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[desire68]

I can't be arsed to read all this topic.

The christian god, if true, is a sado. He derives sexual pleasure from our pain. He loves it like a man loves a women. He's blatantly up there knocking one off over people dying in hurricanes and earthquakes. I bet he wears a gimp costume.

I don't mind a negative view point Rowly,but your reply was totally disrespectful. Maybe you should read the whole topic befor you post,it might give you an understanding on what's being discussed here!!

Mike

[desire68]

Thats worse then then 20 stoner becomes a size 8 ater 7 pints, and you wake up with a beached whale ontop

Gonna voice my opinion here{read some of it, but as usual its turned into a bit of an argument}

Im all for religion, Just aslong as its not being shoved in my face. I wouldnt mind the freedom to spend my days doing as i wish without some chior boy ramming panflets in my face and screaming how jesus pulled bread out his ass and pissed wine.

Its just not a fair game, No-one pushes jeudaism into the christian preists face, Why should us non believers have to have someone tell us to join there religion?

I dont feel any hatred towards/against religious people either way, If they want to be a jew/hindu/christian, It is there choice, Just dont drag me into it.

Why cant we have the freedom to ride our bikes, go out to the clubs/pub for a good night out without some door to door preist preeaching about religion? Just give us some privacy and freedom!!

Tom

Just can't understand why you have to be so disrespectful,dude why don't you actually read the bible and find out what actually happened with the bread and the wine,might help you to not make comments like that.

For the record nobody is shoving religion in your face or taking your privacy away,If your being asked about your view on christianity and you don't want to talk about it,just walk/ride away simple!

Mike

[Ash-Kennard]

well the youth club i go to has a reverend come round everyweek and forces us to learn about religeon and drugs and shit, we just sit there eating sweets and throwing things. so yes they do ram it down your throat

[desire68]

well the youth club i go to has a reverend come round everyweek and forces us to learn about religeon and drugs and shit, we just sit there eating sweets and throwing things. so yes they do ram it down your throat

This senario wouldn't be the same if you were out on the street or riding though would it ash.The fact that you actually attend the youth club stops it being an invasion of your privacy too as it's part of the clubs agenda and you have a choice in attending or not!

Mike

[Ash-Kennard]

well it is the same as he just turns up

[Tom Booth]

Just can't understand why you have to be so disrespectful,dude why don't you actually read the bible and find out what actually happened with the bread and the wine,might help you to not make comments like that.

For the record nobody is shoving religion in your face or taking your privacy away,If your being asked about your view on christianity and you don't want to talk about it,just walk/ride away simple!

Mike

Sorry to offend you, but its just how i feel towards religious 'salesmen'..We live preety much next door to a jahovois whitnes kingdom hall (sp?) and we get hassl alll the time from them, its just soo annoying to have to tell the SAME man 3 times a week we dont want to join there religion. And it just feels its being thhrusted at you 24/7.

[Tomm]

To be fair to Desire, you guys are being pretty disrespectful. I know Christianity isn't particularly cool, but it doesn't hurt to just leave people be, rather than mocking them for no particular reason. Desire raises a fairly good point - most people will leave you alone if you ask them. The exception would of course be Jehovah's Witnesses, who are generally a fairly difficult group. Just everyone chillax and let other people get on

[biketrialler]

If a street preacher reaches one person on a saturday afternoon then his day has been worth wile,don't get upset about the town centre thing,if you don't want to hear it then you don't have to stay and listen to them,thats freedom of choice which you wouldn't have received with hitler!!!

Mike

Christianity - Better than Hitler's Dictatorship

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

only just.

[RicH_87]

Rich_87 Don't give up to early man,my mate (CB) wants to have the chance to answer your last post,so have a read and see what you think!!

Well, i tried to think, i really did, but i was too busy being in pure shock as to how deeply you believe in this stuff.

Can you honestly say you can read that post back and think, "yeh i'm making perfect sense"? I seriously can't believe you believe it all, and even call it the TRUTH. I obviously can't piss on you god fueled bombfire but all i can say is.....wow, you really can't see any flaws or inconsistencies? any impossibilities or just plain made up nonsense?

I'm not saying don't believe in God, but am i the only one that reads/hears about parts of the bible and just laughs at how rediculous it sounds?

