centre for their agreement and signature, they send it back to you. Then you send it to ACU Head Office with the cheque. They then send you the insurance permit along with a tree's worth of forms.

Post-event:-

Insurance form to be completed in triplicate, send one copy to insurance company with a copy of the results and a cheque as below, send second copy with cheque to ACU with a copy of the results, keep third copy on file for seven years with all signing on sheets, copy of insurance permit and any other documentation.

£1.20 per adult (16 and over) insurance - paid after to Locktons Insurance

£0.60 per child (under 16) insurance - paid after to Locktons Insurance

£0.50 per rider (all ages) - "ACU Contingency Fee" (?) paid after to ACU

ACU dictate the rules. As their General Secretary said in his letter to George Eyre (2nd January 2007) ...

"Should your Committee wish to run events under the BIU or the UCI, then please affiliate to that organisation and run your events using their permits, insurances etc."

(I think that means "sod off")

Now lets work that out ... to be paid outside of the sport ...

Costs

Say 100 members x £10 = £1,000 in members' ACU licence fees

10 events each year x £20 = £200

with say 50 riders at each = 500 rides

Say 50% are under 16, so

250 x £1.20 = £300

250 x £.60 = £150

500 x £.50 = £250

TOTAL £1,900

So let's look at the insurance benefits ...

Riders' Personal Accident

Death (16 +) £10,000

Death (11 - 15) £ 7,500 (what about the under-11's?)

Permanent total disablement £20,000

Officials' Personal Accident

Death (over 16's) £65,000

Death (14 - 16) £ 7,500

Loss of 2 limbs or 2 eyes (16+) £65,000

Loss of 2 limbs or 2 eyes (u16) £20,000

Permanent total disablement (over16) £65,000

Permanent total disablement (14-16) £20,000

Temporary total disablement (over16) £150 pw max 104 weeks

Temporary total disablement (14-16) £75 pw

Public Liability £30,000,000

Landowners liability Included

The solution after being told to sod off was ...

BikeTrial UK - independent governing body of BikeTrial working with AMCA

BIU Licence - £10 (All income to go directly back into the BikeTrial sport to enable improvement.) (Licence holders to have automatic membership to any UK club - but only 2 clubs would agree to that)

Insurance arrangements

Pre-event:-

Register the event directly onto Locktons website 6 weeks in advance

AMCA send completed forms directly to the organiser - you sign one and send it back.

Post-event:-

Complete declaration form, photocopy it, send it off to insurers with signing on sheets for them to store and a cheque for

£2.20 per adult (16 and over) and £1.60 per child (under 16) and £15 to cover all observers/helpers.

Costs

Say 100 members

10 events each year with say 50 riders at each = 500 rides

Say 50 riders at each = 500 rides

Say 50% are under 16, so9

250 x £1.60 = £400

250 x £2.20 = £550

10 x £15.00 = £150

TOTAL £1,100

Insurance benefites

Riders' Personal Accident

Death (16 +) £10,000

Death (6 - 15) £ 7,500

Loss of one or more limbs £20,000

Loss of one or more eyes £20,000

Permanent disability £ 2,000

4 weeks in hospital £2,000

Officials' Personal Accident

Death £65,000

Loss of one or more limbs £65,000

Loss of sight, one or more eyes £65,000

Total disability £65,000

Temporary disability £250 pw max 104 weeks

Public Liability £30,000,000

Landowners liability Included

Print them out, put them side by side and work it out for yourself.

To reply to Phil Tupman ...

• Incorrect, £30,000,000

• So does AMCA - and they pay a higher temporary disability benefit

• So what? We're interested in people on pushbikes, not in cars etc.

• Quote: "The payment of legal fees incurred with the written consent of the Company for representation of the Insured in any proceedings in a Court or similar forum arising out of .............."

• The AMCA appear to pay higher temporary disability benefits than the ACU. Perhaps charity is not required.

• A difference that you failed to raise between the two companies, is that the ACU pay benefits for youths age 11-15 (according to the 2007 handbook), and the AMCA pay benefits for youngsters age 6-15 which was especially negotiated for BikeTrial.

• You will have noticed I am sure that the insurance fee per rider per event is higher through AMCA than through ACU. The difference between the two fees is the personal insurance fee PER EVENT instead of as a one off annual licence fee that you have to pay even if you only ride once a year. Isn't this a fairer way - to pay for what you use?

• No, the AMCA did not guarantee a price for the next 10 years. Have the ACU? No, instead the ACU are talking about different values of insurance cover: gold cover; silver cover; bronze cover. Isn't that going to make life more complicated? That is how British Cycling do it and it is extremely confusing.

