chrishayton Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 titanium can flex a little so the frame is bouncey. and thats what the spanish swear by. look at the monty's there flexy and there riders sidehop america on them. also the frame weights about 3.5lb's now for comps thats god damn good. also the track record for the company that makes these frames is very very good. in 4 years they have had 2 or summit frames back that cracked. now thats pretty good. if you are ever on a group ride with me just ask and have a go and relise how pimp this frame is. peace out simon erm the monty ti frames arent ti, just the bolts and spokes are. so the spanish swear by aluminium actually Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ducko Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 that is the sex! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thechink Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 i said they swear by flexy frames not ti frames. they swear by the bounceyness. simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishayton Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 i said they swear by flexy frames not ti frames. they swear by the bounceyness. simon ahh fair dos. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Wood Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 Where was that picture taken Si-man? Nice ride, good to see innovation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Titanium is obviously abit good other wise it wouldn't be used on harrier jump jets and the likes. They use wood pulp to make paper. That doesn't mean we should make trials frames out of wood pulp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipkickbs Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 (edited) They use wood pulp to make paper. That doesn't mean we should make trials frames out of wood pulp. Looks like its going that way......... I wouldn't trust titanium as far as i could throw........ well, i wouldn't trust titanium, Preload too hard and you pedals will be on the floor. Also with rear discs creeping in i doubt Ti frames would be able to handle the forces of a rear disc. Correct me if i'm wrong on that one though. Ian Edited November 30, 2005 by flipkickbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SQuiT-man Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Looks like its going that way......... I wouldn't trust titanium as far as i could throw........ well, i wouldn't trust titanium, Preload too hard and you pedals will be on the floor. Also with rear discs creeping in i doubt Ti frames would be able to handle the forces of a rear disc. Correct me if i'm wrong on that one though. Ian Why shouldn't it? Ti is sooo strong. Infact, say aluminium was this strong: <--------> and steel this strong: <-------------> Ti would be this strong: <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> A well designed ti frame should be able to handle anything in the trials-world. 3.5lbs is pretty light though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulSection7 Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I wouldn't trust titanium as far as i could throw........ well, i wouldn't trust titanium, Preload too hard and you pedals will be on the floor. Also with rear discs creeping in i doubt Ti frames would be able to handle the forces of a rear disc. Correct me if i'm wrong on that one though. What are you basing this mistrust of titanium on? Are you automatically thinking it's crap because it's not a popular material to make trials frames from? A very quick bit of research shows that the common titanium alloys used for bike frames are: 1. Approx 56% density of steel, 66% MORE dense than aluminium. 2. About 65% tensile strength of the best steels (eg Reynolds 853, 953), about twice as strong as the average steels (eg 4130). About 300% greater tensile strength to 7005-T6 aluminium. In other words, out of steel, aluminium and titanium, titanium has the highest strength to weight ratio: 15-20% better than 853, 85% better than 7005-T6. 3. Similar fatigue properties to steel - in other words if you keep the abuse within a certain threshold the frame will last forever. Aluminium frames lose strength with each cycle. 4. Has far greater elongation (how far it will bend/stretch before it breaks) than either alu or steel. So, for the same weight, it can be made stronger than steel and alu frames. Or for the same strength it can be lighter. It doesn't fatigue like aluminium frames. It will bend a lot more before it brakes than either of the other materials. I didn't find much about the dent resistance of ti vs steel/alu. But given that the tubes will be thicker than those on aluminium frames (as the material is stronger, you don't need such large diameter thin walled tubes) it would seem safe to assume it would resist dents far better than your average XTP downtube. In lots of ways titanium is an ideal material to make bike frames from. Unfortunately it is expensive, harder to work with and people have less experience designing frames, particularly trials frames, to make the most of it. I certainly wouldn't rule it out just because Onza/Koxx/Echo don't make frames from it (yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Harrison Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 And for the record, most of the failed disk mounts I have seen on aluminium trials frames have been due to fatigue. As you say Paul, it shouldn't dent as easily as your average (your? :lol: ) XTP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that NBR dude Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Steel - Steel bike frames are actually composed of a steel alloy. These combinations create steel that has high strength, and is fairly light and durable. Steel bike frames are still widely used due to their affordability. The Good / The Bad - Best steel alloys are very strong - Best stiffness overall - Long-lasting - Air-hardened alloys make ultra-high strength affordable - Can be heavy - not the materials for big, light frames - Rust-prone Aluminum - The same amount of aluminum is less stiff, lighter weight, and less strong than a comparable amount of steel. However, because aluminum is lighter, it is widely used especially in sport and mountain bike frames. It is also because of these qualities that aluminum frames generally have noticeably larger tubing diameters and thicker-walled tubing. This tube design allows aluminum frames to have adequate stiffness and still be lighter than comparable steel frames. The Good / The Bad - One-third the density of steel, allowing the use of big tubes - Easily formed into aero shapes - Even cheap frames can be light - Makes a light frame for a big rider - Doesn't rust! - One-third to one-half the strength of best steels and titanium (can break) - One-third the stiffness of any steel, which requires larger diameter tubes - Modest fatigue strength - Not easily repaired or straightened - Big, thin tubes means easy crash damage Titanium - The same amount of titanium is lighter weight and has less stiffness than comparable amounts of steel. To compensate, builders of titanium frames use somewhat larger diameter tubes to bring the stiffness more into line with what riders like. This tends to increase the weight a bit, but by making the walls of the larger tubes a bit thinner, makers can compensate to some extent and build a frame that is still lighter than a normal steel frame. In general, titanium bike frames are known to have most of the advantages of aluminum and steel bike frames. The Good / The Bad - Half as dense as steel, making the lightest most resilient frames - As strong as most steels - Wont rust - no paint needed - Good fatigue strength - Makes a light frame for a large rider - Half as stiff as steel (and known to be somewhat flexy) - Difficult to repair - Expensive Carbon Fiber - Carbon fiber is an increasingly popular frame material, but it is fundamentally different from metal tubing as a way to construct frames. They are made by gluing together layers of exotic synthetic fibers. Because of the fibrous nature of this material, it has a much more pronounced "grain" than metal does. A well-designed carbon fiber frame can have the fabric aligned in such a way as to provide maximum strength in the directions of maximum stress. Unfortunately, in bicycle applications, carbon fiber is not a fully mature technology. Carbon fiber or composite bike frames are very light making them popular with mountain bikes. The Good / The Bad - Readily molded into exotic shapes - Excellent fatigue strength; no rust - Strength and stiffness are controllable - Low density and high strength make very light strong frames possible - Expensive raw material - A bomb if poorly designed or made (too stiff or too flexible) - Can be "notch sensitive" (prone to breakage) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionic Balls Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 titanium is much more brittle than steel and aluminium due to it crystal structure (HCP)....so if it's gonna break..i guess it'll be a sudden thing (IE: crack..not all this bend shite).. adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipkickbs Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 Why shouldn't it? Ti is sooo strong. Infact, say aluminium was this strong: <--------> and steel this strong: <-------------> Ti would be this strong: <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> A well designed ti frame should be able to handle anything in the trials-world. 3.5lbs is pretty light though... What are you basing this mistrust of titanium on? Are you automatically thinking it's crap because it's not a popular material to make trials frames from? A very quick bit of research shows that the common titanium alloys used for bike frames are: 1. Approx 56% density of steel, 66% MORE dense than aluminium. 2. About 65% tensile strength of the best steels (eg Reynolds 853, 953), about twice as strong as the average steels (eg 4130). About 300% greater tensile strength to 7005-T6 aluminium. In other words, out of steel, aluminium and titanium, titanium has the highest strength to weight ratio: 15-20% better than 853, 85% better than 7005-T6. 3. Similar fatigue properties to steel - in other words if you keep the abuse within a certain threshold the frame will last forever. Aluminium frames lose strength with each cycle. 4. Has far greater elongation (how far it will bend/stretch before it breaks) than either alu or steel. So, for the same weight, it can be made stronger than steel and alu frames. Or for the same strength it can be lighter. It doesn't fatigue like aluminium frames. It will bend a lot more before it brakes than either of the other materials. I didn't find much about the dent resistance of ti vs steel/alu. But given that the tubes will be thicker than those on aluminium frames (as the material is stronger, you don't need such large diameter thin walled tubes) it would seem safe to assume it would resist dents far better than your average XTP downtube. In lots of ways titanium is an ideal material to make bike frames from. Unfortunately it is expensive, harder to work with and people have less experience designing frames, particularly trials frames, to make the most of it. I certainly wouldn't rule it out just because Onza/Koxx/Echo don't make frames from it (yet). Titanium - The same amount of titanium is lighter weight and has less stiffness than comparable amounts of steel. To compensate, builders of titanium frames use somewhat larger diameter tubes to bring the stiffness more into line with what riders like. This tends to increase the weight a bit, but by making the walls of the larger tubes a bit thinner, makers can compensate to some extent and build a frame that is still lighter than a normal steel frame. In general, titanium bike frames are known to have most of the advantages of aluminum and steel bike frames. The Good / The Bad - Half as dense as steel, making the lightest most resilient frames - As strong as most steels - Wont rust - no paint needed - Good fatigue strength - Makes a light frame for a large rider - Half as stiff as steel (and known to be somewhat flexy) - Difficult to repair - Expensive WHOA! i got served. You lot really went all out on the correct me if i'm wrong offer. I just really don't see the point in a ti frame, I mean maybe for world class competitions but for 695 quid i doubt even comp riders will be buying in a hurry. And only around 300grammes odd weight loss, which in a comp could be easily lost by just changing a tyre etc. My personal opinion on the whole thing anyway. Cheers :lol: Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Harrison Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 If you're unsure, ask Raleigh. In fact don't, they won't remember the days when they had a team of World class riders on some of the best frames every made. But anyway, this was made for Raleigh Special Products in russia - titanium. complete with disk mount... and a lot of research went into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave85 Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 A well designed Ti frame will last practically forever barring big stacks, so