Illegal Drugs;

[boon racoon]

the only illegal drug worth using is rohypnol

and remember kids.

people say alcohol's a drug - it's not a drug..it's a drink.

[tomturd]

people say alcohol's a drug - it's not a drug..it's a drink.

Lol. Brass eye... quality.

[MasterOfGussets]

I feel sorry for you mate. Having that much anger and lack of understanding must suck balls.

People who end up in these situations don't do so out of choice. Do you imagine anyone saying as a child, "When I grow older I want to sell degenerative drugs or risk my health and safety selling my body on the streets"? People are unfortunately born into and surrounded by circumstances that lead to these types of behaviour and which we are all guilty of contributing to. Lack of understanding, sympathy and compassion being several strong contributions. Have you ever considered that your opinion fuels these problems?

And you really want to punish these people by shooting them? You don't think that they're present suffering is enough? Personally I'd prefer to help them. The idea of happy person sits in my head a lot better than the idea of a dead person.

No need to feel sorry. I am angry but I do also understand these peoples' situations. Just because my opinion varies from yours does not make it any less valid. Yes, I'm very, very uncaring. And have you ever thought that most of the other peoples' pro-dealer opinions aid in the opposite direction? I guess it proves the Yin/Yang theory - opposite forces balance out the universe.

Oh, and i'm yet to meet a druggy or prostitute that isn't happy with what they're doing.

you are so right wing it hurts

and paedophillia isn't a crime

I wouldn't really compare myself to Pol Pot. I wouldn't order genocide on people that wear glasses because they may be more intelligent than me.

Out of interest what are those experiences? I assume you've had a fair few experiences, enough to justify your opinion anyway.

I've had enough experiences of pushy drug dealers on streets getting really touchy because they can't understand why someone of my age won't buy their drugs. Most act pretty offended, as if I'm bullshitting them because I don't want to buy their shit. The fact that my area is now being overrun with immigrants and Londoners coming to sell drugs really pisses me off. That's just how I feel - growing up it was bearable around here. Now-a-days I can't walk the streets without getting drugged up chavs either asking for money, trying to mug me or trying to sell me crap they've just nicked from the local shops.

All the dealers I have met have had good secure jobs, and simply supply a service they can to people they want. There is no pushy sales, infact no sales as they are asked when they can supply.

Seems to me you have watched trainspotting or some other film of the nature and taken that to be gospal.

How could you constitute killing someone for possesion of Class A, with no intent to sell of supply, but for personal consumption. For all you know your parents could have enjoyed that stuff in their prime, but you would rather have them shot.

And the fact that some Class A drugs are used in medicine, but no, you would rather all those people suffer, and die.

My lord being so Close Minded must hurt.

By the By, how many times do you see a homless dude on the street shotting up asking for change as he does it?

Yes if he has become homless due to his own addictions its his fault, but he should be allowed help.

I so hope you end up homeless just so you can see how hard life like that is.

But my conception of you from your post is that you come from a rich family, and your mummies little Marmite soldier who gets all the money and possesions hes ever wanted.

Get some experience before you spout a worthless opinon

I'm under no spell - I've not lived a "hard life." But it's not been an easy one, either. I can only think you must be from a rich family if you know "decent" drug dealers.

Never seen Trainspotting - I personally think it looked like a shite movie.

I'm close-minded? Just because I disagree and think that drug dealers are twats? You're full of shit. My whole post was based around a cynical Communist rant. I'll have to start marking my posts with something that indicates sarcasm (Or cynical Marxism).

I've had plenty of experience being around drugs. I've seen it ruins the lives of friends, family members and foes. My uncle had cannabis-induced schizophrenia, a good friend threw away a career in the forces for drugs (luckily he came to his senses and gave them up and joined later on). Most of my old school friends are druggies and as I remember, by the age of 13 there were several kids in my class dealing drugs at school. My sister is now expecting a sprog from some twat that deals and takes just about any illegal substance you could name... stuck around 'til it was too late for an abortion. Not really a "decent guy."

Out of all of the dealers I've known and know of, the best job I can think of any of them having is a Bar Tender. Now, I don't know about anyone else but I don't hold 'Bar Tender' as a "decent job."

Admittedly, I know a hell of a lot less about the subject than others on here. I don't live in a majorly rough area. But it's not even a middle class area - more like the bottom end of private housing estates. But I've had enough experience of druggies and dealers to have an opinion. Just because mine vastly differs from the rest of your opinions doesn't make it invalid.

