Death And Mourning.

[Has anyone seen my shoe?]

Let them say and think what they want

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I'm in an unusual position for this thread. On Sunday my university supervisor, who I've known and been close to for the past three years, was killed in a kite surfing accident. He was only 30 and had only got married about 4 months ago. It was a major shock and I guess cos I haven't been so close to a death before it really hit me hard. It hurt so much when I first found out and for at least 24 hours afterwards and it's only slowly starting to sink in now. The funeral's tomorrow and I still can't believe he's gone. I guess it will take a long time to fully come to terms with it and fully mourn. He was the only reason I got a first in my degree and the only reason I've been given the opportunity to do my postgrad and now he's gone.

In answer to the question though... I really don't think it would be good or healthy not to feel bad after the loss of a loved one. If you didn't feel bad you wouldn't be able to value life and think about how things might affect others. Having lost Charlie, it's made me think a lot about things and I think in the long run will make me value life more and become a better person. It's also given me new drive to finish my EngD to the best of my abilities so I can accredit him and dedicate my Thesis to his memory (I, along with one of my friends, were the first postgrad students he ever supervised). I think that without feeling the pain of this tragedy I would be in a far worse situation...

Odd question though... Ben you really ought to sign up to some psychology/theology forums...

Dave

[Krisboats]

If i had the choice i would like to skip morning, but i still wouldn't. Mourning is being sad for something thats been lost. I'm sad if i lose an M & M and the dog finds it before i do.... in a way, thats mourning. The fact that i lost the M & M teaches me to be more careful with them in future, and i enjoy them more because i try to savour the moment of eating them incase they were to go. Eventually at some point i'll get careless and lose another one and i'll be careful and appreciate them more again.

In a strange way this kind of applies to people as well, though on a bigger and more sensitive scale. When a loved one dies, you mourn for them, other feel the same and together you find comfort in each other and it brings you closer together. It reminds you to value your time with your loved ones while they're around, and i think if i didn't mourn, i wouldn't feel sad for their loss and i would lose the ability to appreciate people while their still around.

Eventually i'd get to the point when this hypothetical "quick way out" reduces me to the point where i couldn't care less if someone died, which i think is disrespectful in itself. I know that my loved ones would feel upset if i couldn't care if they died and so, despite it being painful for a while, its something that i feel is neccessary to grow and become a better person.

[delusional]

Let them say and think what they want

I never tried to stop anyone saying or thinking anything. But such comments should not be allowed to pass without, well, comment. If no-one says anything then such comments and views begin to become acceptable, and that is utterly unacceptable.

First they came for the socialists,

and I did not speak out

because I was not a socialist.

...

[Si-man]

Just because people hold an opinion doesn't make it correct. I'm well aware that people hold these opinions, yet it continues to shock me that they consider it appropriate to voice them so casually.

That I accept they exist doesn't mean I have to accept that they shall always exist and let them pass without comment.

Why should I not say anything?

I got asked if i was black, what is that to do with me not feeling much guilt and why i didnt mourn when my grandad died?

Im not going to keep my mouth shut just to make people happy.

Theres a term called freedom of speech.

[Si-man]

Just because people hold an opinion doesn't make it correct. I'm well aware that people hold these opinions, yet it continues to shock me that they consider it appropriate to voice them so casually.

That I accept they exist doesn't mean I have to accept that they shall always exist and let them pass without comment.

Why should I not say anything?

I got asked if i was black, what is that to do with me not feeling much guilt and why i didnt mourn when my grandad died?

Im not going to keep my mouth shut just to make people happy.

Theres a term called freedom of speech.

[Si-man]

Just because people hold an opinion doesn't make it correct. I'm well aware that people hold these opinions, yet it continues to shock me that they consider it appropriate to voice them so casually.

That I accept they exist doesn't mean I have to accept that they shall always exist and let them pass without comment.

Why should I not say anything?

I got asked if i was black, what is that to do with me not feeling much guilt and why i didnt mourn when my grandad died?

Im not going to keep my mouth shut just to make people happy.

Theres a term called freedom of speech.

[Fishy]

My grandad died about 18 months ago, and I didn't feel anything. I know it sounds bad, but I really didn't. It was weird because I felt bad that I didn't. If that makes sense...