I woudn't be suprised if someone, somewhere alters parts of it every year to make it even more rediculous just for the laugh.

This is Grace. Grace is a totally undeserved gift, given to us by GOD. We shouldn't have it, but that is just how much He loves us. And to me, that's mindblowing.

wha? god gave us what now? do you belive in evolution then or not? do you think humans are the perfect creation and that our intelligence, concious mind and thought processes were all blueprinted and mapped out? Cos if i was going to create a race it would be a hell of a lot better than what 'god' has 'given' us.

You might think I'm shoving this down your throat, but I have to tell you that what 've said is the TRUTH, and it's up to you to accept it or not (I strongly advise that you do!).

riiight, now it gets to the point of crazy talk. who says it's the truth? what exactly makes it the truth? the truth is something that can be proved with facts, something which the bible hasn't got at all.

Tell me, why have we never found the cave that jesus was ressurected from?, why have we never ever dug up anything, or even got any of the famous artifacts that appear in many of the tall tales in the bible in safe keeping, becasue they never existed. Its like trying to prove that Harry Potters goblet of fire is real, that i can walk down to the local museum and see it. Or that i could perhaps buy dorethy's magic slippers on ebay, becasue after all, they are 100% real.

Its a FACT that throughout history, mankind has invented explainations for things they can't explain any other way. Medical conditions were based on evil sprits until scientists proved that they were physical illnesses and could be cured through medicine.

Natural disasters were blaimed on the gods, as a way of cleansing the earth of all the bad people.

The bible is just another explaination for the previously unaxplainable that has snowballed and got out of hand. It has been disproved so many times, in so many ways, i think it's time to move on and stop living in a dream world.

Its human nature to feel insecure about death and so on, beliveing in god helps people cope with bad experiences, which is a good thing, but preching as if it's the law and that it's real, is just plain stupid.

I obviously ain't going to change your ways, and you aren't going to be able to turn me mentle enough to believe the Bible is 100% factual,, but i just hope you have realised how unhealthly stupid it sounds.

and..

"(I strongly advise that you do!)"

why did you say that? what will happen if i don't believe, like i haven't done for the past 8 years or so? Will my soul be in torment for eternity? becaue i certainly won't be able to feel physical pain after i've died and my stone cold body is 6ft under.

Or better yet, what do YOU believe will happen if you don't believe what the bible says? Do you really hink Hell is real? Its just a scare tactic made up to stop people doing bad things, like toppiling the monarchy waaay back when the church had all the power.

Please, stop deluding yourself, it's hurting my mind.

oh and just to finish off...

I wouldnt mind the freedom to spend my days doing as i wish without some chior boy ramming panflets in my face and screaming how jesus pulled bread out his ass and pissed wine.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! OMGOD (pun intended), that's some funny shit.

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

god came around because people were too thick to explain science

[RicH_87]

god came around because people were too thick to explain science

yeh, charel said it better, i have a habit of skating around the point.

another question,

what would happen if i went around the world and destroyed every copy of every religious book/scripture/teaching, ever made??

would people just forget about religion altogether, would they remember it and re-write it, would god reappear and re-teach us all the ways of life, would even a new religion start up?

religion is all in the mind, its here becasue we keep it here, its still impossible to explain nothing, and when we die, we can't imagine just seeing/feeling nothing, becasue after all how will we know, what does it look, sound, feel like? noone knows, and certain people don't want to know, they can't deal with it, so of course they say, "no, when we die god will appear and we'll all live happily ever after".

OH AND FAMILY GUY ON CH2, IT'S A GOOD ONE, YEHHHH!

Edited February 5, 2006 by RicH_87

[benno]

It's a bit unfair of you guys to keep asking things like "what happens when we die?" to these guys, I hardly imagine they're an authority on the subject (no disrespect). It seems like a bit of a cheap shot.

That said, I'm not a religious person in any way shape or form, in fact I really dislike religion. To me the way that beliefs keep being revised to adapt to the modern way of life is evidence enough (IMO) that this stuff was created as a means to gain social power, possibly by people who really believed it, possibly maliciously. I can't see that is makes any difference to be honest.