its a good investment. After all, there are enough XTPs about the place, and they cost more and die quickly. I dont see why the Triton shouldnt be a big success. More than the weight loss, which is minimal in this design, the ride feel is very different to any other material, its springy and flexy. Ride one before you dismiss it out of hand :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that NBR dude Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 If you're unsure, ask Raleigh. In fact don't, they won't remember the days when they had a team of World class riders on some of the best frames every made. But anyway, this was made for Raleigh Special Products in russia - titanium. complete with disk mount... and a lot of research went into it. Where did you get that picture from?? Ive been looking for it for ages...... ahh those were the days :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukeee Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 WHOA! i got served. You lot really went all out on the correct me if i'm wrong offer. I just really don't see the point in a ti frame, I mean maybe for world class competitions but for 695 quid i doubt even comp riders will be buying in a hurry. And only around 300grammes odd weight loss, which in a comp could be easily lost by just changing a tyre etc. My personal opinion on the whole thing anyway. Cheers :lol: Ian I'd just like to point something out. The Koxx XTP 26" Retails at £695.99 and seems to of sold pretty well world wide. Now this frame is churned out in a factory in the far east at a very very low cost to Koxx. Their isn't anything amazing about the materials used in this frame or the quality of workmanship but they still feel they can justify the £695.99 price tag. That to me is not "Realistic" pricing. Now I'm sure if you do an internet search you will find that Titanium frames usually are sold for a much dearer price than ours. We like to think weve been "Realistic" with the pricing. I do admit its still at the top end market of trials but thats what we wanted. When we started TritonBicycleCo. we wanted to make the frames we wanted out of the best material we could find. Theres loads of frames out there for £299.99 thanks to Deng and his ever changing bike company names. We don't intend to sell millions of frames. Theres the standard Deema Geometry, but if thats not your cup of tea you can customise away even down to the graphics and finish. Its a bit more like every frame is a one of creation for that person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Bleech Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I would love try a 24" ti frame - i think it would be awesome, maybe one day when funds could allow (but probably not :lol: ) I remember drooling over a Litespeed Owl Hollow back when I rode 'proper' bike haha If Koxx can sell the XTP then Triton should have no probs selling the Deema. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Harrison Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 And not only that but there'll be excellent customer service too. How many companies and distributers give you that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houseface Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 love it!! even though i dont ride 26" :P :- cost a bombshell though (N) bet that will keep the number of owners down :closedeyes: steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 (edited) As far as I have noticed, many participants of this discussion know little about characteristics of Titanium used in our frames. First of all, it is hard to scratch. A lot harder than alu. That's why your frame looks mint after a year of hard riding. I have a Ti frame here which is almost 5 years old now and it looks clean and sexy, though we went through some tough riding with it :closedeyes: Ti frame is more difficult to bend than an alu one. I could easily compare that when I had my Zoo bike. It would take me ages side hoping on my chainstay trying to make the same dents on my Ti frame as I had on Zoo. Still we are putting plates on the frame and chainstays that will make sure you get rid of any possible dents. Yes. You can dent and kill any frame on the market. But Ti will last clean a lot longer. You make an unsuccessful gap, hit you down tube...getting ready to see a deep dent in your frame...but there is nothing...or just a little scratch.. This stiffness weights so little. But it is pretty difficult to manufacture. You have got to have an argon gas atmosphere to be able to weld Ti. The gas is blown directly to the welding spot with a high pressure. Ti is hard to curve when you prepare the tubing. It really takes time. It is EXTREMELY difficult to CNC. The whole work costs a lot of money. It takes a few days. Than there comes shipping and customs. So retail price is pretty high. But you get a custom luxury hand-made frame with your measures and ideas in it. We are not making mass production stuff. We are making products that you will be proud to own. Just to let you know. 20" and 24" are coming soon. You will be amazed. Edited November 30, 2005 by Gazza Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that NBR dude Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 I am extremely excited to see how my mod turns out. Waiting patiently for Luke to drop it on my doorstep :closedeyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishayton Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 so theoretically you can have any geo youd want?(respectivley) hmm i like the idea of a wb1090 cs380mm +20 Ti frame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazza Posted November 30, 2005 Report Share Posted November 30, 2005 That's right Chris. Any geometry you wish. We can also play with plates, disk brake mounts, magura/Vee mounts, top-tube curving, adding saddle compatibility, etc. We can even make a 3 meter long limo bike. Not sure you will be able to hop on it though :closedeyes: + Forks are coming soon. They will be matching the frames in colour and will be light and strong. We plan to make 20", 24" and 26" forks. Disk or non-disk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_Tupman Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 Just to let you know Luke i'm still very intrestead, i'm just doing some testing of some rear disc brakes so i no how i wnat the disc mount :huh: Sounds all very exciting at the moment though, can't wait to see a pic of the forks, from what i've heard they are pretty revolutionary ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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