biketrialler Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Um, I didn't say owt about evolution. And I didn't say that I thought we humans are a perfect race either! Quite the contrary! We are complete screw-ups! We were, when first created, perfect (that's Adam and Eve). But then sin came into the world, and that's the fall of humans, and sin has been in the world ever since. And that is why Jesus came to die on the cross, so that we could be forgiven You missed the point. So in your belief, adam and eve, humans, were created by god, and we all descend from them? How come its scientifically proven that we have evolved from apes. Have you got an explanation for that? Please reply to this!Also... you said yourself...And it could just be made up nonsense, but I have found almost every single time I've faced a challenge or something and I've gone to the Bible for help, it (or should I say, GOD) has been able to help me. Also, check this out. This shows that the New Testament is more reliable than the philosophical works of Herodotus or Thucydides, which are generally taken to be complete truth! Is it not possible that they are 'just plain made up nonsense'? You go to the bible for help - it helps you. The stories in it show you the path to go on, and help you in decisions or in weak times. Thats fair enough. I think thats a good thing, and the bible for the most part is a great source to help yourself with. However. The bible was written by man. It can be a collection of stories gathered over the years written into an epic. This epic, while still having great values and guides today, is however a selection of good stories. You have absolutely no proof of god existing, you said "I've gone to the Bible for help, it (or should I say, GOD)" - can that just mean that your God is the bible. Thats fair enough living your life by the book - but that can be all it is in my eyes at least, a great basis to live life by - not a belief in a higher power. Tell me that you have had a direct message from God, not a story from a bible, or a decision the bible helped you take going well - but some proof he is out there. To say you dont need proof is to believe in Homer Simpson because one of the cartoons helped you in some way. Please reply to these as im interested in how you can explain them. Thanks. Ben. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb88 Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Well nobody knows what happens, and theres no possible way we could find out, you just gotta have faith to help you cope.Being religious when i was younger definately helped me cope and thats one reason why i think religion is a good thing. You may lose the love and support of that person but just think about how lucky you are compared with people in third world countries, or in war - e.g. in iraq.How come its scientifically proven that we have evolved from apes. Its not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 (Only through religion can good people kill in the belief that they are doing good)One of the things I was going to point out (and be ignored again? ) which I might as well put something about. That is a load of crap. There are plenty of situations in which "good" people can kill in the belief they are doing good. Say someone was holding a group of people hostage, and tried to kill the hostages? 1 life to save many more? And so on. Even in medical instances, e.g. putting someone out of their misery. However, this is all about YOUR definition of good. The people who flew into the twin towers thought they were good people for doing the work of their deity, so by THEIR standards THEY were good, and therefore thought they were doing good. Basing the legitimacy of your actions on a false set of "goodness" is such a ridiculously stupid thing to do anyway... However, probably 99.9% of the Bible has been translated very well. "Probably" being the operative word. That isn't the case. You may want to do some reading up on the history of the bible, specifically when it was translated from Latin.You know, there was a guy called Paul who wrote about a 3rd of the New Testament. He wrote a load of letters to churches and stuff, and in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 verse 14, which is one of the letters he sent to the church in Corinth, he says "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." which, no offence, sounds exactly like you! (Not just you, but also other people are the same.) Don't you think this shows that the Bible isn't just made up nonsense? And this is only one tiny part of millions of bits in the Bible which relate, almost uncannily, to people today. Like I said before, I have found the Bible so helpful almost every single time I've faced a challenge. So you're arguement here is that because someone in the book that people are disputing is accurate said "If you say it's wrong you yourself are wrong", that means the book must be true? I hope you understand how stupid that sounds to everyone else. Because someone chooses not to follow your belief, they are suddenly immoral beings? That is a complete load of crap. Again, I can't actually believe you are trying to argue that point - which, in your own words, you were? You even said that about Rich_87. Isn't there even something in the bible about not judging people yourself, for God will do that? Either way, I've made it through life so far without using the bible everytime I've faced a challenge, and I'm