To clear things up, I don't actually believe that drug takers/dealers should be shot. Nor should speed offenders' cars be burnt infront of them (Wouldn't be allowed anyway - eco-warriors would be out in force). I simply think they're a thorn in the side of society and need to be sorted. I would definately vote for harsher sentences.

PS. I really like the whole, "How could you constitute killing someone for possesion" thing followed up with, "I so hope you end up homeless just so you can see how hard life like that is." Pretty much renders your whole post worthless.

[1a2bcio8]

If you truely understood you wouldn't be angry at these people, you'd probably feel sorry for them or at the very least not feel angry and view things in a logical manner.

Anger is an emotion that's narrows the mind and tends not to consider the variables of cause and effect. I suspect you view your negative drug dealer experiences as closed experiences. That is, you ignore the cause and effect that led the drug dealer to be in front of you trying to sell you drugs.

I used to know a kid who at 12 years of age was smoking bongs every day, doing ecstacy and speed on a fairly regular basis. He ended up in this situation because his parents did a lot of drugs. Can you blame him for that? This is an obvious cause and effect although it can be potentially displaced by other causes such as you and your behaviour. Although anger is not going to be one of those causes because anger tends to cause anger and then have the opposite effect of what you intend. This is what I meant about your behaviour contributing to these problems rather than helping. So instead if you are understanding and caring towards someones situation you might actually be able to communicate with them and effect change. Decent communication never happens when you are angry. Just holding an opinion of understanding and compassion relates to positive effect because of the influence we all have on each other.

Remember you are the way you are, predominantly, because of the genes and the environment of which you had little choice to be a part of. Because the vast majority of humans rarely try to understand their psyhological processes, because of the general social system, they tend to have little choice in their lifestyle beside from the enivornment that is most constant in their life. Do you parents hold the same view as you just out of interest?

This is why I can't get angry at you even though I strongly dislike your point of view. I understand it's the way you are. I think it's your loss though to feel like that though. I've been like that although not nearly to your degree and it's a much better/more pleasant existance to be understanding and caring towards the world.

"PS. I really like the whole, "How could you constitute killing someone for possesion" thing followed up with, "I so hope you end up homeless just so you can see how hard life like that is." Pretty much renders your whole post worthless."

I don't see any contradiction here. I think such an experience would be good for you from the understanding you might develop by being in the shoes of the people you appear to hate so much.

I also don't see anything wrong in being a "bar tender"? Life isn't about money and status.

Edited May 23, 2006 by rowly

[Has anyone seen my shoe?]

I, for one, agree with MasterofGussets. Just because the way he puts things across are a bit extreme doesnt make the points void. I've heard equally 'right wing' arguements about chavs from many of you on here. And why the f**k should dealers etc get another chance? As far as im concerned they should be punished to the full extent of the law (and even thats not good enough). Its just like murderers 'Oh its alright lets give him another chance'. Fair enough theres some alright dealers but im sure theres some alright murderers out there aswell. Some people on here need to stop following what the influential members of the forum are doing, thats what MasterofGussets has done and I respect him for that. It seems that as soon as a certain member makes a point, everyone agrees. Fair enough some of you genuinly dislike what MOG has said but I doubt thats true for the majority.

Social acceptance is a funny old thing......

[1a2bcio8]

Are humans infallible? Are they always completely aware of choices that they are making?

Why do you think somebody murders or deals?

What benefit arises from not giving somebody another chance?

What good does it do to punish people?

What good does anger and hatred do?

[poopipe]

pol pot

- if I had a love list charel would be on it.

I think MOG could have been a bit clearer on which bits he was being less than serious about - there'd have been less of a fight . I still thinks he's talking bollocks though

You aren't forced to buy the drugs - neither are you forced to become an addict. It takes quite a long time to get hooked on crack (personal experience - I'm not guessing).

It's the users fault if they get into trouble with drugs - not the dealer. It's the users that cause the problem - not the dealers.

You could say there'd be no drug problem if there were no dealers but that's a bullshit argument cos the same wasters who rob houses to fund a drug habit would just be doing it to fund a drink habit instead.

rowly - you're a big hippy

I admire people with your level of tolerance - I really do - but I can't understand how you make it through life without getting f**ked in the arse at every turn. Maybe it's karma

Edited May 23, 2006 by poopipe

[Has anyone seen my shoe?]

pol pot

- if I had a love list charel would be on it.

