Cheap Copies

[Shaun H]

thats why it has an f (was supposed to be a K)

Hahahahahaha, I couldn't stop laughing when he told me that. Having seen the frame itself I have to say it's rather sexual but all you people saying you've ridden it, I'm sure you haven't. It's not been built up cos the factory pretty much made a massive hash of that prototype. You've ridden the more basic looking proto Even being a stock rider and hater of all things 20" it feels so damn comfortable for some reason, nicer than any other mod I've had a go on. Once the final model comes through it'll be an absolute beast.

Keep your eyes open for a stock bike

[Trials Dave]

thank you for your opinions everyone. some good input about how you all feel.

by the sounds of things you all like the 'copies' (as i call them) just because they are cheaper etc.

good stuff

Dave

[F-Stop Junkie]

I don't know where people get this idea of a geometry being copyrighted. If that was the case, every new frame would need people to examine every other frame on the market to ensure they didn't encroach on someone else.

If I took any bike on the market and copied the head tube length and angle, BB position and axel positions, then joined them up however I wished, I doubt anyone would notice, let alone complain. If I rebadged an existing frame as my own, then people may whinge, but I suspect that the factory would have permission to reproduce the frame within it's own portfolio, so if I brought out the Ratcliff Python, then I wouldn't expect solicitors on the phone complaining.

Now some people say that "well X is just Y but tweaked a bit." That's the case with most parts ordered out of a catalogue! I've sat down with people who have looked through a couple of catalogues and come up with this frame, those dropouts, that machined BB yoke, with geometry as we wish. Companies don't look at a new frame and think "That's great, we can't improve on that", most thing "That's great, but it would be better if we put an internal headset on it, and an inch on the top tube." That's where the geometry tweaks come from, a desire to make their product better than everyone elses, not to avoid litigation.

Is it ethical to rip off someone elses design? That's a matter of concience and pride. Is it inevitable? Certainly. If something comes out which is revolutionary, it'll become the norm within three years as design features are included on other bikes. If Acme Bikes have a frame and see that everyone wants a 30mm BB rise, then the following year, they'll include a BB rise. Not copying another design, just fulfilling customer demand.

I personally think it's great that there are so many details that keep coming through on trials bikes from all manufacturers. From new headtube designs to Vinco style bikes. In the product life cycle though, there will always be a period where something is very new and exclusive and can be charged at a premium. It'll then become more widespread, and the market will push the prices down, and then after an amount of time the design with become a commodity and it can then be sold for very little money as all the development, marketing and tooling has been paid for

As with everything, someone will pay for the latest and greatest, ten times as many people will buy the same thing three years later for half the price.

[Danny Kearns]

The zona zip is the nicest 20" riding frame out there in my opinion and the nicest looking. Just because its a copy does not mean its not strong and does not ride nice.

Well for example look at the GU, zoo python, echo team, so far all them frames are silver, i mean for god sake when will there be a change in the colour.

Thats why i thought the zona zip was an excellent idea because it is not silver and plain like all the other frames, it is grey and rides alot nicer than the Gu, zoo python and the echo team put together.

Dan !

[Tom Booth]

by the sounds of things you all like the 'copies' (as i call them) just because they are cheaper etc.

That was preety obvious to be fair isnt it?

Myself being guilty of owning a 'Copy frame' (onza t-rex, coust copy) And who is willing to pay £500 When you can get next to the same frame for 250? Only difference is the aliuminum grade.

Take the 2004 echo team and Levelboss for another example, Both 400 quid frames, Virtually the same. And Onza released the t-pro which is a very nice frame, for £199. Now is it me or do you have to be preety daft to buy the team when you could keep an extra 200 quid in your back pocket and spend it on some other bike relater objects?

Just my P.O.V

Tom

[PaulSection7]

I've ranted on about this in the past and it's not really worth going on about at length. It's very easy to be naive about how much it costs to develop a trials frame and run a trials company and say Koxx are evil rip off merchants "raping us" with their extortionate prices. Take one look at the number of world champions on their team, the number of unique frames they sell, the innovations they've made to the sport and the sort of events they put on and in the words of the late Bill Hicks, "consider shutting you f--king mouth".

But there's one very clear demonstration of what happens when people rip off innovative designs from small companies - and that's what happened to the Coustellier brand. They came up with quite a unique design (I personally don't think it's fair to say it was a copy of an Ashton or a Pashley 26ghz). They take a big risk spending a lot of time and money developing it with two world class riders who could be earning decent money riding for someone else. Loads of people in the trials world want to buy one. Zoo or whoever it was, quickly followed by Onza and God knows who else bring out frames that look nigh on identical around the exact same time as the St Blaze was launched. And guess what? Coustellier practically go bust.

