New Onza Frame

[andyroo]

STILL not reading properly... especially Mark

Onza, to be fair, dont have the kind of reputation they deserve. Two of their better frames are regarded to be copies, so no "reputation" is at stake.

SO... releasing an off the shelf frame will cover the prototyping costs for their own design frame and give them someting to fall back onto if the design they eventually release is just too weird for Joe public...

So saying that onza need to have guts to release the Ben Slinger proto is justified, its a big leap in frame design, and covering their backs by releasing a copy of the python would be ideal if it all goes wrong.

How many people have bought a T Pro? Loads. And how many people have thought, "I'll have an onza, but i want a long mod" So how many Python copies would they sell? More than the T Pro i reckon. Which would be a lot more money to play with to give them the budget to actually release crazy designs like Ben Slingers mod.

I keep saying the same thing over and over using different phrasing; but only one person has the idea of what im on about

[Trials Punk]

I've read through this post and found it very confusing. I still don't have a clue what andyroo is on about and still don't understand the meaning of life.

[andyroo]

I've read through this post and found it very confusing. I still don't have a clue what andyroo is on about and still don't understand the meaning of life.

←

D'oh, i give up :)

[ScotchDave]

STILL not reading properly... especially Mark

Onza, to be fair, dont have the kind of reputation they deserve. Two of their better frames are regarded to be copies, so no "reputation" is at stake.

SO... releasing an off the shelf frame will cover the prototyping costs for their own design frame and give them someting to fall back onto if the design they eventually release is just too weird for Joe public...

So saying that onza need to have guts to release the Ben Slinger proto is justified, its a big leap in frame design, and covering their backs by releasing a copy of the python would be ideal if it all goes wrong.

How many people have bought a T Pro? Loads. And how many people have thought, "I'll have an onza, but i want a long mod" So how many Python copies would they sell? More than the T Pro i reckon. Which would be a lot more money to play with to give them the budget to actually release crazy designs like Ben Slingers mod.

I keep saying the same thing over and over using different phrasing; but only one person has the idea of what im on about

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What is this nonsense about having the "guts" to release the slinger frame??? It is a prototype, get me, the frame will be released once it is ready. It's not a case of too weird, it's a case of getting it right first time. Look at the woodstock, something like 7 protos were made.

If onza were to just release a copy of the python that would be silly as it may even attract a lawsuit, however a tweaked python would be very nice as it would offer a good design to a wide range of customer at a great price.

On the long stays thing, with longer stays you have more leverage against the ground so can probably get more power in, another thing being it will take longer to pull up the front end so in the time you can also get more power down.

Oh and Andy, I have read your posts, I do understand english. :)

[Will Arnold]

So why dont onza cover the costs of researching a new frame, and satisfy a market of people who want long frames by just releasing a rebadged frame?

Like i say, it would give them time and money to do something of their own creation

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if its that easy, why dont you do it ?

[ryan]

ive just measured it and it 1045wb with curved forks. its a very ridged bike with minimal flex and not really that heavy for what it is. I know it sounds long for a mod but ive just come of a 1000 wb bike and dosn't feel to different. side hops better and gaps alot bigger, it just dosnt move around as easyly, so probably more of a street bike than natural.

cheers

Ryan

[andyroo]

Goodness sake, if you don't understand now, you won't understand if it comes and whacks you over the head with a chair.

TIME=MONEY

PROTOTYPING A FRAME=TIME

so

PROTOTYPING A FRAME=MONEY

If you have money coming in, you can afford to take more time in prototyping something without fear of going bust. Releasing a long frame will bring in a LOt more money.

Releasing a frame with the such a dramatic difference to the norm DOES take guts, especially with a company as small as onza. When was the last some such a different idea was marketed? Zoo! made a jump similar but nowhere near as dramatic from the lynx to the pitbull.

If it doesnt sell as well as itplanned, the company could go bust. So its a risk. And risks take guts.