• And the ACU aren't? They have wages and bills to pay just the same as everyone; and I'm sure all of those "official ACU Committee members" don't travel to so many meetings for free (not like the BikeTrial Committee members have always done).
• When the ACU first wanted BikeTrial to start up with them, they provided lunch for them at meetings. After a year, they cut the lunch out. Then in December they announced that they were going to charge BikeTrial UK £80 to use the room. When Geroge Eyre told them to get lost, they then decided that BikeTrial could have the room for free, and you could all have lunch too. So you don't get anything out of it?
• The personal criticisms made against individuals at the AMCA made at the January meeting don't get anyone anywhere.

BikeTrial Uk are not the only people who are fed up with ACU's dictatorial stance. I quote from

And finally, I reciprocate the following quote from the Minutes of the same ACU Meeting:-

More information about the AMCA here

Good night all - hope to see you at an event soon.

Oh, and by the way Phil, Wayne sets up sections for 12 events each year and attends about 10 meetings each year. He more than plays his part for the sport.

Well Barbara I suppose I could spend all day Or Night raeding the ACU Rule Book and picking out all the benefits that bi missed but I think people are getting more than bored so I will keep it simple.

1. No one told you to "Sod Off" you decided to do that with all the Clubs and riders money when YOU decided that you didn't want to listen, you yourself had said "2 Club" whilst 3 Clubs with many years of experience and no one running them that had a financial interest in the sport wanted to stay.

The way that BikeTrial Uk that I'm a part of has set up it's finances more than covers the cost of improving the sport as a whole.

I don't really want to go into the money side of stuff and what happened to all the money in the BikueTrial UK account before you left, as I'm really not here to throw stones suffice to say all you may want to answer where it all went or maybe you won't, I'll let you start that thread!!The ACU is 2 wheel sport not cars are through the MSA

YOU may not be interested in other sports but I was trying to covey was that they work for the good of 2 wheel sport how much cash do AMCA put into the sport?

I am more than aware of Wayne setting out Trials, has he got a Clerk of the Course licence? you propably don't think je needs one. Matt went out and got one he marks out ALL of our Club events (6) as clerk of the course, (with Help from a couple of riders) He also marked out the National at Hedge Barton Last year, as well as donig the secretarial work for the then BIU Delegate Fred Savage, as well as having to listen to the verbal tirade from both yourself and My Eyre on more than i occasion.

The £80 fee was because YOu wanted them to open up on a Sunday Morning when the office is closed Saturdays are FREE!!!!!!

Nobody personally critisized people at the AMCA it was just noted that they where not a NON Profit organisation.

Oh and by the way Barbara i like your add in Trials and Motocross news, that you've run for the last few months, good to see that although you seem to hate all things motorised you still don't mind advertising in the leading 2 wheel offroad weekly publication in the country let alone the world

Phil Tupman

Edited March 24, 2007 by Matt_Tupman

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

and how many british rounds have you ridden?

Pretty sure that has nothing to do with anything Mick... I've probably ridden a total of 7 or 8 nationals. I ride trials for fun, and because I enjoy it. I simply don't (and don't want to) take it as seriously as the hard core riders who travel the length of the country to ride every comp going. At the nationals in particular (understandably) people get very serious and stressed when they ride below their ability and face the wrath of their dad, or even themselves for that matter. That just doesn't do much for me. I ride the national rounds I do because the places they're held are some of the best in the country and I enjoy making use of those facilities such as Hook Woods.

Sorry if you feel I'm a sub-standard competitor!!

Dave

[Waynio]

i take it your aggitated phil? all this to hide behind someone eh?

personally it ends on, the sport was perfect and i saw no need for any change in 2007? there was, as some T**T put the UCI rules in the handbook, dont forget people there is ONLY 1 uci club in the UK.

Therefore they have got involved weather it be for votes or no votes and its fluffed the UK trials scene. most "understanding" people know this and can see it a country mile off. its just the short sighted people who cant see this.

im off to koxx days tomorrow to enjoy myself have alot of fun and forget UK Biketrial and think about coming back to Bike Trial UK.

AMCA seem to wish to want OUR rules and leave us to do what WE want Dave, therefore it is better for us personally? this is an "opinion" you have yours, no one else has looked into it apart from tyke trial. so who/how does anyone else know how it works?

John, exactly its on its arse "world wide" which is fair play cos the control of picking a UK team to go to World Champs in a year or 2 may not be needed, hence it matters nothing who gets to pick a team.

UK Bike Trial dont forgert, Remove Blackpool from your calendar, that is OUR event. Organised and sorted out by Mrs Barbara Wright.