My uncle (who through some bizarre divorces etc. is a year younger than me) has "found god" this last year and it worries my mum and his parents more than if they'd found out he was doing drugs, and I think that demonstrates well enough that some pretty big cracks are appearing as our eyes get sharper and we start to see more inconsistencies with religion. How did the once accepted way of life become something that people would actually find uncomfortable, possibly scary? How many people here get really edgy when talking to christians (sorry guys, you're the worst in my experience) about belief/fate/whatever because they're going to go off on some huge mission in defence of what they believe?

I personally think that society is slowly progressing beyond the need for religion as a way to plug the holes, and that although faith has postive effects, the bad far outweighs the good.

[1a2bcio8]

I don't mind a negative view point Rowly,but your reply was totally disrespectful. Maybe you should read the whole topic befor you post,it might give you an understanding on what's being discussed here!!

Mike

Mike.

I tried reading the topic, but I could only skim. It's just too much for my child sized motivation. Right, basically, I wasn't being direspectful, I was satirising a flaw which I feel that I see in the Christian faith. I wrote about it in the other post to do with those comical drawings of a muslim prophet. It's about that God is supposedly omnipotent. All powerfull. So he knows everything. Future, past and present. With this knowledge he created Adam and Eve knowing that the way he'd made them would lead them to break the rule he had made about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He set them up as far as I can see. The only explanation I can put to this is that God enjoys the suffering of humans. He wanted drama. Thus a world of suffering. Can you give me a better explanation? Actually I'm sure you can but I doubt I'll agree with it. But who knows.

I'm afraid you chose to take disrespect from my words Mike. No disrespect exists in those words, there was certainly no intention on my part to make those words disrespectful. I prefer to find humour in whatever I can, that's just the way I am. I think if we laughed at everything, didn't take everything so seriously, we'd all be better off.

Personally, I'm not fussed about people targetting me with religion. I enjoy talking to people, even listening to them about a god that I find to be improbable to exist. It's interesting in it's own way. I also understand that people, for the most part, do it because they believe they are helping you. That makes them decent, at least in one sense, in my opinion. Religion though, I think causes a lot of problems for us. I don't find dogma based on metaphysics to be very sensible. I prefer objectivity which science better provides. However, I don't think science is the bee all and end all. It has it's limits, for one reason because of the tools which use it - us. Being dogmatic in science is also not sensible. Especially when you look through history, you'll find that everything people thought they knew several centuries earlier turned out to be quite different several centuries later.

I personally practise zen buddhism which I don't find to be a religion, although I could see why people might. Zen doesn't work on faith or distorted/limited knowledge that science does. It works on direct experience for the individual. Meditation helps remove the conditioning of development that makes you see the world as associations rather than what lies under the associations. It helps you to find your basic perception and in turn, I think, a more accurate understanding of the nature of the world. If everyone practised buddhism, which you can easily do, even with a religion, the world would be a lot more chilled. Everyone would be digginng the flowers and indulging in tantric sex. Sweet.

You're more than welcome to insult me or what I've said in any form. I, hopefully, won't take offence

Edited February 6, 2006 by rowly

[Lewis Poyntontrials.com]

I always thought religion, even though false made people happier and better people.

But now I see its the route of most evil in the world.

Good people do good things and bad people do bad things...but only religion can make good people do bad things!

Only through religion can good people kill in the belieif that they are doing good.

Without religion most of the wars would stop, there would be no terrorist killing people in the name of religion.

Also, the problem with religion is that it teaches you to live for heaven and not live for now. I believe we are all very lucky to be alive. Think of all the events that must have occurred for us just to exist. All we have is right now. So we must make the most of our lives and enjoy now, not spend them waiting for enjoyment after we die.

As for the bible, its internally contradictory. And teaches thats its ok to rape, kill your own son and kill innocent people. I think it was moses? Who, after winning a battle and the other side surrendering told his men to kill all the men, boys and old women and rape all the pretty girls. It also paints a picture of a vindictive vengful god, who needs us to whorship him.

How any rational person can buy all this stuff is beyond me.

There is a theory called intelligent design (God based) in america which has been proved wrong but is still on the verge of being tought along side evolution in schools.

I do not agree with what the church are doing, in my experience they convert people when they are low and depressed offering them hope and a point to life.