Big deal I hear you cry. They shouldn't have tried to sell their frames for however much it was (£500? £800? I can't remember). So they deserve to go bust?

Well, maybe. But where's the next innovative frame design going to come from? You can be 110% certain Coustellier will never risk so much again. So we all lose out to short term quick buck making brands who don't have the skills or rider expertise to design truly innovative products that push the sport forward. These are the brands that are only in it for the money, not people like Coustellier. They sell their frames for less so they must really care about you trials riders? WAKE UP! They're in it for the money way more than Coustellier ever were and you can be damn sure they make a ton more profit that Coustellier, Koxx and so on make.

[Team Ashton]

......

Edited February 9, 2006 by Ashton Bikes

[Trials Dave]

yeah paul and f-stop junkie (lol)

i do think that the teams like koxx have to rape us on the price as they are creating a living for their team riders. they must charge more money so that they can pay their riders.

i also agree that the coustellier brand took a risk releasing their bike which has been mirrored sooo much.

i like it how companys take an existing frame and tweak it to make it better depending on what the customers think it needs. this is how the sport progresses and bikes become easier to ride etc which is what the sport needs to bring in new riders. if the bike is cheap and really nice to ride then hopefully new riders will develop their skills more quickly and become hooked into the sport which will therefore bring more money into trials and the companies in gerneral. people will always need new levers, pedals etc which usually the copy comapanys do not offer currently, so the big companies get the business for that which again evens out the profits gained by the big and little companys.

i am really starting to change my mind about the whole copys etc, as you have shown me why it is done, how it is done and generally shown me why it is really quite a good thing.

as i have said earlier i do happen to have a zona in my garage so you may even call me a bit of a hypocrit.

while im on though...... is anyone starting to get slightly tired of the whole pitbull frame design?

im not particualarly sick of it but it is becoming dated and maybe even over-rated even though it is well proven and strong.

cheers for all of your opinions which you have obviously spent a lot of your time on.

thanks

Dave

[PaulSection7]

Hey Martyn - shame you edited your post. It'd be very interesting to hear your insider views on this, but I guess they might not be for public consumption! )

[Team Ashton]

Hi Paul,

Wow i started writing and suddenley realised (just in time) that i was about to piss some people off. Better i keep my opinions to myself. Next time i see you we can chat about it then. You riding much? Come down Portcawl and we can go for a ride.

Take it easy,

Martyn.

[PaRtZ]

I dont care about copies to be honest. Im sure the original frame owners are a bit miffed but thats the way businesses go I guess

I would really laugh hard if deng made a new frame in the shape of a T-master just to take the p!ss :lol:

[SQuiT-man]

These are the brands that are only in it for the money, not people like Coustellier. They sell their frames for less so they must really care about you trials riders? WAKE UP! They're in it for the money way more than Coustellier ever were and you can be damn sure they make a ton more profit that Coustellier, Koxx and so on make.

I see what you mean by all that, but if these other companies ended up making "so much more money" than Coustillier, why didn't they just sell their frames at a reasonable price to start with? That way, that market (the t-rex market, in this case) would have been more their own from the start.

Or perhaps, they could have done the Koxx idea of selling your frame under normal name (Koxx) when released, then later on forming a side-company (Yabbaa) to sell the frame for less once the origional demand has gone, so you get the best of both markets.

I personally think the competition betwen frame to become more and more low-priced is excellent news for our sport. Bike geo's are already great, so will continue so (unless the trend becomes in "short bikes" now, but we have already been there, so not as much R+D needs doing). It does mean trials has become more affordable, which is promising to the growth of the sport

Edited February 9, 2006 by SQuiT-man

[ogre]

Why not boycot the companies

[Janson]

i have.

[F-Stop Junkie]

What tosh. Lower prices are good, for some people. What reduced margins also do is reduce innovation as people can't afford to try out something which costs more money to build. Introduce a new design, geometry or paint scheme and if people don't like them, you're left with a warehouse full of them. Take something that people already buy and sell that, then no such worries.

Without people buying higher priced framesets, I doubt we'd have XTPs, Ashtons, Coustelliers, Vincos, fancy Echos, Onza Limeys and Pashley 26GHzs.All of these frames feature something new, or pushed a little further than before. It's only once the market accepts a design like these that we see Czars and so on.

Also from a consumer point of view, would you look at a Czar frame and think "I wish I could afford a real XTP"? I know I would...

I suppose ultimately it's like cars. Some people drive Bentleys, some VWs and others Skodas. Each saying they have the best deal, but if you're happy with a Skoda...

[F-Stop Junkie]

i do think that the teams like koxx have to rape us on the price

'have to rape' - a somewhat chilling phrase.