Buisiness's are involved (Cleanbikes and Koxx UK/Trialsman) BUT if you consider the amount of time and effort that goes into a "trial" and trying to confirm new venues and such forth (meetings with the council/land owners, phone calls? and such forth) where does barbara and fred have time to sell (concentrate on buisiness?) their products???? Chris Wright owns clean bikes, who has not ridden trials for 5/6 years (but his mum STILL encourages and organises events, that to me is an extremly positive thing to do, she could have just put it down the pan 3 years ago!!!! along with George Eyre who again was the saviour 3 years ago, so before critism (dave) remember what i said? "Stop - look - listen" = (Stop before you post - Appreciate the time and effort by others - and dont jump to conclusions)

Who cares, its micks b'day friday at koxx days BEER!!!! will be a good laugh to be around "Real" friends eh mick? not back stabbers

Waynio.....................

Sorry got to love you and leave you. im signing off and hopefully not back on for a good week or 2.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

so before critism (dave) remember what i said? "Stop - look - listen" = (Stop before you post - Appreciate the time and effort by others - and dont jump to conclusions)

Just had a look through my posts in this thread and I can't find anywhere that I've criticised anyone, except maybe criticising everyone involved for letting this spiral into what it's become. All I've been trying to assertain is why a divide has occured at all. I'm happy to admit I'm not exactly the most committed trials rider out there but then for me it's just a hobby I do when I can- it will never be my livelihood.

In fact I think you'll find that it was you that started 'poking the fire' inserting sarcy comments and accusing me of making biased comments!

Anyway, I'll be sending my BIU form off (without payment) to Barry Deeks and will be attending Hook Woods next month to ride for fun!!

Dave

[Waynio]

thats why i took the posts down, as i saw it was going to instigate the tupmans to post reply's.

yes, i can be sarcastic at least the people who know WHO i am know that i am totally not like that but on here, who cares? its only an internet forum. i know how "most" people on here are as iv met most, but i know how most of them work too, and alot seem to be scheming very well with what they think is "power" of bike trials. when they realise it is all voluntary and they get nothing out of it and it shuts down, no one will want to pick up the pieces.

Luckily 3 years ago, George Eyre and Barbara did with the help from a few others. Dont forget your £10.00 ACU Dave which makes it 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. if you have worked it out????

Waynio.....................

i look forward to this year, as there will be no argueing or falling out at the rounds up north, as the clash of opinions/ personalities in people will not clash. a FUN friendly atmosphere for everyone.

[F-Stop Junkie]

I realise I'm largely an outsider to the inner workings of the comittee, but I have been involved with trials for eleven years, and I care about the sport.

My concern in all this is that BiketrialUK should be an independant body. It should be free to pick and choose it's suppliers, rules, committee and so on, and do so without interference from an outside organisation.

With the removal of funds going to BiketrialUK and instead going direct to the ACU (Free BIU licences, mandatory ACU licences), it appears this freedom has been removed. Is this the case?

Is BiketrialUK now a nice name for ACU - Biketrial Department?

If this is the case, then what would happen if the ACU upped the cost of a licence to £100 per rider? Could BiketrialUK move away from the ACU to prevent riders being adversely affected?

Why can't the results from NBTC and Tyketrial events be included in a British Champs series, irrespective of who provides insurance as long as they're both running under the BIU?

[BikeTrial Federation]

You have hit the nail on the head. Please see the following letter received on 19th March:-

Dear Barbara and Fred,

To arrive at the conclusions concerning this disturbing situation in your country I have relied entirely on the rules as presented in the EBU statutes from the year of 2004. There was no way that I, or the members of the EBU committee could do anything else.

I have to emphasize that I and the EBU committee cannot settle affairs within a country (specific to this statement is the situation in Great Britain). ACU is the British member of EBU and all decisions within Britain have to be settled by the ACU. It is NOT a question of wanting, or not wanting to enter into this debate, I CANNOT LEGALLY INVOLVE MYSELF OR EBU!

I will say that personally I have tried to proceed with as much caution and consideration as possible. Ultimately as president of EBU my responsibility is to all the member countries and I must in my actions and decisions remain free of personal feelings and biases.

On a personal note to the two of you I will make an appeal. I do this as your friend and because I feel BikeTrial UK will be a lesser organization without your participation. (Everyone acquainted with the history of BikeTrial in Great Britain knows that as well.) I ask that you set aside your differences and join with the other clubs so that BikeTrial UK is whole and an example of cooperation for our young members.