A good analogy I heard was: If I told you there was a tea pot orbiting round the world. And there were books of the tea pot which were story's passed down from generation to generation telling us to whorship the tea pot. And there were millions of people who belived in it would you too? No one can prove that it doesn't exist because it would be too small to be picked up. But does that mean it exists though?

Science attemps to asnwer the questions of life, religion answers nothing! It teaches us not to think and question.

Thats my opinion anyway.

[RicH_87]

You might think I'm shoving this down your throat, but I have to tell you that what 've said is the TRUTH, and it's up to you to accept it or not (I strongly advise that you do!).

Mike

It's a bit unfair of you guys to keep asking things like "what happens when we die?" to these guys, I hardly imagine they're an authority on the subject (no disrespect). It seems like a bit of a cheap shot.

they brought it up.

[MadManMike]

I'll beleive in God once the guy does something for me.

I've been in crap situations and thought, well if he does exist i'll be alright - surely a nice super power like him would sort it? like hell...

I'll carry on beleiving in Charlie and the chocolate factory thanks.

The bible is a made up collection of stories that the chosen few like to beleive in...

As for death? Who know's what'll happen... but i'm alive at the moment so don't worry about it until you're too old to leave your living room.

[desire68]

Thats more like it!You guys are offering very good strong opposition,a real challenge for me and CB.Firstly to the guys who i replayed to as being disrespectful,thanks for replying back and i hope you can see where my comments came from,and no,i have no intention of being disrespectful back!

Rich-87 to answer a point that you made which really sticks out in my mind

"what would happen if i went around the world and destroyed every copy of every religious book/scripture/teaching, ever made??

would people just forget about religion altogether, would they remember it and re-write it, would god reappear and re-teach us all the ways of life, would even a new religion start up?"

Dude this is just like saying if i went around and burned all of the highway code publications,would people then stop driving or forget how to drive! i'm suer you can see that the answer in No they wouldn't

The real part of being a christian(notice i didn't say religion here as i can only comment on christianity being a christian) is having a personal relationship with God ,if i neglect my bible for any period of time that doesn't stop my relationship with God because that's based on my personal belief in him.My bible helps me for sure to get a level of understanding about the history of my belief and the future of it too(Revelation) but it's only a part of the bigger package.

To tell you the truth,we could go on with our differences for ever,but like i've previously said,a nonbeliever couldn't hope to understand the attitude of a believer and to a believer,the bible opens up in to more than just words this is why it would seem to make sense to me and not to you,not because i'm an idiot but because it's more than just words on a page to me,it's more like a manual to understanding my direct link with God,but i'm seriously not expecting you to understand what i'm on about,and thats not because i think you are all idiots,i actually am enjoing the challenge from you guys,because it's helping me to get stronger and more knowledged in my belief,It's simply because you guy's are nonbelievers so the bible would never mean the same to you as it does to me!

(Only through religion can good people kill in the belief that they are doing good)

Lewis this statement is not true for Christianity(which is what i thought we were talking about).

Just to touch on death,As christians we DON'T go through life just waiting for death to come,like it will save us from life on earth or something like that,the bible teaches us to live life and live it to the fullest,other religions MIGHT view death as being better than life because of a reward of some sort but this is not so for christianity.We see life on earth as being precious AND when we die we believe that if we have been faithful then our souls will reside in Heaven,this is not the same as living for the day you die so that you can escape to Heaven,No,we live a full life and we hope that our souls will carry on in an even better place which is heaven.

And yes i do believe that there is a Hell,it would be impossible for me to believe in Heaven if i didn't believe in Hell (this is another example of the different attitudes between believers and nonbelievers!)

Someone mentioned about the bible (Moses) saying that it's ok to kill and rape and they commented on when Someone was told to kill their son and others were told to kill men and old women.

Firstly one of the commandments says Though shall not kill,The story of a man being told to kill his son that you refer too is the story of Abraham and isaac,Abraham was being tested by God to see his level of faith,God never intended for Isaac to be killed by his father,thats why when Abraham raised his dagger to kill his only son at the Lords command,God sent an angel to stop him,and God provided a ram for Abhaham to kill instead as a sacrifice to God,and if you read the passage you will see how God rewarded Abraham for his level of faith in God.