And also it wont attract a lawsuit, the factory making the frame is entitled to sell the frame to anyone they want to.

And as for Wills comment, i dont own a company to get the trade prices.

[ScotchDave]

Onza aren't small. :)"

[Luke Drewery]

What more is there to say apart from its a blatant zoo copy but who cares? Its much cheaper and rides the same, so you get more value for money. At least onza are trying new designs such as the ben slinger signature frame (the one with the strange lowered chainstays) unlike most other companies at the moment.

[andyroo]

Onza aren't small. :("

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No your right, they are huge company selling millions upon millions of units, with an annual turnover of a billion pounds. :)

Trials companies are small business mate

[ScotchDave]

Yes, but in relation to the rest of the trials market onza are not small "mate". :)

[andyroo]

Yes, but in relation to the rest of the trials market onza are not small "mate". :)

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No, you dont get it. In the real world, a company that makes huge sums of money is a large company, and a company that doesnt make so much is a small company.

Money is worth the same in both companies, so it doesnt matter if your a trials company or not, if you are a small company you are a small company. Meaning big decisions will cost a smaller company a lot more and will be a greater risk to them.

For example:

If both onza and porsche decided to make a watch with their brand logo on the fascia, they would have to consider the cost of research and production compared to what they take in. For Porsche, it would be a doddle, a dip into the petty cash. For onza, a lot more thought would go into it because the ratio of the money it would cost compared to what is made would be a lot lower, meaning that if something went wrong, it is more likely to cripple the company.

So releasing the Slinger proto is a risk because of the ratio of the research compared to onzas intake of money. So selling a frame that is not a risk because it is a gaurunteed sale like the python copy would increase the ratio of money out to money in, making it safer for onza to do, and allowing more time for research into making the frame as good as it can be.

[rhythm_101]

i think he was talking about the animal :)

[ScotchDave]

No, you dont get it. In the real world, a company that makes huge sums of money is a large company, and a company that doesnt make so much is a small company.

Money is worth the same in both companies, so it doesnt matter if your a trials company or not, if you are a small company you are a small company. Meaning big decisions will cost a smaller company a lot more and will be a greater risk to them.

For example:

If both onza and porsche decided to make a watch with their brand logo on the fascia, they would have to consider the cost of research and production compared to what they take in. For Porsche, it would be a doddle, a dip into the petty cash. For onza, a lot more thought would go into it because the ratio of the money it would cost compared to what is made would be a lot lower, meaning that if something went wrong, it is more likely to cripple the company.

So releasing the Slinger proto is a risk because of the ratio of the research compared to onzas intake of money. So selling a frame that is not a risk because it is a gaurunteed sale like the python copy would increase the ratio of money out to money in, making it safer for onza to do, and allowing more time for research into making the frame as good as it can be.

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The thing is, if porsche decided to design a new car it would cost them a million or two, but if onza want a proto frame, it won't cost them that much more than a production frame I'd guess.

[Matthews]

Looks very nice indeed but its just a python 05 :) Maybe more designs like their danny butler sidehop frame would be nice :(

[Will Arnold]

maybe onza have just realised that super long mod frames arent the way forward :)"

i dont see any need for long bike to be honest, in what way does it benefit a rider?

if someone would like to explain how it makes you sidehop or backwheel higher, then i'd love to hear it :(

ta

[andyroo]

The thing is, if porsche decided to design a new car it would cost them a million or two, but if onza want a proto frame, it won't cost them that much more than a production frame I'd guess.

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My example was trying to show that Porsche has a much wider and larger market giving them space to test and stuff, whereas onza cater for a very select market and cant afford to make a mistake.

The research and testing costs a lot, and setting up all the equipment to make on off frames costs a hell of a lot too. You have to sell so many of the product just to get your initial investment back.

Do you see where im coming from now?

