sexymike Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) PMSL!!!! :lol: welds on dengs frame eh... lets backtrack a little. Remember when he brought out the pitbull.. cough...cough coustellier copy... cough! and OTN had a bunch of pics showing the welds in close up. They were aweful. There were gaps in them and some bits had been stopped and then the welding restarted. Ive been unfortunate enough as to have seen my fair share of echo/zoos and i doubt they have improved much since then. Especially when an importer i know was accidently sent the invoice that was from the factory meant for Dengs eyes only. Lets say they cost about the same as a NIKE shirt to make :P lol but anyways i dunt care really... .i dont ride them things. peace.... whatever u wanna ride.... ride! You sir are a twat, the welding cant be that bad on the new echo frames seeing as none ever brake i hate people like u and should burn in hell It is nice to know that the person who welded my frame (Clive Leeson :) ) actually knows what trials is, and that he isn't working in a sweatshop for a bowl of rice a day. Let's face it, anyone can weld aluminium with an hour's training and the right tools. Tom that doesnt bother u at all, just cos u got leeson uve gone all home grown, pah its bollox did u koxx ever fail u? LOVE davetrials. Edited September 23, 2005 by sexymike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 *sigh* Isn't it lovely when the "Steel is real" crew brand aluminium frames as "un-unique" and "all the same". If you actually chart the progress of trials frame design, a LOT has happened in the last 3 years. At the moment, a lot of people are using variations on the same theme, but that's just because these frame designs work, and it's just a case of companies using their own ideas about geometry on the basic frame concept. When was the last time there was a fully innovative steel frame? The last "new" design for a steel frame was the 26Ghz, and that was being finished up in '03. Curtis' and Leeson frames are almost identical frames, save for a few tiny design feature differences (360 dropouts on the Leeson), but the basic frame is exactly the same. Almost all steel frames have exactly the same style front triangle and rear triangles, so I don't really get why you're all slating aluminium frames then creaming over steel frames? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave85 Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 hmm, dont want to stoke the fire, but streetjibs has a point, the first zoo frames had some pretty poor welds. The one i saw had bits of welding rod sticking out here and there, bad runs, grinding marks etc. As he pointed out, that was the first frames of echo and zoo, and lots of them broke (es and em series, lynx etc.) deng is a clever man, he's making frames for peanuts, selling them for a fortune, and each time we get bored of a brand, he makes a new one and sells a shedload more frames for very little design change. In any case, i'd rather have a well thought out frame than an innovative one thats been made for innovative's sake. Almost all aluminium frames have the same front and rear triangles, just different tube forms, dropouts and gussetting. Steel is limited by the conservative outlook of the main tubing manufacturers, thats why most steel frames look the same, its not through want of imagination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRA Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Echo had some bad bikes(mostly the alu`s fault) and some bad welds at start, but it was a new company and everything cant start on top, you cant be a president after a year at school, but still most people says your lame if your not?. But the last years i do beleive ECHO(and qiang dengs other brands) has earned the respect of good bike products and its clear that theyr motivation is to be the best . The amount of products of them that fail these days are extremely low, and because of this its quite safe to say that theyrs products are some of the top products beeing built in the trials market. People have a strong tendency to focus harder on the negative sides then rather on the positive sides, its like a human syntax error, but how about opening the minds and facings the strong and good facts Deng`s products come up with these days? things cut short .. live in the present and face the facts and reality, go for what you yourself like... and stop whine unless it will result in peace on earth or anything else that is considered highly important for our lifes. And i dont think comments on message boards do just this .. embrace the positive, negativity is the side to the dark side of the force . And we wouldnt want that would we? =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadly venom Posted September 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 TRA, I must say, that was very well said. You made some good comments about the products from Deng Industries. From what I’ve read the products from Deng industries are trusty worthy and well built. Me being new to trials I was hesitant about buying an aluminum frame. But if riders like you can do the kind of things that you do it seems that I don't have anything to worry about. I did not know I would cause such a debate when I posted this thread. Ride on, Deadly Venom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve sturt Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 I personally would rather have a short little steel bike, that I can repair myslef if it cracks. When riding an aluminium frame, its hard to feel that you are riding somehting special, as everyone has the a variation of the same thing. With a steel bike, (in this current climate of mass produced chinese aluminium frames) you can at least be assured that the person who put it together at least had some sort of pride in the end result. Its just a shame about the price you have to pay for a steel frame these days that prevents me getting a new one, and the limited market. With an aluminium bike, you can just sort of pick you wheelbase etc and buy the best priced thing that meets your specs. They would be the same more or less. Just the way I like frames. Maybe Im just being old school and nostalgic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that NBR dude Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 There doesnt seem to be this kind of issue when it comes to cars though, and thats 50x more expensive. With a car, you pick your engine, gearbox, colour and away you go. You dont get that feeling that you're driving "something