As for God telling people to rape,you've got me there,i don't know of anywhere in the bible where God told Someone to commit rape,and as for the killing,don't forget the old testament was a time before God's will was known to man and all kinds of things were going on and thats why the ten commandments were established to give the people of those times some guidelines!

Sorry if i haven't answered some of your questions or commented on your posts but you guys really making me work here!

Mike.

Edited February 6, 2006 by desire68

[Lewis Poyntontrials.com]

Sorry if i haven't answered some of your questions or commented on your posts but you guys really making me work here!

Mike.

Its hard to defend somthing thats full of holes . Its good to question it yourself. No good blindly definding somnthing.

In regard to your comment on killing in the belieif of doing good:

Thou shall not kill - Tony Blair and Gordon Brown are really committed christians but they choose to attack Iraq. George bush is a born again christien who is advised by the leading fundamentalist christian in America, who Millions of American christians respect. Tells his troupes to kill.

Many of the American service men and woman are christiens but they still went and killed Iraqes and Europeans troupes (although that was by accident apparently)

So it would appear that when it comes down to it they desert the ten commandments.

Mike, if you are drafted to fight for our country in say WW3 would you kill or stand and pray?

Personally I believe that we all have a inherent ethical code of practise programmed into us. In the same way apes do. The way they look after weaker members of the groupe and adopt orphaned babies. A natural code of ethics that are necessary for survival.

In WW2 apparently only a small percentage of solders shot to kill because they had an inbuilt resistance to killing others.

[desire68]

Firstly Lewis i prefer to see it as standing by what i beleive in as apposed to defending it(i don't have to defend it God does that for me) and the fact that you feel that christianity is full of holes goes back to what i mentioned earlier about not being able to take on board what is written in the bible because you simply do not believe it!

You know that even in the Bible people killed after the ten commandments were issued and in time God's wrath was felt for this.

With regards to the leaders being christians,i would argue that although they are christians they are not committed christians and there is a difference!

Would i go to war or stand and pray,My bible tells me that i'm to respect thoes who are in athourityso if ordered i would go,but there are christians in the millitary who are not soldiers as there is so much more to the milatery than being on the front line holding a gun.Also just as i have a right as a christian not to sware in court, i also have the right to abstain from fighting for my country.I know he was not a christian but Muhammed ali did this back in the day,yes he was imprisoned for it but his belief was intact.

Mike

[F-Stop Junkie]

I think Douglas Adams put it best with '"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."'

So, essentially, a caveat has been put in place that to demand proof is a lack of faith. It's a case of demanding evidence and proof somehow makes you a worse person than someone who believes without question. This worries me. A lot. It's a bit like NASA being censored by the Christian Right demanding Intellegent Design be covered in NASA's own findings and reports.

Ultimatley though:

[desire68]

I know this was on page three but my brother in christ wanted to reply to a few of you,so here it is from CB!!

Hey Mike. I registered on the forum, but it wont let me reply to that topic, which is really annoying!! so I guess you'll just have to do the honours for me again!

Rich> (sorry, I'm not picking on you...)

RicH_87 wrote:

Can you honestly say you can read that post back and think, "yeh i'm making perfect sense"? I seriously can't believe you believe it all, and even call it the TRUTH. I obviously can't piss on you god fueled bombfire but all i can say is.....wow, you really can't see any flaws or inconsistencies? any impossibilities or just plain made up nonsense?

I'm not saying don't believe in God, but am i the only one that reads/hears about parts of the bible and just laughs at how rediculous it sounds?

OK, I really should've said that I believe this to be the truth. And, if you can show me any flaws/inconsistencies/contradictions in the Bible, then please show them to me! There are some, I will agree with that, BUT most of them, if not all, are to do with mis-translation. However, probably 99.9% of the Bible has been translated very well. And it could just be made up nonsense, but I have found almost every single time I've faced a challenge or something and I've gone to the Bible for help, it (or should I say, GOD) has been able to help me. Also, check this out. This shows that the New Testament is more reliable than the philosophical works of Herodotus or Thucydides, which are generally taken to be complete truth! Is it not possible that they are 'just plain made up nonsense'?

