Future Ideas For Bikes

[Jamie_Neal]

Just a few suggestions for discussion.

Bolt through hubs: I know most people tend to use bolt on now but why not use the 10mm bolt through (as on DH bikes)? Guaranteed not to move and stronger. Could even do 150mm spacing - 9/8spd casette and a dishless wheel.

Bottom Brackets: 100mm shell - Spanish size: Larger bearings, stiffer axle as supported better. Wider so it'll clear maguras.

Head tubes: 1 1/4" or 1 1/5": Why not increase the size a bit from 1 1/8"? Not much added weight but a shed load stronger.

What do you think?

More suggestions welcome........

[ben_travis]

i think a possible reason for this is weight : strength ratio.

in most frame cases they are strong enough. especially U6 aluminium. its fairly light but has superb strength IMO.

more material means more weight (generally). and we dont need the extra strength in the places you have mentioned

[Brian Bleech]

Just a few suggestions for discussion.

Bolt through hubs: I know most people tend to use bolt on now but why not use the 10mm bolt through (as on DH bikes)? Guaranteed not to move and stronger. Could even do 150mm spacing - 9/8spd casette and a dishless wheel.

Bottom Brackets: 100mm shell - Spanish size: Larger bearings, stiffer axle as supported better. Wider so it'll clear maguras.

Head tubes: 1 1/4" or 1 1/5": Why not increase the size a bit from 1 1/8"? Not much added weight but a shed load stronger.

What do you think?

More suggestions welcome........

I don't think 150mm wide spacing is needed on hub, the rules say the a minimum of 6 working gears are needed and not nine, plus more bikes will go single speed too! Stronger, better quality/designed rims are needed!

I totally agree with the bb thing - spanish/mid bb would be so much better for trials bikes, But i don't think 100mm bb shells are really needed!

A bigger headtube could be more useful to help make stronger forks for taps/hooks! But it would probably be a bad idea creating our own headtube standard!

[Jamie_Neal]

For the head tubes, we wouldn't be doing our own standard. 1 1/4" was around before 1 1/8" and 1 1/2" is being introduced now - e.g. manitou are doing it on their forks.

[Brian Bleech]

For the head tubes, we wouldn't be doing our own standard. 1 1/4" was around before 1 1/8" and 1 1/2" is being introduced now - e.g. manitou are doing it on their forks.

ok yeah 1 1/4 is now old and outdated and no-one makes it anymore, but that said it could be the perfect size for trials headtubes. Not to big, not to heavy! It is something that would have to be taken on by the majority of trials manufacturers to make it worthwhile!

You actually said 1 1/5 in your origional post But yeah didn't mission come in 1.5 headtube, maybe it could be useful for stronger forks, but the strength benefits would have have to outway the weight gains. Which it probably doesn't!

[poopipe]

I'm not sure you 'need' to go that big on the headttubes really - the weak link in forks is the fact they're ally-if you make the steerer stronger the legs'll just snap off instead.

I'm not entirely convinced by bolt on axles for strength purposes (you're not running pegs so how often are you going to bend or break an axle anyway?) but in terms of them being cooler etc. I like

I'm very much in favour of threadless BBs - my inclination would be to go for mid size, and increase the diameter of crank axles to hollow 19 or 22mm. I say mid rather than spanish because it's big enough to allow decent sized bearings around big fat axles - spanish isn't.

I'd very much like to see the end of cartridge BBs because they're a stupid, stupid idea.

[Bennnn]

Trials NEEDS REAL PARTS and FRAMES. I'm very sick of all this chinese made sh!t!

Some of the stuff may be decent, but it's still made in China which means that: the factories that make the products are allowed to emit tons of toxins into the environment (China doesn't have very good environment laws) and the workers make shit while Deng rakes in thousands.

Trials needs more companies like Heatsink, rider owned and make very high quality products. More companies like Leeson, Fresh Products, etc. Trials needs to be more like the bmx industry with higher quality goods at midline prices. You can get a great S&M frame (US made) for $350-400 while a Koxx frame (made in China by ping pong) costs $1200 a frame.

I don't think anything really innovative will come. Better parts are a must in my opinion.

Sorry for my rant.

[Onza Kieron]

Trials NEEDS REAL PARTS and FRAMES. I'm very sick of all this chinese made sh!t!

Some of the stuff may be decent, but it's still made in China which means that: the factories that make the products are allowed to emit tons of toxins into the environment (China doesn't have very good environment laws) and the workers make shit while Deng rakes in thousands.

Trials needs more companies like Heatsink, rider owned and make very high quality products. More companies like Leeson, Fresh Products, etc. Trials needs to be more like the bmx industry with higher quality goods at midline prices. You can get a great S&M frame (US made) for $350-400 while a Koxx frame (made in China by ping pong) costs $1200 a frame.

I don't think anything really innovative will come. Better parts are a must in my opinion.

Sorry for my rant.

I agree and I think that brakes, bb's and hubs need improvement, also chains lol, theres too much fear on the edge of a drop/gap currently.