here? Um, I didn't say owt about evolution. And I didn't say that I thought we humans are a perfect race either! Quite the contrary! We are complete screw-ups! We were, when first created, perfect (that's Adam and Eve). But then sin came into the world, and that's the fall of humans, and sin has been in the world ever since. And that is why Jesus came to die on the cross, so that we could be forgiven. Gonna have to be brief 'cos I've got work in half an hour, so here goes:So because God introduced sin, we have to suffer for it? Nice. Nice... If God created everything, therefore God DID create sin, and now we're being punished for it, in spite of the fact that he guilt-tripped us by "sending his only son" to us to be killed? Er...OK, I should've said I believe this is the truth, as I said earlier. And I'm not going to say that the Bible has proven facts (apart from there was a guy called Jesus who did die and do all that he did as it says in the Bible and did some wierd things (which the Bible calls miracles)), but can I ask, do you think that the Big Bang is truth? Or that we evolved from tiny one celled organisms? Because no one was alive when the Big Bang was supposed to happen, and no one was around to see that one-celled organisms became humans over a few billion years. (I'm talking about macro-evolution here - I know micro-evoltion/adaption is true, because that has been proven) Now this could well be true, I'm not saying the Big Bang didn't happen, and I'm not saying we didn't come from one-celled organisms. But I am saying they are not FULLY proven things, they are just theories. GOD may well have used evolution to creat us. However, there may just be a load of similarities between us and apes which point to evolution, but actually they may just be coincedences. Also, if the Big Bang is true, then there MUST have been an intelligent design behind it, as IT HAS BEEN PROVED that explosions do not give an organised product (e.g. Earth and living things). That intelligent design may not be the GOD that I and many other people know, but it does show that there is something. Onnnnnnnne sec here. To quote you: "Because no one was alive when the Big Bang was supposed to happen, and no one was around to see that one-celled organisms became humans over a few billion years. (I'm talking about macro-evolution here - I know micro-evoltion/adaption is true, because that has been proven) Now this could well be true, I'm not saying the Big Bang didn't happen, and I'm not saying we didn't come from one-celled organisms. But I am saying they are not FULLY proven things, they are just theories." It's also a FACT that people have been prayed for when they are ill and they have been cured much faster than doctors prescribe, or even they are healed from things which have no cure. For example, when I was at a Christian Conference back in the Summer called Soul Survivor, a guy was at the skatepark they had and he fell badly and actually couldnt move for about 2 hours - whenever, he did move he screamed out in pain. Anyway, he went to Hospital, and everybody at the conference prayed for him and he came back that night, and he should've at least stayed over for a night the doctors were saying. Now, are you telling me that all that is just coincedence?Yes? There was a famous and well documented story of a martial arts master who seriously injured himself, and with minor medical aid but a lot of self-belief and determination he was back to full health far, far faster than he should've been. Even placebo effect tests and experiments have shown that with the correct attitude and mindset, the human body can heal itself remarkably quickly. Also, you're basing part of your arguement on ONE thing? I've had instances where I've been in a lot of pain, and then later on in the day I've been fine. It's no big deal, it's just that we humans heal? Or no doubt that's God doing it for us Either way, like I said, even placebo tests have shown that with the correct mindset we can heal faster than medical experts suggest (bearing in mind they're still learning about medical conditions too, so they won't always be fully accurate, hence getting second opinions and so on?).Imagine Heaven is like the most incredible trials spot EVER. There is nothing else like it anywhere in the world. It has everything, from technical to lazy-boy stuff, from Natural to Street, anything you want to do, it's got it. And the best thing is, it's right on your doorstep, it's riding distance away. The only thing is, it's quite well hidden, and only a handful of people know where it is. One day, one of your riding buddies comes up to you and tells you about this place. You've never heard of it before and you never knew it existed. Now, you can either believe your mate or not. thing is, it doesn't matter whether you believe or not, it still exists. One day, you go to the place with your mate. Lets say you don't believe him at all, and you're so confident that it doesn't exist that you then don't go with your bike. But when you get there, you find it does exist and you look like a complete chump! Now lets rewind, and say you do believe, and at the first chance you get you grab your bike and go with your mate to the place and there it is! Just as he said! And you spend all day there, but you can't get enough of it. The end of the day comes too quickly and you have to leave, but you don't want to. This place is amazing, and you're so glad that you believed your