Koxx Coustllier

[Luke Williams!]

wayne is right onza boy mark you are not allowed to completly copy something to the exact specification also you are forgetting if you change something slighlty it has faults why else would a company make the original frame the way they did other than its the best possible way.

also you have to look at what koxx are doing! they hold major events they also support a hell of alot of riders.

and it is only us in the UK and americans which are such bitchs about prices etc go have a look in france and see how many people ride koxx nearly all of them there are very few echo brands and products around.

yer you have gone out and bought a copied frame like that onza thing you have thats a copy of the zoo python but which will last longer ? which feels better? obviously the Zoo IMO cause its the original with out all these shitty tweaks so it can be copied

and if you want to talk about t pro and levelboss 20" how many t pros snapped cracked? how many levelbosses?

koxx put there prices high bescause of who they are and what they do they bring out new designs before anyone else and this costs money and time also testing periods etc

deng just waits copies it and sells it maybe one day you will open your eyes to whats going on but for me KOXX are justified for the prices they sell there products at

[Dan Clark]

I think what me and Mark were getting at was, fair enough they aren't the same to the millimetre (although I think the t-pro is), fact is, no-one will able to tell that 1 or 2mm difference when you actually ride the frame. The two frames will ride the same regardless.

[Luke Williams!]

I think what me and Mark were getting at was, fair enough they aren't the same to the millimetre (although I think the t-pro is), fact is, no-one will able to tell that 1 or 2mm difference when you actually ride the frame. The two frames will ride the same regardless.

and what where gettin at is they dont! a few millimetres to a bike design is a big amount and effects the bike in alot of ways!

its like having a crank if you dont tighten a crank up tight enough to the bb by even a millimetre or so it gets rounded off or f**ks up in some way this can be said for alot of bike specific things

you dont seem to get our point at all

[Dan Clark]

Frame wise it doesn't make as huge a difference. I don't understand how you would think I meant all bike components seeing as frames were mentioned multiple times in the post and only frames are being discussed in the topic.

Ride a frame thats 1085 wheelbase with 380mm chainstays, then ride a frame with 1083 wheelbase and 379mm chainstays, or a frame with 1085 wheelbase, 380mm chainstays and an internal headset.

They are gonna feel the same, and the difference isn't gonna be worth £200 anyhow.

[Luke Williams!]

Frame wise it doesn't make as huge a difference. I don't understand how you would think I meant all bike components seeing as frames were mentioned multiple times in the post and only frames are being discussed in the topic.

Ride a frame thats 1085 wheelbase with 380mm chainstays, then ride a frame with 1083 wheelbase and 379mm chainstays, or a frame with 1085 wheelbase, 380mm chainstays and an internal headset.

They are gonna feel the same, and the difference isn't gonna be worth £200 anyhow.

it all effects the bike maybe not majorly but if your any good at riding you can tell the diffrence

i noticed the diffrence going from trying a coustellier to a t rex also ive ridden a t pro and a levelboss mod they all feel diffrent cause of the changes plus am sure we where on about koxx too ! i see how you have specifically gone onto frames as you have seen our way on the koxx issue an prices

[SQuiT-man]

Frame wise it doesn't make as huge a difference. I don't understand how you would think I meant all bike components seeing as frames were mentioned multiple times in the post and only frames are being discussed in the topic.

Ride a frame thats 1085 wheelbase with 380mm chainstays, then ride a frame with 1083 wheelbase and 379mm chainstays, or a frame with 1085 wheelbase, 380mm chainstays and an internal headset.

They are gonna feel the same, and the difference isn't gonna be worth £200 anyhow.

Totally agree.

The millimetres dont make a difference at all, its the centimetres that are noticable. If someone shortened your 385mm chainstays to 380mm somehow while you were asleep, you wouldnt notice any difference when you rode the next day.

As for the zona/zoo python thing, the majority of people who have ridden both prefer the zona, as it is a more lively ride. Riding a python for a while IMO is not fun, as the chainstays are longer, making the bike less responsive, and heavier on the arms while on the backwheel, whereas the zona is like a feather on the backwheel- perhaps the tweaks onza made paid off.