special" yet you dont moan like this. Same with design. Seat Leon is a Golf, Mini is a Feista, Skoda Oktavia is a VW Passat, ect ect. So Deng has a lot of brands, so does General motors, but you dont go, "oh I would rather drive a thing I made in my shed" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRA Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 well actually .. some would =P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munkee Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) They all Deng's Yeah whats happened to steel and craftsmanship... things companys like pashley are famous for. I beleive it has something to do with the fact that none of these so called famous companys are willing to take a leap in to the year 2005 and update any of their geometry. People dont want to ride bikes that feel like shit and to be honest... every steel frame i have touched.. felt like shit. I bought a toxsin because it was cheap for what is it. You wont find any steel frames for the same price that ride so nice. Its all down to personal preference though i expect. There will always be the divide, but just because a new aluminium frame has been released doesnt mean the steel jizz crew has to come along and slate it.. afterall.. what do they know about "long low and silver" their last alu frame was probably a koxx levelboss... things have changed a lot. Oh yea and about the brazing thing... it is loads harder than arc welding/mig welding when you start out (not as easy to just pick up and go) and it has to be one of the most time consuming things ever (think waiting for a leeson).. my dt project for a level was all brazed and it drove me f**king nuts. Edited September 23, 2005 by Spacemunkee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan@Trials-uk Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Some nice parts I must say. :) :P, Oh, and nice sites to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streetjibs Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 You sir are a twat, the welding cant be that bad on the new echo frames seeing as none ever brake i hate people like u and should burn in hell oooh name calling and threats.... ooo aint we taking it all a bit too personally!! :) grow up kid!! anyways... didnt wanna have to post this again, just to prove my point about the welds! (and no im not saying the bikes are crap - we all know there not. im just pointing out the quality of the welds... draw your own conclusion) here it is... http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/showthrea...tbull+picturesy. ... its just a bike remember :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishayton Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Right im curious to this but what the hell is all the hype about steel frames for? yeh the good for street as the are apparently stonger, but for full on trials (comps or otherwise) aluminium frames have the edge. so what if its hand made by some one in this country( not being anti patriotic before someone lays into me ) the current top brand alu frames(koxx echo zoo) are all made to a high quality level so just because you dont know who made it doesnt mean its unreliable. before people say steel frames are better as the feel better, think of all the top end competive trials companys (monty koxx echo), non of them use steel. who was the last world rider to win the world champs on a steel frame? For street/playing then a steel bike is great, but for trials (in any form street (not the spinny, bunny hoping) and comp use ) aluminium bikes are better, you cant just slate a bike due to it being aluminium. and on a slightly seperate topic why dont a trials company who make steel frames make a UCI style frame? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave85 Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 Right im curious to this but what the hell is all the hype about steel frames for? yeh the good for street as the are apparently stonger, but for full on trials (comps or otherwise) aluminium frames have the edge. so what if its hand made by some one in this country( not being anti patriotic before someone lays into me ) the current top brand alu frames(koxx echo zoo) are all made to a high quality level so just because you dont know who made it doesnt mean its unreliable. before people say steel frames are better as the feel better, think of all the top end competive trials companys (monty koxx echo), non of them use steel. who was the last world rider to win the world champs on a steel frame? For street/playing then a steel bike is great, but for trials (in any form street (not the spinny, bunny hoping) and comp use ) aluminium bikes are better, you cant just slate a bike due to it being aluminium. and on a slightly seperate topic why dont a trials company who make steel frames make a UCI style frame? go on then, prove that :) peyto and desalvo make uci style frames Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streetjibs Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 go on then, prove that :P peyto and desalvo make uci style frames hahaahaaa... U beat me to it Dave85! was just bout to say that also lets not turn this into a steel vs aluminium thing... thats soooo last year! :lol: lol its all about quality.. If there is a nice aluminium frame with good quality welds and great geometry then i think it deserves good praise. mmm i think il leave it there for now :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishayton Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 (edited) go on then, prove that :) peyto and desalvo make uci style frames as i said aluminium trials bikes are better for pure trials, you name me a steel frame that performs as well as a koxx XTP in comps? or a monty 221ti? the proof is in the results Edited September 23, 2005 by chrishayton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave85 Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 All the results demonstrate is that the bike industry is geared up to produce alloy frames cheaply. No one in their right mind would sanction building a more expensive frame to compete on (reynolds tubing is about 100 quid a set, compared to u6 at probably a tenner). Just vested interests, thats all.... If you convince vincent to ditch koxx, i'll find a steel frame that he will win on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