[Tomm]

Going back to the original question, I think I would probably use the machine. I'm quite a simple chap and to be honest I don't have the best grasp of emotion, but in my eyes we are simply in pursuit of happiness. Whatever form that takes - endorphins, achievement, friendship etc - that's what we're all aiming for ultimately. I guess perhaps if you mourn for someone, you'll feel all the better for it eventually, naturally.

So if this machine would make you happy, then yes. If if was happiness with string attached (E.g. happy for a while then a come-down with guilt etc) then you'd have to weigh it up. I don't really think you owe it to anyone else to be sad, that seems like a weird concept to me.

[1a2bcio8]

Odd question though... Ben you really ought to sign up to some psychology/theology forums...

Dave

Yes perhaps you're right there. I have considered it but have thus far been too lazy to do so. In regards to your other statements, do you not think you would still be able to appreciate your supervisor from a position of happiness? Does being happy after a death negate feelings about somebody? or are you required to feel sad in order to do so; to give meaning to their life?

I never tried to stop anyone saying or thinking anything. But such comments should not be allowed to pass without, well, comment. If no-one says anything then such comments and views begin to become acceptable, and that is utterly unacceptable.

First they came for the socialists,

and I did not speak out

because I was not a socialist.

...

I also think that certain statements in this post seem ignorant but I'm not sure your anger achieves what it desires? The statements are not unacceptable in themselves even if you personally find them unacceptable. I always feel like a pedantic knob saying that but I think we all forget that sometimes. I know definitely do, to an embarrasing extent, regarding past posts. I think the other thing worth considering is that you may be being hypocritical? Do you, or have you ever made generalisations or inferences about a certain social group? or even an individual? This is no different if you have, it's just that this particular social group involved here has 'offically' been, in some sense, designated a no generalisation group. It's an irony I always find interesting when people I know abhor racism but love to indulge in another kind of ism, like classism; the word 'chavs' instantly springs to mind regarding my friends. Not saying anything specific about you. Perhaps you're not a hypocrit though? I don't know, although I've never met anyone who wasn't a hypocrit. I did it the other day. I judged a friend for behaving in a way which I then ironically behaved the next day

I'm not saying don't disagree with people; in fact I'm not telling you to do anything but maybe just bear in mind you're probably the same as them in some sense?

I don't really think you owe it to anyone else to be sad, that seems like a weird concept to me.

Ah, the ego security of shared opinion This was what I was getting at. I think people feel that they should mourn the loss of somebody. I believe it follows from convention, for whatever reason. We grow up witnessing the 'correct' way of responding to death and then feel if we don't follow that standard line, we obviously don't care. This can lead to guilt as some people have stated. I'm in no way saying it's bad to feel sorrowful about the death of someone you know. Just that perhaps, is it neccesarily a 'bad' thing for any of us if we are able to remove the negativity of it? I suspect if you answer yes, a lot of your opinion may be based on the 'rules' of society. I could be wrong though.

I think that I could love the memories of somebody just as much regardless of if I mourned them or not. I also think I could consider the lifes of other people without the worry of feeling bad following their death. In fact I find it suggestive that the fear of guilt or mourning driving your consideration of life actually means you think less of life. Consideration of life motivated by death or a consideration of life motivated by life? I choose the latter.

Thanks everyone who replied.

Mucho appreciated

[dave85]

Dipping my toe in dangerous water here; I'm no philosophist so this argument may not hold up....

Could you not have an inverted case of what you propose, that when you gain something, you feel sadness? If you felt sad everytime you achieved a goal, you'd stop doing it. Feeling sad and considering what you could lose stops an awful lot of people taking bad choices in life. If you felt unmoved or even happy about the loss of a life, what motivation would there be to prevent it?

Personally, I find the sadness after a death is useful. It lets everyone else know you dont want to be fussed over, so you can ponder on what's just happened and look to the future. When I'm stuck on a problem at work, I think of the men now deceased who have taught me things, think about the way they worked, even the way they spoke. It brings back a feeling of grief but often provides an answer. I dont know why, but applying the same thoughts to a living person doesnt have the same results.

[delusional]

Why should I not say anything?

I got asked if i was black, what is that to do with me not feeling much guilt and why i didnt mourn when my grandad died?

Im not going to keep my mouth shut just to make people happy.

Theres a term called freedom of speech.