Dave, what you're saying is that they 'have' to overcharge the customer. In reality they're setting a price which covers all their costs (not just production!) and is fair. Nowt wrong with that.

[ogre]

I still haven't come to a conclusion about this. I think there should be the option of super frames (ashtons, cousts etc) but a lot more bargain frames for the less well off, parts other than the frames cost enough anyway (i.e. 90quid for some forks...)

[Mark W]

There is currently that situation though? e.g. in the Monty range there's the X-Lite 221 top-dollar frame which retails for around £530 or so, then the 221 Pro which is about £140 or so? That's just within one brand. Again, look at Onza - you've got the Limey, and then cheaper frames like the T-Rex below it, and the same for their mod frames. So there's still choice. However, people still buy Koxx XTP frames, and other similar "top end" frames from other manufacturers, so it's not like the price drops have totally stagnated the market. At the moment, there are new frames being developed by several companies, so I wouldn't say trials was in as critical a state as some suggest.

This is all about frames though - what about componentry that even the copied brands copy from other brands themselves (confusing )? Where do people stand on that?

[Trials Dave]

'have to rape' - a somewhat chilling phrase.

Dave, what you're saying is that they 'have' to overcharge the customer. In reality they're setting a price which covers all their costs (not just production!) and is fair. Nowt wrong with that.

haha. i'll try to use that word less often and i did mean over-charge.

yeah they need to cover costs like a world-wide team i suppose!

companies do offer 'budget bikes' but i think people would rather buy the copy to have the better geometry etc than the bottom of the range bike which from my experience fall to bits after a few month.

[Ash-Kennard]

what would you prefer? t-pro or t-vee? exactly, you would get the t-pro just because its better, but as that is a copy of a koxx why don't people just buy the koxx? because they can save money. its all down to people wanting the best value for money.

[Trials Dave]

what would you prefer? t-pro or t-vee? exactly, you would get the t-pro just because its better, but as that is a copy of a koxx why don't people just buy the koxx? because they can save money. its all down to people wanting the best value for money.

100% agree.

[the_ferret]

people are copying because it is the best design that people want!

if everyone had there own thoughts and ideas trials wouldn't be where it is today because it starts a chain...

for example

1. low top tube

2.low top tube + bb ride

3 low top tube + bb rise + shorten stays

and so on

its progress!

oggy

[F-Stop Junkie]

But don't you see that companies who do very little R&D or just copy existing designs can charge less because their overheads are reduced. What that does is remove money from companies who do try new things and advance the breed.

If Koxx didn't charge the prices they do, then the Vinco wouldn't have come into being, and BBs would all be 13" off the ground. It's only by them taking a leap that other people have followed.

Generic frames - like the Zona - are cheap, but not cutting edge. You lose the frills and fancy. You pay less, you get less.

For consumers, it's dimishing returns. Pay £200 - get a good frame. Pay £400 - get a great frame. Pay £800 - get a slightly greater frame...

It's good that trials frames are generally cheaper, no doubt. The days of proper trials frames (Pashley, Echo, Zero) being £400 and everyone who couldn't afford that rode an X-Tort are long gone. With lower prices though, come lower margins. As with everything in life, you can't get something for nothing.

[Mark W]

In fairness though, HouseofDeng are producing new frames pretty quickly, and they all retail for less than £300 now, it seems, yet they feature all the expensive manufacturing processes that drive up the prices of Koxx frames? I see where you're coming from though, but still, Deng is still making new, different frames without having sky-high prices. I'd rather just pay for a frame rather than fund riders who I don't necessarily like to be able to go on a trip abroad for a week or whatever. I know it's got to be done, but what can you call the ceiling of those particular overheads? Where does it end, basically?

That's probably come across wrong, but hopefully you'll get what I mean...

Equally, by making cheaper frames companies can increase their R&D budget simply 'cos they'll sell more. To use Onza as an example, they make pretty cheap bikes that a lot of people buy, and that allows them to do frames like Slinger's proto, the Limey, those 5 random mod protos they did before, and so on. It sorta works out the same with Deng I guess. He must've sold shitloads of Pythons, so if they're selling loads of them, then reduce the price they're possibly gonna sell more. Therefore, they make more profit from that, then have the money to do R&D/pay for a team, and so on. If you think about the number of Pitbull/Pythons sold compared to the XTP 26 and 20, even if Deng made half the profit Koxx made on the XTPs per frame, simply 'cos he's sold so much more he'll have made more money in the end?

[nafan]

I think in some respects its a good idea, letting people have a copy frame for cheaper, BUT I think it really has gone too far with the Zhi stuff - F**king ridiculous in my opinion

Nathan...