Heh

Well in answer to 'What benefit arises from not giving somebody another chance? What good does it do to punish people? What good does anger and hatred do?'

Precaution.

[anzo]

Eezer Goode, Eezer Goode *ohh ohh* He's Ebeneezer Goode.

Anyways, I hate drugs for an indirect reason to be honest. I blame drugs for f**king my mates life up, but in all seriousness, I'm aware it is his own fault. It started off in school when he did weed all the time, it bothered me simply because he got involved with some right f**king idiots and it got so bad that all the teachers were aware of it...and yet did nothing to help, which I find digusting.

I tried to help, but what can you do? He wants to do it, so I let him be. Anyway, it got worse and worse and we just drifted apart and I pretty much gave up on him like he gave up on everything else. He got a girlfriend for about a week, they broke up after he turned violent on her for no reason what so ever, he failed every single one of his GCSE's and is now on the dole with no qualifications and no future, he still smokes like a chimney and dabbles in other drugs too. He can't remember his name most of the time and its a struggle for him to put a sentence together, even when hes not caned out his face.

I admit he ruined his own life, he took the drugs he did it time and time again and he also had family problems which obviously didnt help the situation. Now, after this its left me with a bit of a complex, I hate it when my mates do drugs now because I'm scared they'll turn out the same way.

So, people say weed is harmless...these are the same people who smoke it and don't see the effect it has on themselves. The same people that say 'drugs are safe in moderation'...what is moderation? When does social use differ from a habit? Everyones different, everyone has a different toleration to drugs. Drugs don't have instructions or guidelines.

By the way, yes I have done drugs and yes I'm the biggest hypocrite in the world...But who isnt?

Edited May 23, 2006 by anzo

[1a2bcio8]

It's everyones fault and everyones problem. The world is inseprably linked. My behaviour effects yours, your behaviour effects mine. This process goes back and forth (feedback). We can't consider individuals as closed systems saying that they make choices completely by themselves. "It is your fault" is an invalid statement. In judging an individuals action you have to consider everything which has ever interacted with them. This is my point about acting with understanding and compassion. The behaviour you send out is, to a degree, passed along. Just like if I hit a ball with a bat. The energy is converted from one thing (the bat/a person) to another (the ball/a person).

Mog's statement is invalid if the intention of his words relates to the want of removing the "problem" of drug dealers and prostitution which I can assume relates to his want of a happy existance. He percieves the "problem" as threatening, doesn't feel happy about it thus becomes angry and wishes upon these people negative things.

But punishment does nowt as we can establish from our history. Punishment has never detered people from breaking the law, in fact it tends to encourage the problem. It's the wrong end of the stick. You need to take preventative measures like working towards an environment where people are concerned for each other people. So that positive behavioural traits are more likely to develop. Especially as we seem to be one of the most potent influences over one another. If everyone is angry and hateful towards each other imagine what that would be like? I don't think Mog would appreciate that environment yet that's what he's promoting and this is why I find his statements to be invalid. I'm assuming he wants an environment he can be happy in.

You create various types of divisions which leads to hate and anger which enourages more defined divisions which creates more hate and anger etc. etc. etc.

[poopipe]

I agree with Rowly to an extent - everything we do is influenced by the actions of others and our environment - For example. In cambridge, its socially acceptable for a man to have a basket on the front of your bike - in Ipswich you'd be dragged down an alley and kicked to death if anyone saw you.

but...

I firmly believe that there is a point where you have to take responsibility for your own actions.

The "it's society's fault" argument has meant a lot of people get away with a lot of things they shouldn't have got away with.

Child abuse is a prime example - I think it's generally accepted that abused kids are more likely to abuse other kids when they get older - does that make it ok? It's not going to make the next generation of abused children feel any better is it ?

Blaming other people for your wrongdoings/mistakes is a cop-out - you made the decision, nobody else jumped into your head and decided for you.

Obviously, if you're not aware of the consequences of your actions then it's a slightly different matter (the difference between manslaughter and murder for example). But this shouldn't be confused with deciding not to educate yourself in matters that it's entirely possible to learn about - that's your own fault too.

[MasterOfGussets]

If you truely understood you wouldn't be angry at these people, you'd probably feel sorry for them or at the very least not feel angry and view things in a logical manner.

Anger is an emotion that's narrows the mind and tends not to consider the variables of cause and effect. I suspect you view your negative drug dealer experiences as closed experiences. That is, you ignore the cause and effect that led the drug dealer to be in front of you trying to sell you drugs.

