Trials Dave Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 is it just me or is anyone else getting sick to death of all the copy frames all over the place.i recently posted in a topic and said how i hate how big companies go through all the testing of new frames to get them right so that they ride nicely and are visually pleasing then some little company just copies them.some companies look like they practically just change the stickers and thats it!!!!i know a hell of a lot of people like these copies because it means they can have their 'dream bike' cheap but i dont like it.i think bigger companies should practically start sueing about it...i know i would if i put all that time, effort and money into something and someone copied me.what do you think?is it just me?cheers anywayDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash-Kennard Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 well, there is rules about 'copying' a frmae exactly and marketing it as your own. but i'm not sure how strict these rules are and how often they get enforced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downhill_rob2@hotmail.com Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I dont give 2 shits lol, as long as i dont have to pay £400 for a frame with a good name, when you getting the exact same (somewhat diffrent) frame with a diffrent name, for a little bit cheaper... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Dave Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 yeah i thought a lot of people would say that.but honestly look at the ko-bike. is that not pushing the boundaries slightly?zona zips?deng bikes?black mumbas?coust copies?i would much rather buy the real deal with warranty etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan6061 Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Zona's have warrenty Gotta admit, there are slight differences in the frames mentioned, like GEo etc. So they can;t get sued? Also, the 'small companies' with the copy frames would.could make a higher profit on their sales compared to the bigger companies, becuase their stock is being sold quicker, where as the bigger companies would have slower moving stock becuase of the prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Most of these frames come straight out a catalogue.If a certain 'brand' wants to be the only person to offer these frames they have to pay the manufacturer not to produce them for other 'brands' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Dave Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 Most of these frames come straight out a catalogue.If a certain 'brand' wants to be the only person to offer these frames they have to pay the manufacturer not to produce them for other 'brands'ahh right....i see.so basically unless the big company doesnt pay extra to the factory making the frame then the factory can show anyone them?and dan, yes the smaller companies are making more profit but they are taking money away from the big companies who put the real work in!!dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 You do have to admit that the price you pay for a frame is hugeley extorionate! I mean ok they do spend months on end designing totally awesome frames, but not everyone can afford these things, a lot of riders are teenagers and early 20s (majority, i know there are older and younger riders) and most people can't produce that kind of money easily at all (i know i sure as hell can't) but the prices are a total skank! So i think it's great that people are ripping off better designs and selling them for less! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 As far as i am aware thats the kind of thing that happened with the koxx/t-pro. Koxx's agreement with the factory ran out so onza got offered the design so they improved upon it a bit and had them produced.Some of the frames available have been developed a lot which has costs such as tooling costs.Each manufacturer doesnt have their own factory though like most people seam to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walleee Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 ahh right....i see.so basically unless the big company doesnt pay extra to the factory making the frame then the factory can show anyone them?and dan, yes the smaller companies are making more profit but they are taking money away from the big companies who put the real work in!!daveCorrect.I remember on a bass forum I used to vist they had a big thread about amps and how a company called behringer basically copied design's of other's and reproduced them cheaply in the middle east.Most frames these days are made in the middle east, so really no-one is loosing out.If a company do actually put the work in and design something differant which they dont want copied, or a component/feature they don't want copied, then they can have patents, copyright's etc applied to whatever it is.If I design a bike tomorrow, produce it and you think 'yeh ill copy that' and do, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on with regard to sueing......What usually happenes is that the same frame will be bought by many companies at the same time, and it's the one who has theirs first, or has the most money to advertise which is considered the original maker, any other companies which get theirs and bring them out after are seemingly 'copies' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshywa Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 is it just me or is anyone else getting sick to death of all the copy frames all over the place.i recently posted in a topic and said how i hate how big companies go through all the testing of new frames to get them right so that they ride nicely and are visually pleasing then some little company just copies them.some companies look like they practically just change the stickers and thats it!!!!i know a hell of a lot of people like these copies because it means they can have their 'dream bike' cheap but i dont like it.i think bigger companies should practically start sueing about it...i know i would if i put all that time, effort and money into something and someone copied me.what do you think?is it just me?cheers anywayDavethink of it like this... these "copies" are more affordable to begginers, so increaseing the number of people riding trials and in turn increaseing the money companys take to have allowing them to create new products joshywa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash-Kennard Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 i like trials the size it is though. its different and i can seem good at it compared to others. i don't want little kiddies hassleing me to teach them on their new super cheap bikes. i just want to enjoy myself and