Let's Get Technical

[boon racoon]

this question really really bugs me and i talk about it a lot with my peers. what do you think.

if you are blind from birth and have never seen a spot of sunlight (or anything) in your entire life..do you lack the ability to have an imagination or to dream things?

does the mind already have images of things inside from birth, or is it only built up by what we see around us.

if not, surely the only thing a blind person is capable of imagining or dreaming is a total mass of black?

can a person blind from birth close their eyes and imagine or dream things like we can?

your thoughts...

[nickyw]

Damm,That's a hard one...In my opinion they wont have image's at all of anything in there imagination.But it's just like saying,How are they supposed to get a ard' on from a girl if they carnt see them,But can hear them?

Edited November 18, 2006 by nickyw

[Ben Jones]

Would they even know what black is??

try and explain it as dark and they wouldn't know what your on about i suppose. To them black might as well be white.

Interesting one

[JT!]

Well they wouldn't know what colour is...

...nor would they know what black was.

[boon racoon]

when i said black i meant the equivalent of what blind people see in front of them (they still have physical eyes and the gubbins connected to their brains right?)

which i assume to be black just like when you have your eyes closed. even so they might not know it as "black"

[yoyoyo]

I suppose it's just the same as when you imagine something you've never seen.

Can't think of an example now. Typical really.

[spangler]

They dream sounds.

[Jay Jay]

They won't see 'Black' because they can't see anything! The only reason we see black when we close our eyes is because we are blocking out light. So therefore the may aswel not have eyes because they can't use them.

[Extreme_biker0]

Interesting question...

Blind people experience the world around them through feeling things and hearing things. They can sense the shapes of objects by touching them, and build up a model of it in their mind through that.

The model might not 'look' like it would if someone were to look at it, but they have an idea of what's in front of them, in 3d, just like we do by looking at it.

The idea for us, for example, of a cardboard box, is 1.brown 2. cuboid 3. got stuff in

I guess it's only brown that requires us having 'seen' before. The other descriptions are abstract principles which can be appreciated by the blind person. So the blind person thinks of a cardboard box as 2. cuboid 3 got stuff in.

So i guess they won't be able to appreciate colours, that's all. I'll bet they can visualise* shapes and stuff, just without any of the things added in that come from seeing, like colour.

* visualise kind of implies sight, maybe 'understand' or 'appreciate' is a better word

Edited November 18, 2006 by Extreme_biker0

[Willsey]

my thought would be that they would make up something, through sound. Not like an image, but more as an object, and blind people also learn to appreciate the sounds and smells of things, and see a more beautiful world in some respects than we do. It shows us what we take for grantage.

[Extreme_biker0]

my thought would be that they would make up something, through sound. Not like an image, but more as an object, and blind people also learn to appreciate the sounds and smells of things, and see a more beautiful world in some respects than we do. It shows us what we take for grantage.

How can it be a more beautiful world, never seeing your girlfriend naked?

Gutted

[Todge]

Nothings stopping them from imagining smells and sound though?

[Krisboats]

I dunno, i'd imagine they concentrate more on the structural shape of something when they imagine it, i'd think that they have a much better perception on the shape of things through feel and the way they mentally project that "image" into their brain.

I guess, i'd imagine them to mentally visualise things like a monochrome picture, no defining colour but a slight change in tone to help them distinguish between different parts of their mental image.

Without having ever asked a blind person i wouldn't know though, anybody know a blind person that wont be offended if you ask them?

Can blind people draw well?

[Shaun H]

Why don't we find one and ask them?

So i guess they won't be able to appreciate colours, that's all. I'll bet they can visualise* shapes and stuff, just without any of the things added in that come from seeing, like colour.

* visualise kind of implies sight, maybe 'understand' or 'appreciate' is a better word

I reckon visualise is the exact word to use. How do you think blind people remember their way around places? It's certainly not through smell or sound! (and before some smartass says touch, blind people are perfectly capable of woalking through their houses without touching much at all)

EDIT:

Can blind people draw well?

Quick google:

Caption: In one of Kennedy’s early studies a woman, blind from birth, drew this picture of a horse.

Edited November 19, 2006 by Shaun H

[Si-man]

Ill ask my nan, shes blind

[Radfax]

i remeber asking a blind kid what he saw, because i always thought they would see red for some reason. he described it as a hard colour, and id think that is black?