mate rather than being stubborn and saying it can't be true because nothing else like that exists. I hope you were being sarcastic or something with this part of your post? Either that or you just didn't think about it? How are these even half-way compatible? You're comparing walking down a road with a spirit rising from a decomposing body and somehow finding it's way to a mystical place called "heaven", or mostly likely "hell" seeing as everyone sins. How can you even begin to suggest that's a suitable metaphor for it?Meh, like I said, work soon, and I can't sit here all night pointing out crap...Being religious when i was younger definately helped me cope and thats one reason why i think religion is a good thing. You may lose the love and support of that person but just think about how lucky you are compared with people in third world countries, or in war - e.g. in iraq. What the hell has that got to do with anything? That's like someone asking "What colour is a banana?" "Yellow. The tree is nice today." It's not even partially connected! Someone dying is still someone dying, and if they're dead, they're dead. That doesn't relate to other people's lifestyles at all And before anyone tries saying I'm just too stubborn to believe or anything, it's simply that I have never, ever, ever been given an arguement to suggest that Christianity is 'correct' (bad term, but you get what I mean ) or 'right' enough to actually justify me changing my life. At all. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb88 Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 What the hell has that got to do with anything? That's like someone asking "What colour is a banana?" "Yellow. The tree is nice today." It's not even partially connected! Someone dying is still someone dying, and if they're dead, they're dead. That doesn't relate to other people's lifestyles at all What? I'm just saying dont feel sorry for yourself if you lose a loved one, theres millions of people worse off. Nothing to do with religion just saying....lol. Nice banana metaphor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I'd still say that, say, your mum died - you still have a 'right' to grieve? Just because there are 'less fortunate' people doesn't deny that losing a huge part of your life grants you time to grieve their passing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb88 Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 I'd still say that, say, your mum died - you still have a 'right' to grieve? Just because there are 'less fortunate' people doesn't deny that losing a huge part of your life grants you time to grieve their passing?Im not saying that, i just find it easier to get over something bad happening by thinking that im very well off compared to many people, seems to help for me anyway... you just sorta say to yourself 'why are you being such a baby...get over it, theres plenty people worse off than you'. maybe that idea doesnt work with you, meh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Nah, that idea holds true for me in 99% of all cases, it's just that the death of a friend, close friend or loved one falls into the 1% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 shall we kill noz's mum and see how he feels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb88 Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 shall we kill noz's mum and see how he feels?What a nice thing to say.If you'd have read my post i said that it helped me cope with my dads death a while ago, and religion also helped.But thanks anywaytwat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Remember onzaboymark,it's not me who's replying to this post at the moment,i'm just pasting a reply from (CB) on a christian biker forum but i would like to add one very important thing that realy sorts out why things seem so impossible to you but to us they are very possible,and it's simply because we actually have more than a skin and bone belief in both what we read in the bible and what we feel from God.I'm not expecting you to understand this,but i wasn't allways saved and i too shared the same point of view as you do now,reading the bible is more than just trying to read a book to the committed christian,when you believe in christ and are FULLY committed to being a christian,the bible becomes a part of you and in some respects it comes alive in you,but that can only be experienced by somone who is fully committed! and when you are fully committed to Christ you gain an understanding of christianity that you simply can't get from being a nonbeliever!Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 (edited) well from what you were saying i read it as " i wouldnt mind if anything bad happened, i'd just think of those worse off than me"IMO thats a right loads of twonkEDIT: noz didnt see your post of 6:40 , my bad Edited February 10, 2006 by Charel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 shall we kill noz's mum and see how he feels?Starting to expect this kind of comment from you dude!Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biketrialler Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Desire68 instead of focussing on points about people joking about each others mothers would you please care to add your reply to my well thought out and completely serious posting in the previous thread, I would like to see a response... thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 10, 2006 Report Share Posted February 10, 2006 Just wanted to add - if praying actually made God heal people, God would be interfering in the world, which would be denying us freewill, which is one of the main principles people seem to hold dear (false though it may be?). Equally, doesn't 'xactly help everyone who's ill and who prays. That's all a technicality though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tank_rider Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 With the decent budget they have, i wouldn't mind a trials park that was used for this type of thing, although i'm not averse to having in depth conversations with my christian housemate, and even used to attend a christian union for the decent discussion etc. I'm not actually christian, i just like to hear different peoples views on things and find out what drives them to be how they are.And to say christians don't binge drink is silly, two of my mates who are very christian go out and get hammered all the time, and yes shock horror in night clubs too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) The Christian God is omniscient, so in knowing everything, he must know the future. If he knows the future then it's already set and we're all just going through the motions. Unless perhaps God is actually more limited than the bible says. I can see how preying, if you believe in god, could help somebody to recover faster from an illness. Unfortunately, the idea of God actually intervening to help somebody recover from an illness cannot be proven. I would personally prefer to follow the idea that preying, for the religious individual, would relate to a positive frame of mind which might aid recovery. This is something which can be proven moreso than God's intervention.If I'm completely honest, although in one sense I find it interesting and I can accept it, I also find it a shame that people have faith in something which is metaphysical. They are living their lives based on unprovable concepts. I see it is a limiting factor to the potential of human experience and thus enjoyment of life. It's the idea that Christians, especially evangelicals, have ideas about how the world should be, which I don't think it is and I don't think it ever will be. Religion is a projection onto the world, it's not an interpretation of the actual world itself. Ideas about existence cannot compete with the reality of existance. So these ideas are always unachievable. This can cause problems of perception of the self and of others. Certain types of behaviour are deemed sinful. People can feel guilty and bad about themselves or judge other people with a negativity, especially evangelicals. War is a common result of such opinion, at least in the past. There's also the persecution of "witches" who were people usually just practising another religion if even that. Perhaps they were just behaving a bit "odd". Of course it's not quite like this anymore, but religious ideology still manifests in other forms.Unfortunately I have to leave this unfinished. I'm off snowboarding for a week! Sweet.Enjoy your debate. Edited February 11, 2006 by rowly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) You missed the point. So in your belief, adam and eve, humans, were created by god, and we all descend from them? How come its scientifically proven that we have evolved from apes. Have you got an explanation for that? Please reply to this!Also... you said yourself...You go to the bible for help - it helps you. The stories in it show you the path to go on, and help you in decisions or in weak times. Thats fair enough. I think thats a good thing, and the bible for the most part is a great source to help yourself with. However. The bible was written by man. It can be a collection of stories gathered over the years written into an epic. This epic, while still having great values and guides today, is however a selection of good stories. You have absolutely no proof of god existing, you said "I've gone to the Bible for help, it (or should I say, GOD)" - can that just mean that your God is the bible. Thats fair enough living your life by the book - but that can be all it is in my eyes at least, a great basis to live life by - not a belief in a higher power. Tell me that you have had a direct message from God, not a story from a bible, or a decision the bible helped you take going well - but some proof he is out there. To say you dont need proof is to believe in Homer Simpson because one of the cartoons helped you in some way. Please reply to these as im interested in how you can explain them. Thanks. Ben.Bennifer,i wasn't ignoring you dude,as i did state before my latest post about the comment referring to Noz's mother,this reply wasn't from me i was just posting it on behalf of a friend on another site,and if you have really read my replies you would have seen that i do infact try to answer everyones comments,especially when they are directed to me.That out of the way,in your post you refer to humans as being evolved from apes and that it's scientifically proven! This is news to me as i had thought that it hadn't been proven yet,where did you get this info from as i'm sure that you are wrong!I'm going to attempt to explain to you the reason why we differ so much in our ideas of the bible and what it means to us as christians.You say that it was written by man and yes you are 100% right,but the most important part which nonbelievers can't possibly get there heads round is the fact that