[Dan Clark]

i see how you have specifically gone onto frames as you have seen our way on the koxx issue an prices

What? This has always been about frames.

Try-All components apart from the rims are mostly different from everyone elses, and aren't as extortionate, except the rear mech, but no-one cares about that.

[Luke Williams!]

Totally agree.

The millimetres dont make a difference at all, its the centimetres that are noticable. If someone shortened your 385mm chainstays to 380mm somehow while you were asleep, you wouldnt notice any difference when you rode the next day.

As for the zona/zoo python thing, the majority of people who have ridden both prefer the zona, as it is a more lively ride. Riding a python for a while IMO is not fun, as the chainstays are longer, making the bike less responsive, and heavier on the arms while on the backwheel, whereas the zona is like a feather on the backwheel- perhaps the tweaks onza made paid off.

you deffinetly would feel the diffrence from 380 to 385 i can assure you on that i dont see how you couldnt also as for the frames if you want to precieve that changes dont make a diffrence your pretty thick hence why there called changes and are noticable its like having a fake louis vuitton bag from a distance you dont notice it but when you get close up an feel the bag you do the same can be said for frames IMO anyways this debate is going nowhere

Edited January 26, 2006 by LukeBrisaRider

[Mark W]

The T-Pro frame is ordered from the catalogue from Pulo, the Taiwanese frame manufacturers. After a while, the IP on a frame runs out, and the company manufacturing it (Pulo ) can release it as a frame for anyone who wants it which I think would be arranged previously by the designers (Koxx). Therefore, Onza bought the T-Pro frame, which was the Levelboss frame.

Also, most IP revolves on the fact that to protect your design it has to be significantly different to others. "Extreme" frame geometries such as the Vinco would probably count there, but I think it'd be fairly damn hard to actually protect frame geometry, as there's a million ways you could get around using the same geometry (which is just angles) as long as you didn't use the same construction techniques (which is what you generally protect when you use IP rights). That's why there are quite a few frames out with near enough exactly the same geometry. Don't forget you can pretty much rule out wheelbase totally when you're talking about measurements, seeing as fork choice and shit like that means it's altered anyway.

Again, there's more, but my fingers are f**king killing me. First band practise in a while, and my hands = raped...

/\ The above is all what I've been told by other people on the scene. If you're able to point out that it's wrong I'll gladly accept your own versions of it...

yer you have gone out and bought a copied frame like that onza thing you have thats a copy of the zoo python but which will last longer ? which feels better? obviously the Zoo IMO cause its the original with out all these shitty tweaks so it can be copied

Haha, nice assumption there Luke. Unfortunately, you're totally wrong, "IMO". I've ridden Zoo CLSs back-to-back with my Zip, and I prefer the Zip every time, as do most other riders who try them both out. The 375mm stays on the Python just felt like shit to me; the 10-15mm shorter stays on the Zip and the extra BB rise, coupled to a slightly longer front end mean that it feels totally different. I can spin, sidehop, gap, etc. my Zip way more comfortably than I could on the Python. Also, they use the same great ideas as the Python, e.g. the CNC'd sideplates and top plate so it's ridiculously stiff, and stuff like that. Seeing as it's got quite a bit of material on the go, I'm pretty sure it'll go the distance, myself.

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

only two things in this life are infinite, the universe and stupidity , i'm only sure about the second one

[Simon]

and if you want to talk about t pro and levelboss 20" how many t pros snapped cracked? how many levelbosses?

Why do people never think outside the box. I bet if 1 levelboss's cracked out of 2, then 2 T-pro's cracked out of 15, you'd still be like, "more t-pro's cracked, clearly a worse frame". Yes you didn't say that, but you implicated it.

How many T-Pro's were sold. Now how many Levelboss's. Now how many of each cracked/snapped.

I'll think you'll find the ratio is almost identical to the amount sold, and the amount cracked/snapped.

Just wanted to clear that up.

[Luke Williams!]

The T-Pro frame is ordered from the catalogue from Pulo, the Taiwanese frame manufacturers. After a while, the IP on a frame runs out, and the company manufacturing it (Pulo ) can release it as a frame for anyone who wants it which I think would be arranged previously by the designers (Koxx). Therefore, Onza bought the T-Pro frame, which was the Levelboss frame.