I don't have a problem with you saying you're not black, I had a problem with him asking you if you were based upon your previous comments and I had a problem with you saying "If i was black, id be f**ked cause i dont like blacks".

If you want to debate that with me we can do it somewhere else. I think I've hijacked this thread too much now.

I also think that certain statements in this post seem ignorant but I'm not sure your anger achieves what it desires? The statements are not unacceptable in themselves even if you personally find them unacceptable. I always feel like a pedantic knob saying that but I think we all forget that sometimes. I know definitely do, to an embarrasing extent, regarding past posts. I think the other thing worth considering is that you may be being hypocritical? Do you, or have you ever made generalisations or inferences about a certain social group? or even an individual? This is no different if you have, it's just that this particular social group involved here has 'offically' been, in some sense, designated a no generalisation group. It's an irony I always find interesting when people I know abhor racism but love to indulge in another kind of ism, like classism; the word 'chavs' instantly springs to mind regarding my friends. Not saying anything specific about you. Perhaps you're not a hypocrit though? I don't know, although I've never met anyone who wasn't a hypocrit. I did it the other day. I judged a friend for behaving in a way which I then ironically behaved the next day

I'm not saying don't disagree with people; in fact I'm not telling you to do anything but maybe just bear in mind you're probably the same as them in some sense?

You speak a lot of sense man. It's likely I responded with more vehemence than I would normally, but I've been reading a lot of Frantz Fanon today and was pretty riled up. Not the right time for someone to start making racist comments where I can see them! Still, I stand by what I said. While we can look at any statement and say that in and of itself it is not unacceptable, we say that from within a society that we can deconstruct and ultimately say is entirely fictitious. Everything we surround ourselves with is a fiction and can't be said to have any inherent truth, but within that framework some things can be said to be "bad".

I wouldn't say I'm entirely free of hypocrisy (although I do try), but I'm certainly a long way from being overtly racist. Even if I were a complete hypocrit, does that make what I say any less valid? Still, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Ah, the ego security of shared opinion This was what I was getting at. I think people feel that they should mourn the loss of somebody. I believe it follows from convention, for whatever reason. We grow up witnessing the 'correct' way of responding to death and then feel if we don't follow that standard line, we obviously don't care. This can lead to guilt as some people have stated. I'm in no way saying it's bad to feel sorrowful about the death of someone you know. Just that perhaps, is it neccesarily a 'bad' thing for any of us if we are able to remove the negativity of it? I suspect if you answer yes, a lot of your opinion may be based on the 'rules' of society. I could be wrong though.

I think that I could love the memories of somebody just as much regardless of if I mourned them or not. I also think I could consider the lifes of other people without the worry of feeling bad following their death. In fact I find it suggestive that the fear of guilt or mourning driving your consideration of life actually means you think less of life. Consideration of life motivated by death or a consideration of life motivated by life? I choose the latter.

I think you're right about society influencing our opinion on death, and was going to post something to this effect earlier. Certainly in some other cultures death is not seen as the negative thing it is for us, it must be said that this is largely a religious influence from what I know though, so that obviously has bearing. I'd be willing to bet there has been a society at some point that has not collectively believed in an after life yet has not mourned death however.

In a society built around these principles I don't think it has any negative affect on the perception of life, in fact, as you say, it could well make life a more positive thing. However we live our lives with the shadow of death always hanging over us, no matter what you do there's always this darkness lying in wait that you can't avoid. It's almost as if we can't accept the fact that we'll all die some day and have to spend all our time running from it, I guess our society is collectively very arrogant and we can't accept this factor that we really have no control over. If society as a whole could come better to terms with the fact that each individual life will end then it may be that people would live happier lives. However, because we do perceive death in this way I think it would be dangerous to override the negative emotions we associate with it. No matter how effective the machine at removing the negative, I think there would always be damage done... something like a hole torn in you to be rather cliched about it. I think it would cheapen our value of life as well, in many ways I think we feel more horror at death than we do wonder at life.

Generally, if I had the option to do this I don't think I would. I may use it in small doses to give myself a break from the mourning if the pain was too much, but I wouldn't make it all go away. I'd even say I would somewhat appreciate the mourning... I imagine the fact that I appreciate it is culturally imbibed, but then so are most things about me, that's no reason for me to reject them.