streetjibs Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 how much is rider skill and how much is bike?? Surely u cant say steel isnt as good because vincent wins on aluminium so therefore aluminium is better. Riders like V and others at that level i believe could ride and win on any "trials" bike. But its interesting topic now... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishayton Posted September 23, 2005 Report Share Posted September 23, 2005 All the results demonstrate is that the bike industry is geared up to produce alloy frames cheaply. No one in their right mind would sanction building a more expensive frame to compete on (reynolds tubing is about 100 quid a set, compared to u6 at probably a tenner). Just vested interests, thats all.... If you convince vincent to ditch koxx, i'll find a steel frame that he will win on. Seen as though you brought koxx and vincent up. Vince has a new bike nearly every month each with different geo( so they have sanctioned building a more expensive frame to compete on) to try and create him a perfect trials bike, but they havent used steel once. im not saying they are crap, but i just dont see the proof to all this hype. why is steel superior to aluminium. maybe if the steel frames actually had nice geo then it would change peoples mind. but for some reason steel and 'oldschool geo' are associated together. anyway this isnt really the place for this discusion, maybe make a new topic, and let the discusion continue. how much is rider skill and how much is bike?? Surely u cant say steel isnt as good because vincent wins on aluminium so therefore aluminium is better. Riders like V and others at that level i believe could ride and win on any "trials" bike. But its interesting topic now... :) yeh but he wouldn't win on the current trend in steel frames. and thats not was i was saying, but if steel is betterthan why dont these top companys use it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave85 Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 Ive said it before, vested interests and basic economics, nothing higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bquamb Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 BLAH!!!!!!! :S oh my god! the new zoo! stickers are super ugly! wtf were they on??? i mean come on! (Y) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhenoVenom Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 (edited) Posted on observedtrials a long time ago: 100mm bb shell +10 380 1090 71 Edited September 24, 2005 by PhenoVenom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 Steel i the roots of trials along with the original stock bikes which were actually stock, and so steel frames of today try to keep the original essence of trials alive. Its a nostalgia thing. Steel and alu both work just as well as each other (although steel is cheaper to manufacture than alu, think back to GCSE science, alu has to be extracted at great cost from it mineral ore through electrolysis, and its expense is the reason why cars are mostly made of steel) but some people are stuck in the past whereas others want to be riding the waves of change. And as for the individuality of alu frames... Youd be hard pushed to find two bikes with an alu frame exactly the same... trials isnt that popular and so there arent that many alu frames floating around... and to someone who has never heard of trials, an alu frame like a pitbull or whatever will look far more individual and original to them than any steel frame will. Anywho, trials is about riding, not image. Not everyone can afford a custom built steel frame you stuck up snobs :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SQuiT-man Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 When you say "good welds", are you talking about what they look like, and how much care appears to have gone into them, or HOW WELL THEY HOLD TOGETHER? The zoos and echos of today seem to be very strong, and VERY stiff compared to steel frames, yet also light and cheaper. Think of how many zoo pythons have been sold, and the useage they have been put through, yet how many have broken? Those that have broken are often just due to manufacturing problems, and have been replaced. I dont think steel bikes are bad, I would like to have a more stereotypically "modern" UCI geometry one like one that has been posted above, as the flexy properties of steel allow them to be springier, but as steel is heavier, tubes have to be made thinner and this often results in very easily dented tubes..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve sturt Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 Right im curious to this but what the hell is all the hype about steel frames for? yeh the good for street as the are apparently stonger, but for full on trials (comps or otherwise) aluminium frames have the edge. so what if its hand made by some one in this country( not being anti patriotic before someone lays into me ) the current top brand alu frames(koxx echo zoo) are all made to a high quality level so just because you dont know who made it doesnt mean its unreliable. before people say steel frames are better as the feel better, think of all the top end competive trials companys (monty koxx echo), non of them use steel. who was the last world rider to win the world champs on a steel frame? For street/playing then a steel bike is great, but for trials (in any form street (not the spinny, bunny hoping) and comp use ) aluminium bikes are better, you cant just slate a bike due to it being aluminium. and on a slightly seperate topic why dont a trials company who make steel frames make a UCI style frame? You said it right there sir. Some of us just aren't deluding ourselves with visons of grandeur. Im never going to be Vincent Hermance. I dont like competing. Playing on my bike, is what I enjoy best, as do most of the riders here I guess. I just personally would rather play on a fun little steel bike, than a mass produced aluminium barge of a bike. I just happen to think that the market has been saturated with aluminium Koxx/Echo clones, and it would be nice to see somehting that breaks the mould somewhat. It may be that the geometry is becoming homogenised, thorugh "development" and the manufacturers feel they have found the perfect formula, but there is still a place for a fun little play bike, for naostalgic fellows such as myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
george_bush Posted September 24, 2005 Report Share Posted September 24, 2005 Yea i dont like it that a bike ahs been massproduced thets why i goyt a pashley because it was hand made in strayford upon avon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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