Also, most IP revolves on the fact that to protect your design it has to be significantly different to others. "Extreme" frame geometries such as the Vinco would probably count there, but I think it'd be fairly damn hard to actually protect frame geometry, as there's a million ways you could get around using the same geometry (which is just angles) as long as you didn't use the same construction techniques (which is what you generally protect when you use IP rights). That's why there are quite a few frames out with near enough exactly the same geometry. Don't forget you can pretty much rule out wheelbase totally when you're talking about measurements, seeing as fork choice and shit like that means it's altered anyway.

Again, there's more, but my fingers are f**king killing me. First band practise in a while, and my hands = raped...

/\ The above is all what I've been told by other people on the scene. If you're able to point out that it's wrong I'll gladly accept your own versions of it...

Haha, nice assumption there Luke. Unfortunately, you're totally wrong, "IMO". I've ridden Zoo CLSs back-to-back with my Zip, and I prefer the Zip every time, as do most other riders who try them both out. The 375mm stays on the Python just felt like shit to me; the 10-15mm shorter stays on the Zip and the extra BB rise, coupled to a slightly longer front end mean that it feels totally different. I can spin, sidehop, gap, etc. my Zip way more comfortably than I could on the Python. Also, they use the same great ideas as the Python, e.g. the CNC'd sideplates and top plate so it's ridiculously stiff, and stuff like that. Seeing as it's got quite a bit of material on the go, I'm pretty sure it'll go the distance, myself.

that is the most sense i have heard you talk ever yus koxx would have to give rights for them to use there design but usually they are copyright protected! so even though they have given them the rights to the spec they are still not allowed to copy the frame exactly. but that maybe only the UK and american law taiwan could be totally diffrent and no this can be for anything specific it doesnt have to be majorly diffrent just diffrent the problem is is that if koxx where to go around sueing everyone 1. they would look bad 2, it would cost shit loads of money anyways so its kinda pointless.

yer but onza are smart and improve on a design where on about koxx designs and koxx copies not zoo's, in all fairness i hate zoo but i see what your saying. but thats mostly down to zoo's poor quality at creating a good frame for everyone like koxx manage to do hence why they copy designs most of the time!

[Tom Booth]

This Thread has turned into complete trash and a sponcership battle......Nice one lads

[Mark W]

also you have to look at what koxx are doing! they hold major events they also support a hell of alot of riders.

I wouldn't say they were the only ones? Onza sponsored the Bike Show, put on that International Trials Grand Prix thing or whatever it was called, do demos, help 2 British champions ride worlds rounds and shit like that. Yes, Koxx run Koxx days, but I'm guessing it's not for no profit. I'm not saying they're scum of the earth 'cos they want money, but it's all about making money, isn't it. I know you'll dispute that, but you'd still be wrong

Also, I didn't say "You can copy a frame exactly", which you seemed to be implying I did...

yer but onza are smart and improve on a design where on about koxx designs and koxx copies not zoo's, in all fairness i hate zoo but i see what your saying. but thats mostly down to zoo's poor quality at creating a good frame for everyone like koxx manage to do hence why they copy designs most of the time!

You were the one who specifically mentioned the Zona Zip and the Zoo Python

Equally, not many of Deng's frames are similar to Koxx's. Furthermore, I'd say that almost anyone could find a suitable frame from Deng's range. Don't forget it's not just Zoo, in that there's Zoo, GU, Adamant, Echo. Out of those (and there are probably more, that b*****d ), almost anyone could find a frame to suit their needs, seeing as most do. I'm willing to bet more people on T-F own a frame made by Deng rather than Koxx

[Luke Williams!]

Why do people never think outside the box. I bet if 1 levelboss's cracked out of 2, then 2 T-pro's cracked out of 15, you'd still be like, "more t-pro's cracked, clearly a worse frame". Yes you didn't say that, but you implicated it.

How many T-Pro's were sold. Now how many Levelboss's. Now how many of each cracked/snapped.

I'll think you'll find the ratio is almost identical to the amount sold, and the amount cracked/snapped.

Just wanted to clear that up.