You know, there was a guy called Paul who wrote about a 3rd of the New Testament. He wrote a load of letters to churches and stuff, and in 1 Corinthians chapter 2 verse 14, which is one of the letters he sent to the church in Corinth, he says "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." which, no offence, sounds exactly like you! (Not just you, but also other people are the same.) Don't you think this shows that the Bible isn't just made up nonsense? And this is only one tiny part of millions of bits in the Bible which relate, almost uncannily, to people today. Like I said before, I have found the Bible so helpful almost every single time I've faced a challenge.

Quote:

wha? god gave us what now? do you belive in evolution then or not? do you think humans are the perfect creation and that our intelligence, concious mind and thought processes were all blueprinted and mapped out? Cos if i was going to create a race it would be a hell of a lot better than what 'god' has 'given' us.

Um, I didn't say owt about evolution. And I didn't say that I thought we humans are a perfect race either! Quite the contrary! We are complete screw-ups! We were, when first created, perfect (that's Adam and Eve). But then sin came into the world, and that's the fall of humans, and sin has been in the world ever since. And that is why Jesus came to die on the cross, so that we could be forgiven.

Quote:

who says it's the truth? what exactly makes it the truth? the truth is something that can be proved with facts, something which the bible hasn't got at all.

OK, I should've said I believe this is the truth, as I said earlier. And I'm not going to say that the Bible has proven facts (apart from there was a guy called Jesus who did die and do all that he did as it says in the Bible and did some wierd things (which the Bible calls miracles)), but can I ask, do you think that the Big Bang is truth? Or that we evolved from tiny one celled organisms? Because no one was alive when the Big Bang was supposed to happen, and no one was around to see that one-celled organisms became humans over a few billion years. (I'm talking about macro-evolution here - I know micro-evoltion/adaption is true, because that has been proven) Now this could well be true, I'm not saying the Big Bang didn't happen, and I'm not saying we didn't come from one-celled organisms. But I am saying they are not FULLY proven things, they are just theories. GOD may well have used evolution to creat us. However, there may just be a load of similarities between us and apes which point to evolution, but actually they may just be coincedences. Also, if the Big Bang is true, then there MUST have been an intelligent design behind it, as IT HAS BEEN PROVED that explosions do not give an organised product (e.g. Earth and living things). That intelligent design may not be the GOD that I and many other people know, but it does show that there is something.

(Lewis> what I just said is in answer to what you said too, Quote:

There is a theory called intelligent design (God based) in america which has been proved wrong but is still on the verge of being tought along side evolution in schools.

)

Quote:

Tell me, why have we never found the cave that jesus was ressurected from?, why have we never ever dug up anything, or even got any of the famous artifacts that appear in many of the tall tales in the bible in safe keeping, becasue they never existed. Its like trying to prove that Harry Potters goblet of fire is real, that i can walk down to the local museum and see it. Or that i could perhaps buy dorethy's magic slippers on ebay, becasue after all, they are 100% real.

I think you mean Grave. And actually, they have found it (or what is almost certainly it). It's in Jerusalem, and has more historical evidence for being Jesus' grave than the other one which could be it (of course they don't know if it is the one, becuase no one that was around when Jesus was buried is alive today). In fact, I'm going to Jerusalem and I will go and see this tomb. It's called the Garden Tomb. As for the famous artifacts, who cares? Since Jesus' times, people have been claiming they have got 'artifacts' that are holy and all this stuff, things like pieces of the cross or pieces of cloth from the robes which Jesus wore, and they range to mega strange things like milk from Mary's bosom or whatever. It's a bit stupid. I went to Rome in the summer, and went to St. Peter's (the place where the Pope lives), and in St. Peter's Square (which is the massive square in front of St. Peter's) there is a massive basilica, which has a box at the top. And apparently there is the only surviving piece of the cross inside this tiny little box, about 100 feet up in the air on top of this basilica. Err....right. I really doubt that is true. (I don't think that) there are any 'relics' or 'artifacts' left from Jesus' time, and to be honest, I don't care. It would be a bit stupid to base my faith on some piece of clothing, or some old wood that could have come from anywhere. I don't need relics or artifacts to have faith in GOD.

Quote:

Its a FACT that throughout history, mankind has invented explainations for things they can't explain any other way. Medical conditions were based on evil sprits until scientists proved that they were physical illnesses and could be cured through medicine.