[yoyoyo]

Might just be me but it looks quite complicated round the botom bracket

[ScotchDave]

My example was trying to show that Porsche has a much wider and larger market giving them space to test and stuff, whereas onza cater for a very select market and cant afford to make a mistake.

The research and testing costs a lot, and setting up all the equipment to make on off frames costs a hell of a lot too. You have to sell so many of the product just to get your initial investment back.

Do you see where im coming from now?

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Apparently most taiwanese companies don't set up a jig for a proto frame, they just weld them very carefully without, this reduces the cost hugely. :)" Do you honestly thing onza would have produced the eight or so proto mod frames they did a while back if it was so dear to make them?

Also porsche's market isn't that huge, after all you have to be able to afford one. :( :)

[Ducko]

very nice frame from what one can see!

might have to buy one if they are out soon depends on price and geo etc first!

looks good thou

every frame is copyed from another design in a way so thats no problem!

i think it looks very nice!

go onza :("

ps stop accting like children please and just pass on comments like bloody adults :)

[Will Arnold]

i spy some drilled fork legs! :(

:)

[Simon]

I couldn't care if they re-invented the wheel, or if Onza bought England. Until they update there god damn site, i won't care what they do.

Showing new prototypes is all well and good, but showing the 2003 range of bikes is just, plain stupid.

[Mark W]

It kinda has been updated. They've got every bike they've released on there now, which is a start I guess.

3 years in the making, anyway :(

I would post up a reply about the fact that it's not really a risk if they develop it properly (second proto already, after a short space of time says "yes, they are developing it properly". My prior involvement with a test program and knowing what they do says "yes, they are developing it properly". Knowing how they developed the Woodstock says "yes, they are developing it properly", and will continue to do so), but it doesn't really seem to be sinking in. What's say we quit talking shit about Porsche, and watches, and instead realise that basically, the Python copy will be a different version of the Python frame at a reduced price.

This is a pretty good thing.

The Slinger mod is, according to Mike, hopefully going to be produced.

A totally different mod out there is a pretty good thing.

All together: a pretty good thing.

Sorted...

EDIT - missed out a page of replies, somehow...:

STILL not reading properly... especially Mark

Onza, to be fair, dont have the kind of reputation they deserve. Two of their better frames are regarded to be copies, so no "reputation" is at stake.

SO... releasing an off the shelf frame will cover the prototyping costs for their own design frame and give them someting to fall back onto if the design they eventually release is just too weird for Joe public...

So saying that onza need to have guts to release the Ben Slinger proto is justified, its a big leap in frame design, and covering their backs by releasing a copy of the python would be ideal if it all goes wrong.

How many people have bought a T Pro? Loads. And how many people have thought, "I'll have an onza, but i want a long mod" So how many Python copies would they sell? More than the T Pro i reckon. Which would be a lot more money to play with to give them the budget to actually release crazy designs like Ben Slingers mod.

I keep saying the same thing over and over using different phrasing; but only one person has the idea of what im on about

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Singling me out as "not reading the posts" seems a bit whack, really...

The reputation of a company isn't just the frames they produce: it's the pricing (and therefore value for money), customer care, the warranty/replacement system, other components, how they support the sport - if you compare the early Onza to the modern day Onza, it's pretty easy to see that they've struggled to get to the place they're at now. Their first mod bikes were, by their own admission, based on the knowledge that SuperCycles had gained from their time in the BMX world. Therefore, they focused on strength improvement in places that weren't as important in the trials world as in the BMX world, and didn't focus on places that needed support. The initial frames weren't extensively tested, and therefore they died.

Lots.

The early square-tubed frames died quite willingly, and therefore they got a bad reputation. Again, I'm guessing primarily down to BMXers not raping frames, etc. as much as trials riders, their handling of early warranty jobs led to them not getting a good reputation. In fact, I remember when I first came on here I was one of about 10 people who'd actually admit to owning an Onza product. Now, they're regarded as a pretty good company. The Supercycles 2-year crash replacement is one of the (if not the best) warranty system in trials, and they seem to almost always be fair with how they deal with customers. They stock a good selection of parts catering to the starter rider/someone on a budget up to the more elite riders (Such as Tensile cranks and so on). They've slowly built up their reputation. So I'd say it was deserved, contrary to your:

"Onza, to be fair, dont have the kind of reputation they deserve."