I wouldn't say they were the only ones? Onza sponsored the Bike Show, put on that International Trials Grand Prix thing or whatever it was called, do demos, help 2 British champions ride worlds rounds and shit like that. Yes, Koxx run Koxx days, but I'm guessing it's not for no profit. I'm not saying they're scum of the earth 'cos they want money, but it's all about making money, isn't it. I know you'll dispute that, but you'd still be wrong

Also, I didn't say "You can copy a frame exactly", which you seemed to be implying I did...

nope they way you wrote it said you did but i may of miss read,

am understanding what your saying i have no dispute over onza there a smart company doing the british biketrial scene some good creating cheap frames for those who cant afford which means more riders

am talking about copies of koxx mostly yer you got me on the zoo onza thing but when it comes to koxx its a totally diffrent story, i wouldnt say there where more sales of t pros than levelbosses they came out at a diffrent time and a bet alot mroe koxxs got sold world wide than onza's

all i can say is koxx are justified for there high prices and i would gladly go out an pay there prices,

i have a deng frame myself by the way and i loved my echo pure and control!

Edited January 26, 2006 by LukeBrisaRider

[Mark W]

am talking about copies of koxx mostly yer you got me on the zoo onza thing but when it comes to koxx its a totally diffrent story, i wouldnt say there where more sales of t pros than levelbosses they came out at a diffrent time and a bet alot mroe koxxs got sold world wide than onza's

I still think more T-Pros have been sold There were a shitload of them around, and more beginners could afford them, which is why so many NMC bike pics threads have them in there. Saying that, they're still good for other riding (e.g. Slinger doing super well on his). Anyway - that's not the point. I'm still pretty sure (almost certain ) that more T-Pros have been sold... Probably have to do the gay thing and 'agree to disagree' though

[Luke Williams!]

sometimes i hate being a virgo but then again i love it

i leave with some of my pride still intact

[SQuiT-man]

you deffinetly would feel the diffrence from 380 to 385 i can assure you on that i dont see how you couldnt also as for the frames if you want to precieve that changes dont make a diffrence your pretty thick hence why there called changes and are noticable its like having a fake louis vuitton bag from a distance you dont notice it but when you get close up an feel the bag you do the same can be said for frames IMO anyways this debate is going nowhere

Well cheers for the insult, but I'm not "thick", especially when it comes to these kind of things as I may be doing a masters degree in mathemetics and engineering. So you think that ANY difference at all from the geometry of koxx' bikes at the drawingboard would make them ride craply in comparaison? As I'm "pretty thick hence why there called changes and are noticable", would you explain to me how much difference there must be in the geometry to make it ride craply? 1mm difference in chainstay length? It's still a difference, but you can make that much difference by accident, just by tightening your rear QR in a slightly different position, or having one extra twist on your chain tensioners on your mod.

Just think about things you say for a second- "its impossible to copy a frame"- that itself means that each of koxx frame's themselves are not EXACTLY the same as eachother, there will be minor errors in production which mean some will be 5mm longer than others, have 2mm longer/shorter chainstays, and perhaps a degree difference in headangles between frames MEANT to be the exact same, made by the same people.

As for 5mm difference in chainstay length making THAT MUCH of a difference when you are talking a long stock with 380-385mm stays, that is rubbish. The difference it would make to your riding is negligable, you would ride just as well.

And now zoo's are apparently made to bad standards of quality?? How many python's/pitbulls have you ever heard of breaking? Compare this figure to the proportion of Koxx XTP's that have broken, or even levelboss', which even one of my lightest trialsing mates managed to break at the chainstays.

[Mark W]

Well cheers for the insult, but I'm not "thick", especially when it comes to these kind of things as I may be doing a masters degree in mathemetics and engineering.

Not being picky, but if you "may" be doing one, that suggests you haven't actually acquired the knowledge from it, and I doubt there's a "trials frames" syllabus there Not saying you're El-Retardo or anything though, don't get me wrong

Just think about things you say for a second- "its impossible to copy a frame"- that itself means that each of koxx frame's themselves are not EXACTLY the same as eachother, there will be minor errors in production which mean some will be 5mm longer than others, have 2mm longer/shorter chainstays, and perhaps a degree difference in headangles between frames MEANT to be the exact same, made by the same people.