It's also a FACT that people have been prayed for when they are ill and they have been cured much faster than doctors prescribe, or even they are healed from things which have no cure. For example, when I was at a Christian Conference back in the Summer called Soul Survivor, a guy was at the skatepark they had and he fell badly and actually couldnt move for about 2 hours - whenever, he did move he screamed out in pain. Anyway, he went to Hospital, and everybody at the conference prayed for him and he came back that night, and he should've at least stayed over for a night the doctors were saying. Now, are you telling me that all that is just coincedence?

benno wrote:

How did the once accepted way of life become something that people would actually find uncomfortable, possibly scary? How many people here get really edgy when talking to christians (sorry guys, you're the worst in my experience) about belief/fate/whatever because they're going to go off on some huge mission in defence of what they believe?

(There RicH, I'm off your back (for now)). Benno, I wanted to say this: As a Christian, I believe that the Devil (or Satan, Lucifer, the Enemy, whatever you want to call him) is present on the Earth. I believe it is him who makes people edgy (and frequently hostile and to the point of killing us Christians) when people get onto the topic of anything to do with Christianity because he knows it's the Truth and, because he is a fallen angel and was banished from Heaven by GOD and therefore despises GOD, wants as little people or even nobody to follow GOD and at the same time get rid of anyone who does follow GOD.

Lewis> Quote:

I do not agree with what the church are doing, in my experience they convert people when they are low and depressed offering them hope and a point to life.

Are you sure that applies to everyone though? are you sure it doesnt just apply to you?

And finally, to conclude this epic post:

RicH_87 wrote:

why did you say that? what will happen if i don't believe, like i haven't done for the past 8 years or so? Will my soul be in torment for eternity? becaue i certainly won't be able to feel physical pain after i've died and my stone cold body is 6ft under.

Or better yet, what do YOU believe will happen if you don't believe what the bible says? Do you really hink Hell is real? Its just a scare tactic made up to stop people doing bad things, like toppiling the monarchy waaay back when the church had all the power.

and again, MadManMike wrote:

As for death? Who know's what'll happen...

and it has been asked or it has come up several other times, and although some of you have said it's not fair to ask us guys (and benno, you are right, we dont have authority to say exactly what happens, but we can say what we believe happens), I would still like to say this.

Imagine Heaven is like the most incredible trials spot EVER. There is nothing else like it anywhere in the world. It has everything, from technical to lazy-boy stuff, from Natural to Street, anything you want to do, it's got it. And the best thing is, it's right on your doorstep, it's riding distance away. The only thing is, it's quite well hidden, and only a handful of people know where it is. One day, one of your riding buddies comes up to you and tells you about this place. You've never heard of it before and you never knew it existed. Now, you can either believe your mate or not. thing is, it doesn't matter whether you believe or not, it still exists. One day, you go to the place with your mate. Lets say you don't believe him at all, and you're so confident that it doesn't exist that you then don't go with your bike. But when you get there, you find it does exist and you look like a complete chump!

Now lets rewind, and say you do believe, and at the first chance you get you grab your bike and go with your mate to the place and there it is! Just as he said! And you spend all day there, but you can't get enough of it. The end of the day comes too quickly and you have to leave, but you don't want to. This place is amazing, and you're so glad that you believed your mate rather than being stubborn and saying it can't be true because nothing else like that exists.

In which scenario would you rather be in? Think about it...

[dave85]

Yeah, ive been in the "come here its a brilliant place to ride" scenario. Upshot was one stolen bike and a bruised face

Untill someone (preferably the big man himself) tells me why its such a good idea to let people suffer, I'll leave church to those who need it to support them. And if any bugger uses the argument "because its meant to happen that way", I'd like to show them the grave of a good friend of mine, and ask them why I had to lose him.

[nb88]

Who says death is a bad thing? We are only scared of it because we dont know what happens afterwards. I lost my dad quite a long time ago and i like to believe, and do believe, he has gone to heaven

[dave85]

On a selfish note, death is a bad thing. You lose the love, care, support and advice of someone.

We are only scared of it because we dont know what happens afterwards

May be the case for you, not for me and not for a lot of the people I know. Theyre not religious people though, thats perhaps the difference.