Towler Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 (edited) Were monty and koxx not sort of the founders of the trials products industry? Like montys used to be really common and also did koxx not start all the coloured rims etc?? .... I don't really know any of these as facts... but koxx was the first i knew who did coloured rims etc.... and also from watching old videos like revolution (i think it was that) there are alot of montys. anyways this discussion is kind of turning stupid. its like so what if a company charges more than another. Koxx charge more and monty charge more and at the end of the day they provide better support for the sponsored riders. If u don't like the prices... ne luck (why cant an audi TT cost the same as my corsa... its not fair lets post on a forum about it!! ) Edited January 25, 2006 by Towler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_Tupman Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Oh dear looks like I oppened a can of worms After reading everything i think because Koxx does so much development and surport riders around the world this justifys the higher prices.And as Porter said the retail prices of Deng stuff hasent gone down it's just everyone has had to drop prices because Deng will not stay loyal to one importer like Koxx do.No matter which way you look at it Deng's bikes/products are mostly reincarnations of everyone elses hard work.I look forward to seeing you at Addingham Wayne i'm sure the topic of disscusion will be very comical as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukeee Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 (edited) Ha £495.00 what a joke! Koxx needs to get with the times people don't pay that kind of money when they can get a Deng bike at half the price.£795 for the XTP-R thats just not funny!People said £695 was expensive for a Triton Deema but at least its Titanium. I really think the XTP-R is over the top price wise...But i'm sure someone will buy it. Edited January 25, 2006 by Lukeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SQuiT-man Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Lol, this looks like an interesting debate. Personally, I like koxx and what they do for the sport, but I definately agree that they would sell more if they lowered their prices, and could then make perhaps even more profit and help the sport grow much more at the same time. I dont think it has anything much to do with colours of frames personally, I mean you could buy your deng frame with good geometry for £300 and have it painted proffessionally any colour you wanted for another £30 or whatever.anyone ever heard the saying buy cheap buy twice????You say that, but Im sure an anodised (or silver-choice of colour! lol) zona zip for £159, cheapest frame out there, would out-last an XTP mod at £550 million per frame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janson Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 i bet a casio watch outlasts a rolex if you're lucky.if you want the prestige, and the "best frames" you have to pay up. i'd never pay 500+ for a frame, but that's me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I think it's more just a case of look at the XTP - Koxx's near top of the range model, 'cept for maybe the sig models - and the Pitbull and Python. Only heard of 1 or 2 of the Pitbull/Pythons sold breaking, and they've sold f**king loads. On the other hand, not as many XTPs have sold, but I've seen quite a few broken ones. I'm not getting into "He/she didn't use it right" debates here, just making a point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIX Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 How much was the origonal coustellier?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janson Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 5-600 at a guess.i paid ~300 for mine. brand new. with warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarky Posted January 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 This is a good debate!Clarky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Drewery Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 Ha £495.00 what a joke! Koxx needs to get with the times people don't pay that kind of money when they can get a Deng bike at half the price.£795 for the XTP-R thats just not funny!Tell me about it! I nearly bought the XTP R until I found out how much it was! I went for the Czar, same frame but nearly £500 cheaper!Dont you have a coust anyway Jason? If so try something different, the koxx coust is too similar to your current frame to be spending that kind of money on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipus Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 (edited) After reading everything i think because Koxx does so much development and surport riders around the world this justifys the higher prices.true, in a way. The effect of sponsoring people like tra etc, would make people buy koxx frames/parts.So they actually dont lose money if they give away frames for free.And if koxx lowered the prices a bit, they would get more customers.( i guess?) Edited January 25, 2006 by tipus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petit_pablo Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I see koxx as a prestige brand. Like the ferrari of the trials world!If i competed in trials comps, i would buy a proven comp frame, like a koxx as i know it would do me justice!Zoo/echo frames are, i suppose, comparable to a fiesta! Does the job, there are loads around but is nothing really special! The price reflects this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipus Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I see koxx as a prestige brand. Like the ferrari of the trials world!If i competed in trials comps, i would buy a proven comp frame, like a koxx as i know it would do me justice!Zoo/echo frames are, i suppose, comparable to a fiesta! Does the job, there are loads around but is nothing really special! The price reflects this.ehm, and what makes koxx frames so special? If a world champ rode a deng frame in a comp, im sure he would get the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 ahem , i'd now like to point you all in the direction of the onza t-rex nuff said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Clark Posted January 25, 2006 Report Share Posted January 25, 2006 I see koxx as a prestige brand. Like the ferrari of the trials world!If i competed in trials comps, i would buy a proven comp frame, like a koxx as i know it would do me justice!Zoo/echo frames are, i suppose, comparable to a fiesta! Does the job, there are loads around but is nothing really special! The price reflects this.However, Zoo/Echo frames are made from the same materials, to the same standard, to the same geometry as Koxx frames, and in the case of the higher end models, out last them.Just because it has Koxx written on the side doesn't make you hop any higher.Anyway, Onza T-Rex > all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waynio Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 I see koxx as a prestige brand. Like the ferrari of the trials world!If i competed in trials comps, i would buy a proven comp frame, like a koxx as i know it would do me justice!Zoo/echo frames are, i suppose, comparable to a fiesta! Does the job, there are loads around but is nothing really special! The price reflects this.However, Zoo/Echo frames are made from the same materials, to the same standard, to the same geometry as Koxx frames, and in the case of the higher end models, out last them.Just because it has Koxx written on the side doesn't make you hop any higher.im sorry but i must take your nobel prize back off you. you can not physically COPY something, it has to have a difference, hence why the echo/zoo DO NOT have the same geomtry as a koxx. mind over matter there my friend, you knowing not alot makes a funny difference to me, cos your like most other kids on this forum, your posting on "guess work" and NOT on "Facts"Waynio......