The copying was in terms of one company copying the other, not making identical frames off the same production line. Quality control would probably mean you wouldn't get the large variations in sizes you're refering to, and seeing as they're all made in jigs and shit like that it'd probably be safe to say the majority will be near enough exactly the same...

Again, not trying to be a dick or anything

[Dan Clark]

I don't see how quality standards are applicable here when they are all made by Pulo, and I've seen two Koxx Levelboss's with a bent "sticky out bit of top tube after seat tube".

[Dr. Nick Riviera]

same shit , different stickers

get over it

mark and dan are right

[SQuiT-man]

Not being picky, but if you "may" be doing one, that suggests you haven't actually acquired the knowledge from it, and I doubt there's a "trials frames" syllabus there Not saying you're El-Retardo or anything though, don't get me wrong

I wasnt hinting at that, I was just hinting that Im not a "thicko", and Im into the scientific side of engineering, so should be able to understand that a couple of mms in geo difference wouldnt make it ride rediculously different.

The copying was in terms of one company copying the other, not making identical frames off the same production line. Quality control would probably mean you wouldn't get the large variations in sizes you're refering to, and seeing as they're all made in jigs and shit like that it'd probably be safe to say the majority will be near enough exactly the same...

Again, not trying to be a dick or anything

Why I said that was just because of what has been said in this thread about how its "impossible to make an exact copy", and luke seemed to be hinting that if when the geo of koxx bikes are changed at all in the slightest within the process of another company "copying" them, it will ride much differently (even though many of them are made of the same alloy). Which of course it wont when the differences we speak of could be within the margin of error of the origional company's production line anyway.

[Krisboats]

I think the koxx frames are really way too high or the general market. But then again is a koxx aimed at the general market? Companies like zoo and echo and onza are most definately aimed at the general market which is clear from the way the majority of people ride them. The majority of people don't want something that won't last very long but is slightly lighter when they can have something thats cheaper and will most likely last longer, especially if it's only used for riding in your local town or occasionally on some nearby rocks.

The koxx's are aimed at a more professional level where riders compete a lot and have to have a frame that can handle the competition courses, they're not exactly going to go out and rag a professional level bike round the streets for a bit of a laugh with a couple of mates are they? I think that is why the xtp is priced that high, so the top riders can have a reliable bike that rides well. The most specialist pieces of equipment in anything are more expensive... computer components, tap dancing shoes, cars etc.

The average rider isn't going to notice much difference in a frame geometry really either, and a few mm will not hinder or improve on anyones abilities. I know for a fact that a few degrees difference in the headtube of a frame would not be enough for me to notice and it doesn't really take that long for someone to adapt to how a different bike rides, i can pick up a mates bike and be completely weird on it for a couple of minutes but after a little while i can ride it just as well as i can my own unless its completely different like going from a trials frame to a kona or something.

I also don't get why people think it's alright for a company to charge more for something because they sponsor riders and support loads of people. Thats one of the stupidist things i've heard for a long time, a company should never charge the customers more for their marketing/publicity campaigns.

I'm not really a fan of looking like everyone else either, the whole long low and silver thing really isn't very appealing. Which may be why my shiny red base sticks out from everyone elses zoo's when i go on a big ride. A long low silky blue bike is much more appealing to me, or a bike thats anodised in exactly the same colour as the dairy milk purple off their foil wrappers.

anyway thats my opinion on pretty much everything thats been said so far. funy how this hread got so serious from someone asking where a koxx-coustellier frame is available from.

[Tomm]

And if koxx lowered the prices a bit, they would get more customers.( i guess?)

Koxx are a business, in exactly the same way as Onza/Deng/BT etc are. They obviously think that their frames are at the right price point for them to make money. If it was as simple as just lowering their prices and getting more customers and making more money, they would have done it ages ago. It seems to me to just be simple economics - As long as there are people who will pay £800 for a frame, Koxx will still have business. The only way that will ever change is if we decide enough's enough and we stop buying Koxx bits.

There's not really any point complaining about it when we are the ones at the root of the problem. If it bothers you, buy a cheaper frame from another manufacturer