[A!!]

Couldn't agree more

I think generally most bmx companys have it dialed, in the sense that many are rider owned and based and their companys aren't only to earn them selfs money but to help the bmx scene and provide the riders with what they want. Like a lot of the frames are made by relatively small companys, but yet they come out with very good frames where the hard graft really shows. And the way each independent manufacturer has a team of their own riders in order to promote their bikes and their sport at the same time, so it's a win win situation.

Personally i would prefer to have a frame built in England knowing that it isn't one of hundreds mass produced, and knowing that the frame has been made with care and attention with riding in mind. I'm not saying that the other companys aren't, as many the time they are made well, but it is just my opinion.

Other than that i think the only future parts that will stick will come from a trial and error approach, just like the koxx prototype thing, it might ride like a sack of sh*t or it might ride nice, and this will then determine for other companys the direction frame design should be taking.

I hope that made sense anyway

[paolo]

Most of that allready exists, I personally have a bolt-on axle on my 24". Just take a look over to the freeride and street MTB and BMX parts. Of course they might not be at "trials weight" but if your'e able to ride with a couple pounds more, it really opens doors. Especially for street riders (of course 24") because most of us aren't aiming to gap 10' rail to rail but are looking for flow more than inches, and our bikes take a beating because of the immense torsion forces, from spins, not found in other forms of riding.

[dwarrick]

steel brake mounts on the frames. they need a way so people stop stripping those buggers.

Edited September 30, 2006 by dwarrick

[Dan6061]

they need a way so people stop stripping those buggers.

They should just helicoil them from the start.

[Gazza]

Trials NEEDS REAL PARTS and FRAMES. I'm very sick of all this chinese made sh!t!

Some of the stuff may be decent, but it's still made in China which means that: the factories that make the products are allowed to emit tons of toxins into the environment (China doesn't have very good environment laws) and the workers make shit while Deng rakes in thousands.

Trials needs more companies like Heatsink, rider owned and make very high quality products. More companies like Leeson, Fresh Products, etc. Trials needs to be more like the bmx industry with higher quality goods at midline prices. You can get a great S&M frame (US made) for $350-400 while a Koxx frame (made in China by ping pong) costs $1200 a frame.

I don't think anything really innovative will come. Better parts are a must in my opinion.

Sorry for my rant.

I totally agree with you. This is one of the reasons I have started up my own company. Just wanted to give riders something different from the mass production bullshit.

But the thing is....custom build frames (in my case) do not bring any much profit. It costs me up to 15 times more to build a frame compared to Deng. But the retails are the same. Deng and his dealers in countries make a lot of money. Which is good for trials in some way. But I don't see quality there.

[ben_travis]

do yuo judge quality on mass production because it seems like some people do?

deng makes alot of bikes but they sell?! why? because people like to be different. when there was little choice on the market people complained, now there is shitloads of choice people complain?!

where is the sense in that.

what deng does is good for trials, and many of the components are good. He is being innovative and bring more ideas to the tabel (116mm stock dropouts, external BB's, extreme geometries) so where is the problem with this?

some poeple dont want to ride the same geometry whatever bike they ride, some like to try a different thing each time they change frame. and if it wasnt for koxx or deng then this choice probably wouldnt be available and many of the riders you see today wouldnt be riding.

SIMPLE AS. IM SICK OF FOLK DISSING DENG BECAUSE HE ACTS LIKE A BUSINESS. HE IS IN IT FOR MONEY AS WELL AS HIS LOVE OF TRIALS. YOU DONT GET ANYWHERE IN BUSINESS (OR MAKE A LIVING) WITHOUT EARNING MONEY, WHICH DENG IS OUT TO DO.

WILL EVERYONE GET OFF THE f**kING 'I HATE DENG BECAUSE OF THIS THIS THIS' BANDWAGON. ITS BORING NOW

[Synergy]

what ben said

thank f**k someone said that now. pain in arse hearing people moan about deng even though half of them are using his parts.

Edited September 30, 2006 by Synergy

[Balman]

thank f**k someone said that now. pain in arse hearing people moan about deng even though half of them are using his parts.

Amen who hasn't or dosent own a deng part if it weren't for deng and koxx other companys such as heatsink, ko, viz, onza and toxin ect wouldn't even exist or if they did it would not be any were near what they are today everything would be simmerler to the old school montys still. It is right that some of dengs parts are a bit naff but they are pushed through the extremes and its still a working progress and things are slowly picking up.

Jack.

[Tomm]

Trials NEEDS REAL PARTS and FRAMES. I'm very sick of all this chinese made sh!t!

Some of the stuff may be decent, but it's still made in China which means that: the factories that make the products are allowed to emit tons of toxins into the environment (China doesn't have very good environment laws) and the workers make shit while Deng rakes in thousands.

You gonna change your avatar then?

I didn't realise people actually hated Deng? It's just a bit of a joke and poking fun of all the different frames and colours he produces. Obviously it's all for money, but c'est la vie. Most people on here don't work, but when they do, I'll be very surprised if many do a job because they love it. Everyone has to earn money, and Deng is helping us out at the same time. If you don't like it then don't buy his stuff.