I used to know a kid who at 12 years of age was smoking bongs every day, doing ecstacy and speed on a fairly regular basis. He ended up in this situation because his parents did a lot of drugs. Can you blame him for that? This is an obvious cause and effect although it can be potentially displaced by other causes such as you and your behaviour. Although anger is not going to be one of those causes because anger tends to cause anger and then have the opposite effect of what you intend. This is what I meant about your behaviour contributing to these problems rather than helping. So instead if you are understanding and caring towards someones situation you might actually be able to communicate with them and effect change. Decent communication never happens when you are angry. Just holding an opinion of understanding and compassion relates to positive effect because of the influence we all have on each other.

Remember you are the way you are, predominantly, because of the genes and the environment of which you had little choice to be a part of. Because the vast majority of humans rarely try to understand their psyhological processes, because of the general social system, they tend to have little choice in their lifestyle beside from the enivornment that is most constant in their life. Do you parents hold the same view as you just out of interest?

This is why I can't get angry at you even though I strongly dislike your point of view. I understand it's the way you are. I think it's your loss though to feel like that though. I've been like that although not nearly to your degree and it's a much better/more pleasant existance to be understanding and caring towards the world.

"PS. I really like the whole, "How could you constitute killing someone for possesion" thing followed up with, "I so hope you end up homeless just so you can see how hard life like that is." Pretty much renders your whole post worthless."

I don't see any contradiction here. I think such an experience would be good for you from the understanding you might develop by being in the shoes of the people you appear to hate so much.

I also don't see anything wrong in being a "bar tender"? Life isn't about money and status.

Firstly, I'm not angry with the people. I just dislike them. I'm allowed to dislike people, aren't I? I would have had to have given half a shit about the people to be angry with them. And as I said, I'm a very uncaring person. So I really don't give half of a shit.

Cause and effect? I looked like an impressionable teen so the dude approached me. Simple as. And I have no problem if they approach me - I can just say, "No thanks. I don't do drugs." It's when they start getting pissy about it and pushing it on you that is my real problem.

I know about enviroments and genetics molding people. I don't really need a Psychology lesson I could get from a book at the library.

No, my parents views differ from mine. My Dad has tried drugs and doesn't really seem to dislike dealers or druggies. He has the whole, "they just need help" attitude, too. My Mum never tried drugs to my knowledge. She has the same attitude as my Dad. I have a brain and use it constantly, coincidentally and have therefore devised my own opinions through my own experiences.

Well done on how understanding you are about people. I used to be like that. Until I had let down after let down. So I guess we could say my enviroment molded me into an uncaring person? But i guess that's a side-effect from some actual life experience.

As for, "I think such an experience would be good for you from the understanding you might develop by being in the shoes of the people you appear to hate so much." Since when did I say I hate homeless people? And again with "hate" - hate is too emotional for use with people I don't know. If anything, it would be "dislike." But I don't have a problem with homeless people... unless they pull the stunt of begging next to the cash machine.

No, life isn't about money and social status. But what kind of life are you leading when your only career prospect is a possible promotion to "Bar Manager"? Besides, that's my personal opinion. You have one and so do I. I didn't rip your opinion to shreds because it was different. I find it a lot more close-minded to try and destroy other peoples' views than really listen to them. Infact, that borderlines on predjudice.

If I'm correct, this thread was started to get a wide variety of peoples' opinions? But a small group of Coffee shop intellectuals have turned it into an ego stroking thread.

PS. I don't "[wish] upon these people negative things." As I cleared up, my initial "shoot them all" post was pure sarcasm. And I'm not saying it's their fault. I'm saying it's not my problem. Chances are nobody forced them to stick a needle in their arm. I've been down and out before and yet I've never touched drugs. There's no excuse for it. Short of being forced.

PPS. "If a tree falls in the forest and there is nobody around does it make a sound?" If you live in the North and a person OD's and dies in the South and you never find out about it, would you care? No. It's impossible to do so. Any notion that you can is illogical.

I can only try to care about cases I know of. But, to reiterate again, I'm an uncaring person. It comes back again to Yin/Yang - there are caring people and uncaring people. I'm helping keep the balance! (And you seem to be into yin/yang, theory of general relativity and all that stuff). The sooner you get used to people being different to you (or not following you like sheep), the sooner we can end this stupid argument.