not have to worry.i may seem selfish but you can see my logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Dave Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 think of it like this... these "copies" are more affordable to begginers, so increaseing the number of people riding trials and in turn increaseing the money companys take to have allowing them to create new products joshywathat is a very good point....so basically your saying that by these copies making trials more affordable it brings in more people so the sport in general becomes more popular and all companies end up making more money.i see where you are coming from.i also agree with ogre that there are a lot of young riders who really cant afford these 'big company' frames, and i agree that bike companies really are ripping us off.i would still like to see companies generally using their own skills etc and making their own framesDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat hudson Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 everyone moans about coppies, but when someone brings out somthing trueley different (cue the onza with lowered chainstays) everyone has a go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogre Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I agree how trials is good because it is "unique" and unlike skating there's never an army of people doing it which is nice, but it's not fair to make everything super expensive we need to find a balance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Dave Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 I agree how trials is good because it is "unique" and unlike skating there's never an army of people doing it which is nice, but it's not fair to make everything super expensive we need to find a balance i agree with the last 2 posts. prices are crazy and yes i think companys are scared to try something different as they get abuse about it.oh by the way...there is a zona zip in my garage which is my brothers before any of my mates prompt me about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 trials dave, i think what your doing isnt going to improve matters.mr.onza - 'ooo, i've just read 'trials daves' thread on t-f, maybe we should stop selling the t-pro at such a decent price just for his sake'i'm not trying to have a go, but really, what is this thread good for? all the smaller companies were doing were finding gaps in the market where profit can be made, anyone in their right minds would do this surely if they had the opportunity? i say good on them for makin a bit of money out of the situation...i think koxx and others deserve it to be honest, they absolutely RAPE us of our money on all of their products imo.koxx trials shoes 65+ quid........koxx xtp frames 550+ quid.......koxx levelboss frame = 400 quid (they must have been raking it in before onza brought out a better frame for 200 quid.)meh, thats my system flyshed Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshywa Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 everyone moans about coppies, but when someone brings out somthing trueley different (cue the onza with lowered chainstays) everyone has a go.dont forget how much people had a go at the toxin...... every one jumped on the its short so i dont like it band wagon there too !to be honest 90% of trials frames these days are similar/same design or have features from another frame, before some one butts in i know there are exceptions to that rule e.g. koxx vinco, but this is beacause thats what sells frames to the masses and again makes more money which is why these companies are making frames is it not ?joshywa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat hudson Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 but that bash was blatentley a shite design, the onza is a brilliant idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshywa Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 but that bash was blatentley a shite design, the onza is a brilliant idea.how was it blatentley shite ??? its a development in trials and that cant be a bad thing can it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Dave Posted February 7, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 trials dave, i think what your doing isnt going to improve matters.mr.onza - 'ooo, i've just read 'trials daves' thread on t-f, maybe we should stop selling the t-pro at such a decent price just for his sake'i'm not trying to have a go, but really, what is this thread good for? all the smaller companies were doing were finding gaps in the market where profit can be made, anyone in their right minds would do this surely if they had the opportunity? i say good on them for makin a bit of money out of the situation...i think koxx and others deserve it to be honest, they absolutely RAPE us of our money on all of their products imo.koxx trials shoes 65+ quid........koxx xtp frames 550+ quid.......koxx levelboss frame = 400 quid (they must have been raking it in before onza brought out a better frame for 200 quid.)meh, thats my system flyshed Willjust seeing how people feel about them really.im not trying to change anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash-Kennard Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 depends if it was a shit developement of not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshywa Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 depends if it was a shit developement of notwhat proof do we have that the bash was a bad idea ??? everyone presumed it was from pictures and oppinions! im not saying it was a good idea either what i am saying is its a development and in my book thats a good thing weather it works or notif companys didnt keep developing on idea's we would have half the frames we do today im sure !joshywa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mat hudson Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 it was heavier, there was a huge shearing force on the bolts and people already break bolts onto frames enough. the bash would have not have been able to take lateral loads aswell as the usual design as it would be ripped off. also there was less clearance with that bash. aswell as all that, going to bash usually is pretty horrific on walls, even with the bash plate being pretty big, the bt one had 2 tiny surfce areas that would rape walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Cox Posted February 7, 2006 Report Share Posted February 7, 2006 the ko bike isnt actaully a copy, its a prototype in its own right, its made in the same factory as the echo/zoo deng empire frames, thats why it has an f (was supposed to be a K) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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