[Smallville]

I cant realy understand why people complain about the quality on the chinese parts. In general I think its good quality parts. But on the other hand how is the UK quality? Hope makes high quality parts that for sure but take Rover (english car manufactor I think) they make crappy cars with bad quality. The only time they where good was when Honda helped them out for a while. So I dont think we should say that all chinese parts are bad quality. For some years ago here in Sweden we laughed at Taiwainese part, they where cheap and crap. Today they are still cheap but the quality is mutch better, maybe they laugh at or Swedish Volvos today. Well anyway thats what I think, bit of topic but I had to say it.

[Token]

I think anyone who contributes to the trials scene deserves respect. I'd love to see some more smaller bike companies taking off here in the UK, choice seems very limited in comparison to the BMX scene (I know bmx'ing is alot more popular) but perhaps more companies here will drive up competition between them an then us (consumers/riders) will see new, different, parts coming out at cheaper prices which will hopefully promote the sport.

To be fair anyone looking to get into trials does have to have a fair bit of money in their pocket to start, I think thats a major put-off for kids.

EDIT: Tomm that fact of the day is sickening, especially when you see a pic of gay slug sex (i think their penises are the white thing)

Edited September 30, 2006 by Scopse

[Ali C]

they are not gay, both sexes have the external peni style organs

I want so see rims with some more thought put into them (the new echo rims seems cool) but rims made to suite tubless tyres or even trials specific tubless tyres, now that would be cool!

Also, while we're on about trials rims, so sort of progression on ceramic rims would be nice.

disk brakes can be improved a LOT, smaller fatter rotors with a reduced ratio (imagine moto trials) could be tested (might be crap for biketrials, but its worth trying) pad compounds can allways be improved on.

as for deng hating, I dont hate him or his products, but all these tgs kids who ride the same bikes doing the same thing gets on my goat. Would there still be that style of kid if deng wasnt around? what would english riding be like? I think its an interesting thought.

anyway, I cant hate deng too much as I do use two of his parts lol

[chrishayton]

they are not gay, both sexes have the external peni style organs

I want so see rims with some more thought put into them (the new echo rims seems cool) but rims made to suite tubless tyres or even trials specific tubless tyres, now that would be cool!

Also, while we're on about trials rims, so sort of progression on ceramic rims would be nice.

disk brakes can be improved a LOT, smaller fatter rotors with a reduced ratio (imagine moto trials) could be tested (might be crap for biketrials, but its worth trying) pad compounds can allways be improved on.

as for deng hating, I dont hate him or his products, but all these tgs kids who ride the same bikes doing the same thing gets on my goat. Would there still be that style of kid if deng wasnt around? what would english riding be like? I think its an interesting thought.

anyway, I cant hate deng too much as I do use two of his parts lol

ali 'attenborough' clarkson

[Gazza]

There is nothing bad about Deng. He has invested a lot into biketrials. I respect him very much.

But looking at the improvements in the DH and XC componentry industry I want those bits. Not just color-coded square-ish CNC bits.

Why do I have smooth welds on an XC bike and can't have it on a trials bike?

But there is a lot of progress anyway. 2 years ago all the frames were silver. Now, there is a choise of colous (black and white added).

[N.Wood]

We need a Mavic produced Maxtal alloy rim in widths between 38 and 47mm, with a ceramic coating.

That'd be badass.

Also, some improvements to Maguras to make them more trials specific would be good. Though the introduction of aftermarket levers is alleviating this problem.

1 brake compound that actually works awesomely. Rather than 100 that work ok.

This would be all i needed

[RobinJI]

what deng does is good for trials, and many of the components are good. He is being innovative and bring more ideas to the tabel (116mm stock dropouts, external BB's, extreme geometries) so where is the problem with this?

erm... not having a go at Deng, but he isn't really that innovative, 116mm stock dropouts was 24seven, external BB's were shimano, and extreme geometry was koxx, wheres the innovation in copying other people's ideas? saying that I cant think of any built in boosters before the echos, although maybe the XTPs? but i don't know if that was before or after. Deng is good for trials though, give a shit load of good parts for good prices, and often mixes a few good ideas together, to get a really got product, only real problem is that his anodized stuff is getting painfully boring.

Edited October 1, 2006 by Dont you Just Hate it When...

[Matthew_Gibson]

erm... not having a go at Deng, but he isn't really that innovative, 116mm stock dropouts was 24seven, external BB's were shimano, and extreme geometry was koxx, wheres the innovation in copying other people's ideas? saying that I cant think of any built in boosters before the echos, although maybe the XTPs? but i don't know if that was before or after. Deng is good for trials though, give a shit load of good parts for good prices, and often mixes a few good ideas together, to get a really got product, only real problem is that his anodized stuff is getting painfully boring.

Puts a bit everything that's all ready there into one bike, calls it 'new'. People see what every one else is doing, changes things. the out come may be very different. but look the same