when the bible was written by man,man was under the influence of the Holy Spirit and this is the only way the bible could be written!An example to help you with this is in the book of Exodus when Moses was writing the Ten commandments(this was the second time they were written after Moses destroyed the first set in anger at Aaron and the Isrealites) he was in direct contact with God. God used Moses(a man) to write the commandments and this could only have been done by a man under the influence of God(the holy spirit)I as a christian believe in the omnipresence of the Holy Spirit and i feel that this is a good example of it.God on the outside giving Moses the ten commandments and at the same time,on the inside of Moses enabling him to write them.You also refer to the bible as being a collection of good stories or an epic,ok,to the nonbeliever the bible can't possibly be anything more than just a book, reading material,but like i said earlier the difference between believers and nonbelievers is the presence of the Holy Spirit,this is why when i read the bible i feel connected to it and when you or any nonbeliever reads the bible it can only be a book or a collectoin of good stories to you.You also say that i have no proof that God exists! Do you have any proof that God doesn't exist!! You see,for you who can only see the world through logic,there just simply can't be any proof that would make you see that God does exist ,i on the other hand see things differently,i see that as a christian my belief is built up on faith,the faith i have in a God whom can't be seen is fed by the Holy Spirit who guides me through life,the Holy Spirit lives in me,but where is the evidence i hear you asking,the evidence is in my total belief in God,just the fact that you question my belief tells me that you are curious about God otherwise why would you bother,and it's that same seed of curiosity that led me to seek answers and find out the truth for myself some fifteen years ago now!Finally(i hope) Fifteen years ago when i found Christ,i wasn't looking for him,i had my youth and good health.So here is my testimony for all of you guys who want to see what made me turn to Christ Well guys, this forum really is going from strength to strength,and now we have a Testimony section,God is pleased with this,I know!! Ok,I haven't always been a Christian,in fact i was quite the opposite.Yeah,i went to church when i was younger but that was just because i was made to go. When i reached my early teens,my parents asked me if i wanted to carry on going to church,to which i replied NO! so that was that,and i didn't have to go any more! Well,a few VERY Promiscuous relationships later and now in my early twenties,i decided that it would be a good idea to start smoking,and i had also developed a taste for alcohol. My smoking developed in to a taste for Marijuana and what started of as just a weekend spliff gradually turned in to a bit of a habit.I used to work for BT,and most lunch times i would be in my red and white tent or in the van getting "well cherry!" until i lost that job. Things started to go down hill, My smoking grew at an alarming rate,i couldn't hold my jobs and my girlfriend then started to cheat on me. Life just seemed so rubbish,always in det,constantly a victim of circumstance,NOTHING would go right for me! I had,and still have a very good friend and her name is Shryel,now i really wanted to get it on with her and once or twice i was sucessfull,but one day i went to see her with evil intentions on my mind and God had other plans for me! We both new another girl called Natasha(Natty) for short and she had just got saved,the problem was that she happened to be visiting the same day i had decided to go and see Shryel! Funny,i remember saying"i hope that christian girl doesn't start preaching to me,cause i won't have it" but how totally wrong i was!! This was the conversation that was about to change my life: NATTY:Hello mike! Me:Hay natty,what's up! NATTY:Oh,Nothing much,how are you?? Me:I'm good thanks! NATTY:Have you heard,I'm a christian now?? Me:Yes,i've heard............ NATTY:Do you believe in GOD?? Me:YES!!!!!!!!!!!! NATTY:Have you been baptized then?? Me:NO,BUT I'VE BEEN CHRISTENED AND CONFIRMED!!!!!!!!! NATTY:Oh,so you haven't been baptized,prayed the sinners prayer or asked God to forgive you of all your sins?? Me:No!!!! NATTY:Well,if you don't do this YOUR GOING TO HELL!!!! On that, note she turned and walked out of the room!! Now,i'm already feeling down and out,life had been kicking me in the teeth for a few years,i'd had a smoke,realized that i wasn't going to get any from Shryel and this so called friend had just told me that i'm giong to HELL!! I just couldn't let it rest(but this was ALL in God's plan!!) i went after her and challenged her about her last statement,whish she promptly repeated, IF YOUR NOT SAVED,YOUR GOING TO HELL!! I told her that she couldn't leave it like that,and that she would have to explain,so we excused ourselves and went into another room where we could talk more about what she had said. She started telling me about how good God is and about how the world has nothing to offer me of any lasting value.She would read scriptures inbetween talking to me and it was all what i really needed! The thing that turned my hart to Christ,the actual moment i was saved was when the strangest of things started to happen. While she was talking to me,i would have a question or a thought in my head and