[Tomm]

Could you not have an inverted case of what you propose, that when you gain something, you feel sadness? If you felt sad everytime you achieved a goal, you'd stop doing it. Feeling sad and considering what you could lose stops an awful lot of people taking bad choices in life. If you felt unmoved or even happy about the loss of a life, what motivation would there be to prevent it?

Perhaps, therefore, guilt is an evolutionary mechanism to prevent deaths happening again. We are all wired to feel pain with loss, in order that we will avoid doing the same thing again? So maybe it's nothing to do with society.

I wonder whether chimps or other animals feel a sense of loss at the death of their friends. I guess this might tell us whether it is more of a cultural issue or an evolutionary one. A quick google suggests that perhaps it's the latter:

When I first read about that story, I was amazed. So I began to talk to people in the zoo world. And there's been a very interesting transformation lately in how deaths in great ape families are managed. When an ape dies, it's becoming a regular practice to allow the family to approach the body and say goodbye. If the ape simply disappears, it's much harder for them to cope.

From: http://www.salon.com/books/int/2007/01/31/king/index1.html

Do you, or have you ever made generalisations or inferences about a certain social group? or even an individual? This is no different if you have, it's just that this particular social group involved here has 'offically' been, in some sense, designated a no generalisation group. It's an irony I always find interesting when people I know abhor racism but love to indulge in another kind of ism, like classism; the word 'chavs' instantly springs to mind regarding my friends.

A bit off-topic I know, but I thought I'd commented on this. Have you ever seen the Chris Rock stand-up where he talks about racism. He says he loves black people but he hates Niggers. By 'Nigger' he means that he hates the gang culture, the people with guns etc. I don't find him particularly funny, but he's got a point. I don't like scally kids who run around causing trouble and starting fights. That's not to say I dislike everyone from a lower social class. My point is that calling someone a chav isn't the same as classism. But you're right, I guess everyone is a little hypocritical.

[manuel]

Its a good question - very difficult to answer.

Im with the guy who put across the inverse (sort of). If you never feel sad about death, your opinion probably will end up as death = a good thing. However this only really works if youve always felt good about death ?

But if the question is to me personally then hell yes id use it. When people Ive known have died it has really screwed me over - I get very confused about what im feeling and what i should be doing with myself to get on with things. So this machine would do the trick for me. Assuming all it does is make you feel all the positives about the person who died - and allows rememberance (which I guess is where mourning leads to - positive rememberance).

So I guess my answer is - you dont have to feel bad when someone dies. why should you ? I dont want people moping about after ive buggered off ....

although thinking some more - when someone really really old dies naturally - there is no real sadness about it, sadness seems to be worse when its unexpected and to the young ? In which case its more a kind of shock thing and reflects your own mortality and fears (might just be me there) wheras in the oldie case you know you die at an old age and you can accept the death - no sadness. In which case feeling sad about death gives you great perspective on your own life and keeps you on the rails. so maybe the machine is a bad plan. I guess then that there is no "should" feel sad - you just do ?

arrrg

[Has anyone seen my shoe?]

I never tried to stop anyone saying or thinking anything. But such comments should not be allowed to pass without, well, comment. If no-one says anything then such comments and views begin to become acceptable, and that is utterly unacceptable.

First they came for the socialists,

and I did not speak out

because I was not a socialist.

...

Maybe they were expressing the views in the hope of getting a reaction like that (not saying you were Si-Man) and you've just given them what they want.

[Si-man]

Sorry about the 3 posts, internet went mental.

[Tomm]

I think that I could love the memories of somebody just as much regardless of if I mourned them or not. I also think I could consider the lifes of other people without the worry of feeling bad following their death. In fact I find it suggestive that the fear of guilt or mourning driving your consideration of life actually means you think less of life. Consideration of life motivated by death or a consideration of life motivated by life? I choose the latter.

I think that sort of thing is the norm in other cultures. Particularly in far eastern cultures, the funeral is often more of a celebration than anything else. Which is probably a good thing, although I think in this instance it relates to the passage on to another, better, life. If you don't believe in heaven (or similar) then this is difficult.

Sorry about the 3 posts, internet went mental.