I might've been reading it wrong, but who knows. This is the internet after-all, where tones of voice are shown using little yellow faces...

Anyway, yeah, testing stuff: The T-Bone street mod frame was a new idea. No-one else was making a steel, street mod frame back in 2002. This was just when street was kicking off, and they were one of the first companies to try and help out with getting street riders parts that weren't just for competition usage, and thus likely to break. During the initial testing of the T-Bone, they didn't do anything to their product line-up (the gap from the T-frameset being changed to the T-Pro using the '02 T-Pro round-tubed frame and the T-Mag using the Master frameset had been detailled significantly before the T-Bone was made, as far as I can remember...). Altogether, they made over 7 different T-Bone frames. Again, I'd know as I raped about half of them... The point of this is that testing frames isn't cheap. One off production, compared to the price for a mass produced item, is almost always going to be higher. The welding and so on can't be done shoddily - ESPECIALLY if they're testing for strength like they were with the T-Bone, because it'll give an unrealistic view of the lifespan of the frame.

If Onza had just released the initial T-Bone, I'm pretty sure they'd either have gone broke from warranty replacements, or the damage to their reputation would've been too great and they'd probably have closed down the Onza side of SuperCycles and focussed more on their XC, DH, duel/4X or road side of business. They do know what they're doing with testing frames, and they seem to do it quite frequently - again, the Woodstock went through a LOT of variations over a long period of time. This means that when they came to release it, they knew it would be a good frame, and wouldn't snap like kindling. They in effect played it safe, which is what they seem to do with all their product development, and basically - it works. So it's not a "risk" to produce the Ben Slinger mod, and I'm guessing they're not showing that they're producing another potential mod to try and get more money or anything...

Referring back to your post though, so you don't think I haven't read this one properly :) - they don't need to produce an off-the-shelf frame. It wouldn't be a super good idea, mainly 'cos they'd need to test it anyway, and their product range is doing OK as it is. The Slinger mod is an addition to it, not taking away anything, so they're not financially at risk. Seeing as each Levelboss frame costs $60-ish (or maybe even less now?) per item, and they sell them for £169 frame only, they're making enough money from that. Also, you seem to be disregarding the other succcessful elements of SuperCycles business. They aren't just in the bike industry for doing trials, remember.

So anyhoo, yeah... er... what I said...

Edited June 14, 2005 by Onzaboymark

[Caleb]

I think you meant onza t-pro when you said levelboss mark :).

so why didnt they actually bring out the t-bone?

had the wasted enough money time and effort trying to design a succesfull version so initially just gave up or what?

Cheerio

[Mark W]

Levelboss copy/T-Pro. T-Pro/Levelboss copy, basically... I was saying that 'cos for the Pulo frames I believe it to be $60, but the T-Pro might be more with different headtube, etc...

Anyway, the T-Bones kept dying, basically. I think I had around 4, and Olly had 2 or 3. Olly cracked his frame, I'd basically stopped riding, so I quit my contract and quit riding and sent Olly my frame. He rode it, but I think it tore in half or something equally funny... It was weird really, 'cos the last one had 2.0mm thick straight gauge tubing for the top 'n' down, and then Reynolds triple butted rear triangle. We're talking pretty good shit here, but they could never get the headtube gussets right, sadly.

The T-Rex, steel T-Raptor and Woodstock development took over, basically, so they decided to focus more on those bikes, which they have now done. They've got the stock range dialled, so they're tinkering with the mods (e.g. new T-Mag, and so on) now, hence the proliferation of new mod frames.