as soon as it popped up,Natty would say"I've got a word for you,and that word would be the answer to the question that i had just thought of,or a comforting reassurance of the EXACT thought i had!! This coupled with a tingeling feeling all over my entire body the whole time was what showed me just how real God is! We were talking and praying for hours,and didn't even realise the time,i still had a two hour journey home but i had to drop Natty of first.When we were leaving she said that God had just given her a scripture for me but i was to read it when i got home.The scripture was Luke18v18-29,Now the reason that this scripture is so significant is that when we were going to the car to take Natty home,i was silent due to the fact that i was asking God a few things,these things being,How can i follow you Lord when i like girls and sex so much,i love drinking,ok i can give up the smoking but what about all of my jewelry(I used to whear a LOT of rings and bracelets,chains and ear ring!!LOL). That scripture was a direct answer to the questions i was asking on the way to the car,it talks about how it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God(read it,and you'll get my drift) So,i was truly saved,i stopped all casual relationships,smoking,drinking to get drunk(still have a beer or a brandy at the weekend!!Lol) and took off all my jewelry apart from a bracelet which my mother had given me for my 21st.I told god that i'd just keep wearing this one,it was really nice and even had a safety clasp on it so it wouldn't drop off my wrist if it came unfastened.Then without warning, it just fell off in the shower,just like that!! I looked up and just said YES LORD!! and never put it on again! I've been saved for fourteen years this summer,i've had my fair share of up's and down's,my mother now rests with the Lord(God bless you mum) I met Rose when i got saved(i knew her before,but wasn't interested in virgin church girls) Sorry Lord! we married after seven years of courtship and now have two lovely children Lashaan-Rene and Joshua! In the last three years i've been the closest to God that i've ever been,I know he is real,i've seen real miracles and he has performed wonders in my life.I am truly glad that he saved a retch like me and i intend to give my life to him! If you are reading this and you haven't fallen asleep yet,i hope that you are truly blessed by this,i've never written down my trstimony before and i've even left some of it out,guess i should write a book.One thing for sure is that the Lord has called me to talk to MEN both saved and unsaved,and why not,afterall,i know about both sides of the coin Lol!! So be blessed,and i hope that this testimony helps sombody!! Mike. Bennifer just to add to your last comment,If you got something positive from The Simpsons which made you feel better about life,that feeling would only last for a given time,but what i get from the holy Spirit and my belief is constant and will last forever,don't forget,the difference between christians and nonchristians is the Holy Spirit which makes ALL the difference!I hope i've answered your reply now dude.Mike. Edited February 11, 2006 by desire68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) (Only through religion can good people kill in the belief that they are doing good)Onzaboymark,this comment was posted by Lewis,who by his comments i would say is a nonbeliever! I also totally disagree with this statment!Mike Edited February 11, 2006 by desire68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave85 Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 You might disagree, but its perfectly f**king true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 11, 2006 Report Share Posted February 11, 2006 (edited) Just wanted to add - if praying actually made God heal people, God would be interfering in the world, which would be denying us freewill, which is one of the main principles people seem to hold dear (false though it may be?). Equally, doesn't 'xactly help everyone who's ill and who prays. That's all a technicality though Ok Praying dosen't MAKE God heal,when praying for healing,you are RERQUESTING that God heals the one being prayed for,and somthing that is overlooked about healing is the persons beliefe that they have indeed been healed and i don't mean just thinking that your healed i mean truly believing in your healing and accepting it until the symptoms are gone.Ok how are nonbelievers healed then?i hear you ask. The very circumstance that brought you in front of a preacher or your TV to listen to a healing service usually means that you have tried everything else and this is a last ditch attempt to get well again and be rid of your illness,God will workin these cases to show the nonbeliever that God is real and that he can deliver you from thoes areas where all else has failed. You wouldn't have a great deal of faith in the beginning of this senario but by the end of your healing you would have received more than what all your previous attempts have resultede in.When a nonbeliever receives healing in this way,they usually become committed because of the seemingly impossible circumstance that has just been turned around by God! This is still totally up to them as God never takes away our free will.Mike You might disagree, but its perfectly f**king trueOk Dave,What religion causes a man to turn off a life support machiene,that his loved one is depending on? It's still seen as killing,still