That's OK, just don't say things like that again

[Trebor]

My first real experience of death was when DJ passed. I never knew the guy that well, but I'd spoken to him quite a bit and would consider him a friend. As soon as I read that he was gone I cried. I cried and I cried. As unavoidable as it is, my reaction is ultimately due to the kind of society that I grew up in. Death and 'loss' of someone is a terrible thing. I guess it's kind of a 'pre-back step' of emotion when compared with other cultures, in that we'll feel terrible after a person has died and then come to terms with it, remember them for the good times etc. Some cultures immediatly feel that the person has gone on to a better place and they take pride in that and feel good. It's not avoiding the issue as such, it's just looking at it from a different perspective. They're not robots.

I'd say that I was a pretty emotional guy. So I don't think I'd want to avoid emotion, or replace it with another emotion which, by my own perception, doesn't show how I'd feel about something. I take pride in sadness in some ways, in that it allows reflection, I'm more passive and I like to be in that state of mind sometimes.

It's a tough one, Ben. Btw, as I'm pretty sure you'll read this - Murcof were pretty cool, very atmospheric! I think I prefer BOC though

[1a2bcio8]

I think perhaps it is eastern culture which has influenced my thoughts on this; especially zen buddhism. The idea that you never begin living or dying. How do you define the beginning of a life? Existence seems like change to me; change thinging. Change has just thinged into my human form and it will thing out of that form. We end up with a difficulty, regarding our perception of 'life', from the fact that the rules of the word get confused with the seeming rules of existence. The word 'life' has a boarder that surrounds its meaning. Something is either life or it is not life. Yet this doesn't, I think, properlly describe the situation of the world and the things which we describe as living. In this sense, everything is life, just a differing form, relative to how it has thinged. In that sense we never die, we just change.

The word also describes something static about what it refers to. Yet we are always changing, even when you describe something as a 'life'. Everything is better described by a verb rather than a noun. In that sense we are constantly dying and being reborn. I am not the person I was five years ago or even two minutes ago. In the sense of words, that person is dead. We are different life-forms in each moment. The words confuse the actuality of our situation. If we don't employ the words, we don't see life or death, just change. We also see ourselves as a part of everything else. Thus we are one and same.

I'd like to reply to everyone but I don't have time I'm afraid. College work needs to be done and I could spend a long time discussing this. Cheers for all your replies though. You chaps gave me more to think about

Yeh I agree with you on that Raub. I've yet to find other ambient that I have enjoyed quite to the same extent. Did you manage to check out Ten and Tracer; they're very much like BOC. If you know of other ambient groups I'd be well up for some suggestions?

Edited February 16, 2007 by rowly

[Christophe']

I've got a hypothetical question which I'm very curious as to how you might answer.

Basically the idea regards a device of the future which which is able to alter your nervous sytem or mind so that you may experience whatever feelings you wish to. You can use it to feel as amazing as you want to. The question is, if somebody very close to you were to die, would you be happy to use the device to make yourself feel completely alright with their death, so that you didn't have to deal with the process of mourning or sorrow?

In other words, do you think you would prefer to not feel any pain about the death of someone you love? or do you think that you should go through a process of mourning, as though you owe it to the loved one to feel bad about their death?

Cheers if you answer.

Ben.

Difficult question that, Ben.

There isnt 1 ansewr unfortunatly.

good one though

[Simon]

What the f**k, why did you post then?

Hell, even so, why did you need to quote the whole post to say it?

[Christophe']

sorry to "simon" whoever u are????? ( who are you? doesnt mean anything? )

It was a deep meaning reply to Bens question. ( sorry if u didnt get it :$ )

maybe ben knows me?

like u dont!

Bit of a rash reply me thinks.

ive got nothing against u dude

its a bit a gay if trials forum seniors cant hold it together

Edited February 16, 2007 by VillageDave

[Tomm]

I think he was just saying that there's not much point in replying to a topic to tell the world that you have no opinion on it...

It wasn't a 'deep' answer I'm afraid.

[Christophe']

haha im sucked in now,,,shouldnt be , but am.

1 I never said , or hinted that i didnt have an opinion.

2 It was deep , we could talk about it forever . everyone is different so why compare?

its got to said,,,why are u thinking about mourning

everyone dies

i got over the fact that people close to me will die........be it distant freinds or relatives

for about 2 years ive been scared shitless about how im going to die! let alone anyone else

[Joe_Elding]

Not being rude but do you have to do the,,, thing.

And also the whole double spaced line thing. Gets a bit annoying.