I think they imagine things of what they think is going on around them, what they feel because you can get a vauge idea of what some thing looks like withought seeing it just toutching it so i think they dream of shapps and what they think is happening around them. i dunno

[Sam Nichols]

my thought would be that they would make up something, through sound. Not like an image, but more as an object

Are we still talking about humans here..? Or bats?

[Fish-Finger-er]

Ill ask my nan, shes blind

is she blind from birth though, if youve seen something, its likely stored, only if subconsciously in your memory. need some one whos been totally blind from birth.

[Gavyn.]

i suppose it's like when you read a decent book, you imagine things that you've never seen before things which are impossible, and then the film comes out and spoils it for you.

[fruitbat]

Damn this is a good question.

I think they do imagine things but from a blind persons perspective.

We imagine things based on images we have stored over years of 'normal' life.

If you were blind you will build up images of things from touch, if you were blind and held a dog for a few minutes you would get a pretty good idea of what shape it took, the same applies for most other things. The sounds blind people hear will allow them to relate sounds to shapes and so on, so using these they can have a pretty good imagination, the only thing they won't be able to use is the colours and in depth features of things which resricts how they imagine things.

If someone describes something to you that you have never seen before you imagine what it looks like in your head, its normally a totally wrong picture but its you imagining it, i suppose it will be the same for blind people.

Thats my opinion anyway

I dont think we'll ever know for sure but its gets you thinking

Frooty

[paolo]

I'm pretty sure they can see things in theire dreams, if they have a pretty damn good idea of the physical I'm pretty sure they could see it in a dream, I'm pretty sure they have an idea of what things can look like (like the drawing shown) so I don't see why they couldn't see things in theire minds...

[Krisboats]

I'm pretty sure they can see things in theire dreams, if they have a pretty damn good idea of the physical I'm pretty sure they could see it in a dream, I'm pretty sure they have an idea of what things can look like (like the drawing shown) so I don't see why they couldn't see things in theire minds...

I guess there'd be some things that they still wouldn't be able to imagine though. Using the horse again as an example, how could they feel how it runs... they would have no way of imagining how a horse runs or how it looks as it jumps. I guess they could hear how it runs though, but i don't know if thats enough for them to work it out.

[Mr Plod]

Good question. I've often thought about this...

Anyone ever seen the video of the kid who mastered echo sound? Really really impressive! Can play computer games, kicks arse in a pillow fight, and can detect anything really. I'll try find the link to the vid.

EDIT: Here you go. Blind kid very impressive.

Edited November 19, 2006 by College Boy

[1a2bcio8]

Dreams aren't exclusively limited to visual construction. In them you can experiencce immitations of touch, sound, smell, taste etc. I think the dreams of people that have always been blind will be composed only of those other senses that they have actually experienced. I think it's unlikely that someone whom has never experienced visual stimuli would be able to mimick it in any sense. Has anyone ever experienced in their mind/dream an animals sense that humans do not posses? I find it unlikely that they have, but who knows. Perhaps that analogy isn't very good. Perhaps sight experience is only one part of the visual process, as seperate from external stimuli, and the mind has some "internal" visual generating capability?

An interesting thing about people who gain sight but whom have never experienced sight is they have a tendency to get depressed with what they see, when sight is given to them. They have some abstract idea of what sight is like but when they acctually exerpiencce it there's a tendency not to like it. People even commit suicide over the conflict between expectation and actuality. I can understand this being that touch and sound usually have a relatively smooth and clean feel compared to the sight of things. If those are some of your main senses, you're probably going to expect sight to follow a similar line. Does this suggest that they've created an abstract "visual" idea of actual visual experience?

edit - saying that though, I have read about people being involved in certain practises such as yoga, astral projection, buddhism etc. having experienced things that were completely new, regarding sense experience of sight, hearing and touch, that were not extensions of what they have externally experienced before but entirely different and apparantly indescribable. Perhaps the brain generated these? Or perhaps it relates to other processes that might seem a bit far out to most.

Edited November 19, 2006 by rowly

[1a2bcio8]

I'd say the word visualise, despite what it seems to denote, actually means to "generate" whatever it might be that you are generating. You can "visualise" spacial awareness/movement etc. without seeing that awareness/movement. You probably all do this when riding.

Edited November 19, 2006 by rowly