Best Regards,

Libor Musil

Anthony, Fred rang you the other day offering a compromise. Why have you not replied?

Phil, you keep saying that I have done something wrong with the BikeTrial accounts. I will not respond to your libellous attempts to draw me into such discussions on this forum. It is not the place. I am happy for Terry Graves, Stuart Matthews or Dave Bradley, or all three of them, to visit me to review every single receipt and calculation at my home. If any discrepancies were to be found, the amount will of course be refunded.

.

[Walleee]

This is so sad.

how can waynio say people are 'hiding' behind others, when robbie has an account yet rarely post's himself. Maybe you need to consider that even if phil did register, he wouldn't be able to post here because of validation, surley what he did was the best way to get his message accross?

but yeh, bit of a mess folks, kinda glad now we don't have a comp scene over here, it's a beautiful day and im going out to ride my bike.

Surley the fact that robbies dad and sam have posted is enough to get this sorted? It seems to me that they are the furture of the sport.

[robster]

I realise I'm largely an outsider to the inner workings of the committee, but I have been involved with trials for eleven years, and I care about the sport.

My concern in all this is that BiketrialUK should be an independent body. It should be free to pick and choose it's suppliers, rules, committee and so on, and do so without interference from an outside organisation.

With the removal of funds going to BiketrialUK and instead going direct to the ACU (Free BIU licences, mandatory ACU licences), it appears this freedom has been removed. Is this the case?

Is BiketrialUK now a nice name for ACU - Biketrial Department?

If this is the case, then what would happen if the ACU upped the cost of a licence to £100 per rider? Could BiketrialUK move away from the ACU to prevent riders being adversely affected?

Why can't the results from NBTC and Tyketrial events be included in a British Champs series, irrespective of who provides insurance as long as they're both running under the BIU?

Hallelujah(sp) to you now that does make some sense.

This is so sad.

how can Wayne say people are 'hiding' behind others, when Robbie has an account yet rarely post's himself. Maybe you need to consider that even if Phil did register, he wouldn't be able to post here because of validation, surly what he did was the best way to get his message across?

but yeah, bit of a mess folks, kinda glad now we don't have a comp scene over here, it's a beautiful day and I'm going out to ride my bike.

Surly the fact that Robbie's dad and SAM have posted is enough to get this sorted? It seems to me that they are the future of the sport.

Just read your post and yes you are right. I should have my own account on here, Rob never posts anything as he is only 9 years old and his typing skills leave a lot to the imagination. :$ But he is far far better known in the UK trials world than I ever will be, I also don't want to be bothering him with all of this mess on here.

I too my friend are going to go out for a ride with Robbie on our mountain bikes now as it is also a great day over here. And thanks for the comments about Rob and Sam being the future of the sport and I am sure you will agree as a dad I have a duty to protect him from all of this.

JP

[Waynio]

Chris, i would like trials to be as you have described it.

Independant is better? (or is it not?) Bike Trials as opposed to ACU Bike trials???

All of this will come to an end (hopefully soon) and trials will be peaceful (or maybe not)

Jake1516 = john put peace to your question, for people of a young age, i wouldnt wish my son or daughter to get invovled in all these shinanegans if they were into trials. there best kept away from it and it blow over or sorts itself out.

People have missed the point of why this has all happened but im sure it will come through in the lime light soon. it has been in a few of my posts.

Dont get me wrong, i HAVE to see both sides of any arguement i work in a shop for christ sake, but if your in the wrong it should be admitted. Lets see how things go. i wont be loosing any sleep over it.

Waynio.............................

[BikeTrial Federation]

Sorry to go on, but "the other side" have had their say. I promise this will be my last post on this matter, but I forgot to give you a link to this document which clearly explains WHY it all started ...

Minutes of ACU meeting 2nd December 2006

Please see item 13, right at the end, under the heading "BikeTrial Regulations". (Note that this document is on the ACU website so we have no control over it.)

For those who can't be bothered to look at the link, it says:-

13. Disagreement had arisen between some members of Bike Trial UK and the ACU regarding amendments to the Bike Trial Standing Regulations. Attempts to discuss issues regarding the rule changes had not resolved the differences and Bike Trial UK wished the matter to be deferred until their AGM in January. This was not possible due to the fact that the deadline for the Handbook had now been reached and it was therefore agreed that the changes should be implemented by the relevant Committee without further consultation.

NOW WHO'S BEING UNDEMOCRATIC?

Oh, and by the way, I don't hate motorcycles, my son has had a few in his time. I just don't believe it's the right way to go about running biketrials - it needs to be independent.

.