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 There's no law on geometry, it's more about the way the frame is made, the materials and how they're used and so on. You could pretty much exactly copy the geometry of any frame you wanted, and as long as you didn't make it in the same way you're fine.Either way, T-Pro is almost totally identical ('cept for aesthetics like anodisation + headtube) to the Levelboss mod frame geo wise and looks wise? Well, the old one leastways. Can't remember if they beat the mod Levelboss with the same ugly stick they beat the stocks with... +55mm BB rise, 362mm chainstays, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Clark Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 I personally would class two frames, both having 380mm chainstays, 1065 wheelbase, same rise BB and similar if not the same head angle as having the same geometry yes. Everything that affects the ride of a bike is the same.What exactly do you mean by people can't copy geometry?Mark's example of the T-Pro is the best, its the exact same frame as a Levelboss but with a different headtube.Dan............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 Not to mention the amount of re-branded parts out there which even Koxx themselves are guilty of? Frames are components too. But there we go. People are making good frames, not the end of the world really. I guess at the end of the day, everyone seems to be making some great frames now. If you can't afford the ones from Koxx, it's a near guarantee that you can find nearly identical geometry to what you're after from another brand, and for a lot cheaper. Seeing as almost all the House of Deng™ stuff seems to last super, super well these days, everyone's a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waynio Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 lmao.yes a t-pro is a good example, BUT its generically different. or shall i go downstairs and measure them exactly to the MM????if something is "IDENTICAL" it is then a copy therefore illegal if the company have rights to the geometry/design,hence why the bike has to change i think something stupid like if you have an integral headset that can be a difference and a tweek in the geo, a degree or half a degree in the headangle makes things so different aswell. so all mark the boy and dan clark are trying to do is make it out that everything is the same so go buy the thing thats cheaper (in some respect they are correct BUT when it comes to frames they are in correct)you name me two frames that are exactly the same and get measurements off them then send me them, then i will measure them too and we will see, i would say that it is quite impossible to do(altho with the state of the trials market now, there probably struggling to change things that much that most of the stuff is more or less the same just made from shit materials). iv not ridden a bike EXACTLY the same as my belaey. as it cant be copied. it has rights to the owner of it. some frames maybe similar etc but not the same. if someone made it exactly the same it would be different in some other way. the way alloy as a material rides can change the bike completly.but your obviosly seasoned pro's world champions and already know this shit so i will rest my case that your so much cleverer than me. iv seen/been to many bike shows not trials orientated and if ANYTHING is copied or there abouts companies can sue for millions as they are taking there designs. the only times they get away with it is when it is NOT patented to the customer. obviosly people can take things as they want but i have quite a long history in the cycle trade and i have not come across any frame that has FELT the same as another one, even with the exact same setup.Waynio............................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 although i agree wayne , as a consumer i'll have to say i dont mind who made it or who designed it , as long as its going to last and doesnt cost a bomb , im not really worried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 The main problem with your post Wayne is that you haven't really got the point I would explain more, but I'm going out for a ride, and you'd still just go "BUY KOXX ANYWAY"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waynio Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 i wouldnt say buy a koxx.you buy what is right for you weather it costs £100 or £600. its what suits and makes you happy. if you buy a £300 frame and dont like it and you buy a £400 frame and its right you wasted the first amount of £300. therefore buy what you like, as i was saying mark, its my opinion on things. Waynio.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefletch Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 (edited) Without having read the entire thead/arguement. Koxx produce mainly competition frame, this was clear at an international event like koxx days, where 90% of the bikes there where not koxx bikes but they weren't echo's of one a deng's creations.Deng and his many companies can be compared to 'Cherokee', the tesco's clothes. The principle being, there just replica's of other brands that have put there own money, development and reputation into designing the products. Admittedly its mainly children and mature adults that buy these clothes, but thats irrelivant in this arguement.Deng represent tesco's, he creates replica's that are priced cheaper because it costs less for him to buy a tape measure and copy other frames than design them himself (i.e. hifi and XTP).The only difference is. In the growing sport that is Bike Trials, there are many ATG's as i know them. (ATG=all the gear, no idea). These are the people who have been riding about one month and have amazing bikes but dont even know which brake lever is for which brake. These people are not completely stupid as they do have the sense to buy a Deng bike which is cheaper for the reasons above. This i feel solves the arguement of why....actualy, i cant even remember what im argueing about, just wanted to express my feelings towards the matter.This also ties in nicely with the sponsership arguement that was here the other day, buts that might get complicated Edited January 26, 2006 by thefletch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waynio Posted January 26, 2006 Report Share Posted January 26, 2006 i love you fletch.someone else who can see from a wider angle and view and not just through a 2cm round tube of pipe.Waynio.........................PS i hope your going to koxx days fletch also its like you say go to the "worlds" and "Euros" and you see the majority of the riders have koxx or monty bikes there is few if any echo/zoo etc on the circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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