seen as being aq good person but nothing to do with religion!Mike Edited February 11, 2006 by desire68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Ok Praying dosen't MAKE God heal,when praying for healing,you are RERQUESTING that God heals the one being prayed for,and somthing that is overlooked about healing is the persons beliefe that they have indeed been healed and i don't mean just thinking that your healed i mean truly believing in your healing and accepting it until the symptoms are gone.Ok how are nonbelievers healed then?i hear you ask. The very circumstance that brought you in front of a preacher or your TV to listen to a healing service usually means that you have tried everything else and this is a last ditch attempt to get well again and be rid of your illness,God will workin these cases to show the nonbeliever that God is real and that he can deliver you from thoes areas where all else has failed. You wouldn't have a great deal of faith in the beginning of this senario but by the end of your healing you would have received more than what all your previous attempts have resultede in. Kudos for totally ignoring/not reading the part of my post where I dealt with that? And for contradicting yourself in your own answer? To be honest, if the person I'm writing my posts to doesn't actually read them, I can't really be bothered writing anything more out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Chrisitianity is faith, just like every other religion. It doesn't work on proof, or non-proof, that would defeat the object of faith. In the same way you had faith that your parents would get you the Chistmas present you really wanted, religious people have the same faith in their god/s.Take it or leave it, God isn't going to be something that can be explained or proven on an internet forum.What CAN be argued about is the motives and beliefs of the humans who partake in the religions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rugbyman Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 What CAN be argued about is the motives and beliefs of the humans who partake in the religions.I AGREE, SHAME NO ONE TOOK THE BAIT. AH WELL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire68 Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Kudos for totally ignoring/not reading the part of my post where I dealt with that? And for contradicting yourself in your own answer? To be honest, if the person I'm writing my posts to doesn't actually read them, I can't really be bothered writing anything more out...Take it easy Mark,didn't think i was ignoring you and i definitely did read ALL your post,did you actually read all of mine,have i struck a nerve ending?? Where have i contradicted my self,would help if you pointed it out then i might have a chance to better explain what i meant!Mike.Just wanted to add - if praying actually made God heal people, God would be interfering in the world, which would be denying us freewill, which is one of the main principles people seem to hold dear (false though it may be?). Equally, doesn't 'xactly help everyone who's ill and who prays. That's all a technicality though Mark,This was the post i was replying to with regards to Prayer not MAKING God heal you!Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted February 14, 2006 Report Share Posted February 14, 2006 Ok Praying dosen't MAKE God heal,when praying for healing,you are RERQUESTING that God heals the one being prayed for,and somthing that is overlooked about healing is the persons beliefe that they have indeed been healed and i don't mean just thinking that your healed i mean truly believing in your healing and accepting it until the symptoms are gone.Ok how are nonbelievers healed then?i hear you ask. The very circumstance that brought you in front of a preacher or your TV to listen to a healing service usually means that you have tried everything else and this is a last ditch attempt to get well again and be rid of your illness,God will workin these cases to show the nonbeliever that God is real and that he can deliver you from thoes areas where all else has failed. You wouldn't have a great deal of faith in the beginning of this senario but by the end of your healing you would have received more than what all your previous attempts have resultede in.When a nonbeliever receives healing in this way,they usually become committed because of the seemingly impossible circumstance that has just been turned around by God! This is still totally up to them as God never takes away our free will. By changing the circumstances, God does take away what "free will" we think we have? If he's altering it so it's not as it was, he is interfering in the world, which it says he won't do (apart from when he massacred a shitload of people for not believing in him. Jealous God? Oh noes). No, you haven't struck a nerve. None of your arguements have really "upset" me in any way, shape, or form. The only mild annoyance I found was you not replying to any of the main points of any of my posts, instead choosing other joking ones to reply to, e.g. Charel's.Don't worry about it though, probably easier to avoid answering difficult questions? Or have I "hit a nerve" there Bye EDIT: Oh yeah, the rest of the points I was making about you contradicting yourself were also in the other posts I made you didn't reply to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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