Edited March 24, 2007 by BikeTrialUK

[F-Stop Junkie]

Wayne, I can see no reason why BiketrialUK should be bound to any organisation. Why should the comittee be restricted in their insurance supplier? What if Direct Line would cover it for half the price of the ACU, shouldn't the most suitable cost effective option be taken?

As soon as you bind yourself to another organisation, then they have you over a barrel. If they put up prices, or impose restrictions, then you are powerless to resist unless you can leave. It's only worth having an association while there are clear benefits which can not be obtained elsewhere.

The ACU is a very large organisation, so the benefits we can take from them may far exceed those we - and by we I mean the Biketrial community - can offer. However, we should guard our independence jealously. Without it, there is no BiketrialUK.

To an extent, it's the same with the individual clubs, however the inter-relation is far greater. By each club paying a small levy to a central organisation, then the community as a whole can benefit. By the same token, through centralising resources the clubs can receive benefits which out weigh what they'd receive individually. It may be something as trivial as reduced prices through bulk buying section marking tape, or it may be standard admin packs, or widespread media relations, or any number of things which could be achieved by a distributed, multi-talented, nationwide team.

However if any individual club wishes to remain outside the benefits offered, there is still no reason to exclude them from hosting an event under a set of rules to count towards a championship. It would be simple for the governing body to say that in order to host a round, you must provide the following:

• Public indemnity insurance to a total of £30M
• Full compliance with prevailing rules (BIU)
• X number of marked sections, laid out to the satisfaction of the delegate of the sanctioned rules
• etc...

There are obviously a lot of well intentioned people, who want to help the sport progress. I think it's important to not forget the past and exclude those with the most experience. To do so could result in past mistakes or errors being made again. I hope that my views are regarded as impartial because I've had the pleasure of getting to know most (if not all) the people involved in the comittee over the years. My only desire is to see trials progress, as it has been in the last eleven years I've been involved.

One other thing I would like to say, is that in all the time I've known Barbara Wright, she has been a hard working model of professionalism. Fastidious to the last detail, and with a clear picture of any and all matters in hand. I find it hard to believe that what has been said in her name could be accurate. I hope that this is a case of facts being missed through the migration of the organisation to clarify exactly what has been happening, and that a clear history of the BiketrialUK funds can emerge to reflect their true state.

[Sam Oliver]

One other thing I would like to say, is that in all the time I've known Barbara Wright, she has been a hard working model of professionalism. Fastidious to the last detail, and with a clear picture of any and all matters in hand. I find it hard to believe that what has been said in her name could be accurate. I hope that this is a case of facts being missed through the migration of the organisation to clarify exactly what has been happening, and that a clear history of the BiketrialUK funds can emerge to reflect their true state.

That is a fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the only paragraph in the hole topic that people will believe

Ian........

[Waynio]

i agree chris, but see it from the side of this topic? Why should barbara, Fred, Mick etc give up their time to work with a bunch of arseholes who lie through their teeth? that is my way of looking at it and a very blunt one at that. but i dont beat around the bush i get straight to the point. its hard for people to be totally thrown out of the scenario by personal dis-approval and personal issues (this is obviously through "opinions" about rules,selection,venues,organisation etc etc)

Ian people of this forum "SHOULD" believe the paragraph at the end chris put BUT with the mind washing that has gone on in this topic and people are lead to believe different, you can see why they wouldnt believe a statment like that. all you have to do is read Matt Tupmans posts (some/MOST of which have been his dads)

it would be great for Bike Trial to break away from any insurer? and be independant like you say chris BUT the people in the current committee arent for taking risks/spending time to look into this, as 2 years ago and at the last AGM, i attended 1 BTUK meeting 2 years ago and the committee were way too guarded by the ACU, some members DID want this to happen and it is those people who are critisized in this thread. (so what you want chris, and what alot of others to promote the sport and make it bigger want, cant happen due to some committee members who are very involved with the ACU)

Tyke Trial have seen NO issues what so ever with going with someone else OTHER than the ACU, it would hopefully only be a matter of time before other clubs may consider doing the same, some will, some wont.

Me and Ben are all ready for Koxx days, so none of this will be to worry about and maybe in the week away and on return maybe UK Bike Trial may have come to some apologies for certain people and all the critisism will stop and we can all get on with 2007 and have a good year. (we wont if the back stabbing and the lies continue though) IT will still be 2 different championships for 2007 though. not a bad thing though. everyone can turn upto anyones then (possibly)

Waynio...............................

[Matt_Tupman]

I realise I'm largely an outsider to the inner workings of the comittee, but I have been involved with trials for eleven years, and I care about the sport.

My concern in all this is that BiketrialUK should be an independant body. It should be free to pick and choose it's suppliers, rules, committee and so on, and do so without interference from an outside organisation.

With the removal of funds going to BiketrialUK and instead going direct to the ACU (Free BIU licences, mandatory ACU licences), it appears this freedom has been removed. Is this the case?

Is BiketrialUK now a nice name for ACU - Biketrial Department?

If this is the case, then what would happen if the ACU upped the cost of a licence to £100 per rider? Could BiketrialUK move away from the ACU to prevent riders being adversely affected?

Why can't the results from NBTC and Tyketrial events be included in a British Champs series, irrespective of who provides insurance as long as they're both running under the BIU?

Hi Everyone THIS IS MATTS DAD.

Matt is over in France hopefully to enjoy a weeks trouble free! Riding.

Thought I should just set the record straight a little bit better.

BikeTrial UK is independent; we obtain our insurance through the ACU.

The ACU are kind enough to let us use their facilities FREE of charge, as they do any organisation (that obtains their insurance through them) that meets to discuss issues of their sport.

They have covered the insurance issue on behalf of BikeTrial UK for quite some years, before they did it I am reliable told that it used to be done through a very loose summer fete's type of cover, god only knows what would have happened should there have been a claim!

In the World that we now live in where there is a long line of solicitors touting NO WIN NO FEE, it is massively important to make sure everyone is well covered.

Throughout my 30 years of Trialing experience I have taken part in many AMCA events, most of the Clubs that obtain insurance through AMCA have done so because they say it is cheaper.

Firstly is cheaper better or is more expensive better, personally I would rather go for the best cover available! Secondly most, (well at least in the South West) AMCA Clubs charge the same amount to enter as the ACU Clubs, where is the supposed saving for the rider?

Thirdly I as do most on the committee and that includes some people who have been around for some time are concerned that the AMCA insurance is vastly inferior, many AMCA Clubs are beginning to go back to the ACu I know of a couple that have had some decidedly worrying experiences, lets face it insurance is the biggest waist of money in the World, that is until YOU need to make a claim!

Lastly I think the whole AMCA ACU thing is a complete red herring, what were actually talking about and have been since the very start of this thread is one of democracy

It IS A FACT that Barbara Wright resigned her post as secretary in January and I would completely agree with everyone that says how much she has done for the sport, you are completely right she has, BUT she resigned last year during May (I have letter signed from her resigning back then) as she was not happy at the time and was talked back into staying on as secretary. With this in mind when she resigned on the 14th January it was discussed whether it was prudent under the circumstances to accept the resignation and it was sadly agreed that the committee could not be held to ransom every time something didn't go Barbara's or any one else’s way, I hope you know what I mean and I mean no disrespect or insult in my statement.

So after a respectful pause where no one offered to take up the post I offered my name forward on a temporary basis and the committee accepted this.

What now causes the problem is that Mr. Eyre, Mrs. Wright and Mr. Savage decided to set up a NEW Championship, which TOTALLY EXCLUDED 3 CLUBS unless the 3 CLUBS did as they wished, now I ask all of you is that being held to ransom or what? Mrs. Wright at the time of her resignation was the webmaster of the BIKETRIAL UK web site, so as far as the Committee of BIKETRIAL UK are aware all that has been posted since the 14th January has been done by Mrs. Wright maybe she could confirm this!

So all the stuff that you've been spoon-fed over the last 2 months form that web site is NOT from the BIKETRIAL UK Committee, how democratic is that?

At this point the committee of BIKETRIAL UK could have just lay down and died, but why should we, why should anyone, you are all saying we should talk, and that's we've been trying to do for the last 2 months!

It's only now when the International powers have seen all the evidence and have recognised Barry Deeks as BIU Delegate and all that stand on the same committee as being BikeTrial UK, that Mrs. Wright Mr. Eyre and Mr. Savage have started to talk, unfortunately most of this has been done through this forum, which I think is a bit of a sad thing.

Lots have things have been said and LOADS of Dirty washing has been aired in public, I'm not at all surprised at what must think of US ALL!!!!!

We have extended the hand of friendship and as a democratically elected committee will continue to do so, even when many of us especially my family and me are spoken about in such VICIOUS, THREATANING and DEROGATORY ways.

When I have posted I have said it's me Wayne, do you truly think that I will sit back and be slagged off by a chap much younger than myself? Do you think that I will let lies be thorn around about my son or myself? How can some one list and make statements about events and meetings if they were not present, yet when I or Matt defend ourselves we come under more abuse, I ask those of you out there are these the sort of people that you want running your sport?, Have Mr. Savgae Mrs. Wright Mr. Eyre come to you as a committee? You will have read the rule book sent out they will choose who stands on the committee, they choose who runs a Championship, they decide a protest, make sure you don't disagree or protest you may not like the outcome!

Once again I will list, we have asked NBTC That's the club that Mrs. Wright is the secretary of, to run a British Championship round at Blackpool moon rocks on the date they have listed for there own Championship.

We have asked NBTC Scotland to run a round of the British Championship on the date at Fort William that they have listed as a round of there Championship and I now on behalf of the BikeTrial UK Committee ask Tyke Trials to run a round of the British BikeTrial Championship on the 12th August a date already listed by them as a round of their Championship, this would entitle those Clubs to have a vote on the BikeTrial UK committee the same as everyone else with the same democratic rights as the other clubs.

That Lads and lasses will give you a 7 round Championship, I would imagine that the committee would say with 5 or 6 to count, BUT THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE VOTED ON from as far North as Scotland, Matt wants to ride to as far South as Devon and as far East as Hook Woods.

Why have Essex got 2 rounds, well when at the depths of the Crisis instigated by people just not talking we The BikeTrial Uk committee agreed a Championship, Dave Bradley said that he was happy to run 2 rounds, (West of England did last year) and it was agreed that Hook Woods was a great venue, It has been booked a permit has been obtained and the Trial is ready to go, many of you may know that this venue does not come cheap and to cancel now would have serious repercussions I believe for EBTC.

So it's up to NBTC Scotland Tyke Trials and NBTC if you as you say want to talk and are all for the sport, rejoin the fold so to speak and lets stop all this petty bitching, points scoring and one-upmanship, lets give YOU riders the biggest British Championship you've seen

The Committee have been working behind the scenes on several other exciting proposals that we hope to bring to the Trials Forum that we have planned for April.

Finally one last thing I will do my best not to use this Forum as a soap box to share my views on the goings on between us all, I will however defend both myself and my family against lies and threats made about us, I dare say when Matt gets back he will defend himself as well. I have got a new Forum name of my own, "BikeTrial UK Secretary" though I am not validated yet, if anyone wants to drop me a line off line (how weird does that sound?) you can email me on BikeTrialuk @btinternet.co.uk or it might be .com it's late and I need to work tomorrow.

Hope we can mend this rift between the 2 committee's

Phil Tupman ( BikeTrial UK Secretary)

[F-Stop Junkie]

Thought I should just set the record straight a little bit better.

BikeTrial UK is independent; we obtain our insurance through the ACU.

The ACU are kind enough to let us use their facilities FREE of charge, as they do any organisation (that obtains their insurance through them) that meets to discuss issues of their sport.

It IS A FACT that Barbara Wright resigned her post as secretary in January and I would completely agree with everyone that says how much she has done for the sport, you are completely right she has, BUT she resigned last year during May (I have letter signed from her resigning back then) as she was not happy at the time and was talked back into staying on as secretary.

Phil, I'm not disputing the quality of the ACU's insurance - or indeed their experience, as they're a widely respected body who have done a lot of good work for a long time. I'm also not questioning if Barbara resigned or not - you were at the meeting, not me.

What I am questioning is that BiketrialUK is truely independent. If the ACU is the club registered with the European Biketrial Union constitution (effectively the European arm of the BIU) on behalf of UK riders, then we are in a position where BiketrialUK can not move away from the ACU without also distancing themselves from the EBU and BIU. The ACU therefore 'owns' BiketrialUK. Doubly so if riders are paying for ACU licences and not BIU ones - which takes money away from BiketrialUK, and gives it to the ACU. Minutes posted here from the ACU's own website already state that they have effectively overruled BiketrialUK on a matter of the regulations added to the their handbook. That doesn't sound very independent to me.

[Matt_Tupman]

Phil, I'm not disputing the quality of the ACU's insurance - or indeed their experience, as they're a widely respected body who have done a lot of good work for a long time. I'm also not questioning if Barbara resigned or not - you were at the meeting, not me.

What I am questioning is that BiketrialUK is truely independent. If the ACU is the club registered with the European Biketrial Union constitution (effectively the European arm of the BIU) on behalf of UK riders, then we are in a position where BiketrialUK can not move away from the ACU without also distancing themselves from the EBU and BIU. The ACU therefore 'owns' BiketrialUK. Doubly so if riders are paying for ACU licences and not BIU ones - which takes money away from BiketrialUK, and gives it to the ACU. Minutes posted here from the ACU's own website already state that they have effectively overruled BiketrialUK on a matter of the regulations added to the their handbook. That doesn't sound very independent to me.

Dear F-Stop.

I can see where the confusion has arisen from.

Anthony Rew was asked by the ACU to look into and update the BikeTrial UK rules that are in the ACU Handbook, it had come to their attention that Clubs, (and by this I mean far more than 1) had been using addaptations of rules that where not written in the Handbook.

Now (unfortunately this involves insurance) should a club run an event outside the rules written in the handbook the insurers would have all the reasons in the world to imply that as the rules where not adhered to so the organising club where "neglegent in there actions," Mr.Rew listened and looked into at what Clubs where doing and "Builtin" a set of rules that would allow clubs to run rules that differed from those stated by the BIU

(I would ask anyone to read article 40 in the BIU World rules) that states

"BIUArt. 40 NATIONAL TECHNICAL RULES

Every country is authorized to publicate its own technical rules; however, they must be different from the International ones. Such technical rules are only valid for the National events."

This means that the addition of these rules means that Clubs are FULLY Insured.

I'm not just talking about types of riding, but also riders being allowed to ride in classes above the ones that they would at National or International events, the fact that riders don't always adhere to the clothing rule, the gears rule Etc.

The ACU have a duty of care to make sure that clubs that are under it's "umbrella of cover" are running their (I mean the Clubs) sport in such accordance.

Mr. Rew over a period of time repeatedly spoke to members of the committee, to gain views and feedback, but some couldn't see past the "different style of " issue and stonewalled it. By this time, time was running out the ACU Handbook needs to go to press ( It should be noted that the BIU most years release the rules for the year after the ACU rule book comes out)

The addition of the extra set of rules was therefore placed in the Handbook (I know that many of you don't worry or dare I say care about this stuff), but as i said in my previous post "Insurance is a waste of money until you need to claim", so basically now your covered, should a Club run a CLUB Event outside those rules written in the BikeTrial International Rule book, they can.

The Committe of BikeTrial Uk concedes that this addition has caused some uncertainty and have agreed that it would be best left out of next years handbook, that will however mean that turning up with the wrong type of clothing AND your going home!

Those excellent young riders turning up at a club Trial and hoping to ride a harder route to practice for British And World Rounds and you won't be allowed to!

No more turning a blind eye and letting the little kids push through a White route section for a three! Etc.

Personally I thought the inclusion of these "EXTRA CLUB RULES" would both increase this Countries chances of more silverware at International level, whilst also "Bringing on" the next crop of young riders I thought this was great for "Inclusion" as do others, But if as a whole the Clubs and riders feel differently then the additional club rules have not been set in stone and never were.

As far as taking money away from BikeTrial Uk, this was thoroughly discussed at the February 24th Meeting.

As a committee comitted to BikeTrialing in the UK we are happy that we are more than sufficiently funded, wishing to keep as much of the monies in the "CLUBS" hands, just how much cash does BIKETRIAL UK NEED to have stashed in it's bank account? We are happy that the plans that have been made are more than affordable, National Levies have been reduced, should BikeTrial Uk encounter EXTRA expenses then this can be delt with. We arn't here to spend YOUR Money, where here to help Riders and Clubs in there areas as well as Nationally.

As far as overruling BikeTrial Uk

" This was not possible due to the fact that the deadline for the Handbook had now been reached and it was therefore agreed that the changes should be implemented by the relevant Committee without further consultation."

I list the FULL minutes relating to THIS MATTER

"13. Disagreement had arisen between SOME members of Bike Trial UK and the ACU regarding amendments to the Bike Trial Standing Regulations. Attempts to discuss issues regarding the rule changes had not resolved the differences and Bike Trial UK wished the matter to be deferred until their AGM in January. This was not possible due to the fact that the deadline for the Handbook had now been reached and it was therefore agreed that the changes should be implemented by the relevant Committee without further consultation."

I really don't feel that the ACU are throwing their weight around on this one.

I hope that this has helped the whole BikeTrial comunity see that the BikeTrial UK committee are fully commited to YOU ALL as riders and will continue to listen to what you want and at the same time protecting you all, believe me there's more that goes on behind the scenes than you probably care to know, don't whatever you do ask me about Child Protection that's a whole new can of worms that I suppose many people think isn't worth the worry, but we do and as with so amny other points will continue to.

Phil Tupman (BikeTrial UK Secretary)

[F-Stop Junkie]

Thank you Phil for your full explanation, it's certainly appreciated.

So to clarify, it is BiketrialUK which is a member of the EBU constitution, and not the ACU?

[Badboy]

That is correct Chris.

We use ACU for insurance, thats pretty much it.