Siders77 Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 (edited) By you saying "when will Onza ever learn..." it suggests that you already know the geo of that frame and are saying that it's short. You also say that long works, why is it that the current World Champ is riding a Monty? If I'm the only one that thought that I'll retract my statement, but I'm fairly sure others thought the same as me. ← I agree with you, Rob. I've just made the change from a Zoo! Copy to a Monty 221ti and feck me! Compared to my Zoo! the Monty feels so much nicer! I used to bum long bikes but now i'm back riding a short bike my opinion has totally changed! So yeah. I'm 100% behind you on this one, Rob :( Edited June 14, 2005 by Siders77 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 So they're a bit behind on the mod range, theyve put time, effort and money into making TWO shit hot stock bikes, which are untouchable for the price. Just 'cos they havent got round to selling carbon copies of the zoo is no reason to chuck your toys out of the pram. ← oh but it is as he knows all about trials and has telepathic skills which allow him to know that short wheelbased bikes are no good for trials and that this one is going to suck as hard as he does come the weekend :(" its a bike for trials , wheres the beef? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 So they're a bit behind on the mod range, theyve put time, effort and money into making TWO shit hot stock bikes, which are untouchable for the price. Just 'cos they havent got round to selling carbon copies of the zoo is no reason to chuck your toys out of the pram. ← Im not getting annoyed at onza, im getting annoyed at the people who read the first two words of a post and then reply to it with their own idea of what they have written. Just because someone has copied a picture from OTN of this bike, doesnt mean it'll happen. what ever happened to the zoo python 04 style onza mod? Whenever their has been a thread about new onza frames in which Mike Poyzer has responded, ive asked about the idea of having the frames released in two sizes. And surprisingly enough, people like longer frames not because they like the prospect of entering CLS rear end, but because they are taller and find it easier to handle. Its a whole market of poepl that are missing out on, purely for what, a few extra cm? So many poepl regard the onza mod frames as being beginner frames, purely because they are short! Just to think, if onza release an already thought out copy of the long python, then they have something for that market which will give them time and money to tesearch into a long design frame of their own! So why dont they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boon racoon Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 f**kin' aye...the handbags and pepper spray are already out and it's only been posted for an hour :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 STILL none of you are actually taking the time to read what ive written! I am not saying that short bikes are crap. WHAT I AM SAYING is that onza has no market for longer mod bikes, which, at the rate they sell at, would be a good move. Im not saying this from a geo, how it rides point of view, im talking about from a business point of view. If onza fling out a long copy of the python, they will have both sides of the market covered, and the prospect of owning a long frame for half the price of the original would sell the frame very well. More money means better research testing, etc resulting in better frames. I fail to see how any of you can post back and say I'm talking crap about this, because it makes perfect sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 taller people should ride stock :(" lol, sorry, just joking. errrm, I dunno what to think, I dont particually like the frames looks, but I guess some people do, and its another frame to choose, so it cant be a bad thing. Would you really want to go over 1030 on a mod? seems pretty long (but I dont ride mod, so I might be wrong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave85 Posted June 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 STILL none of you are actually taking the time to read what ive written! I am not saying that short bikes are crap. WHAT I AM SAYING is that onza has no market for longer mod bikes, which, at the rate they sell at, would be a good move. Im not saying this from a geo, how it rides point of view, im talking about from a business point of view. If onza fling out a long copy of the python, they will have both sides of the market covered, and the prospect of owning a long frame for half the price of the original would sell the frame very well. More money means better research testing, etc resulting in better frames. I fail to see how any of you can post back and say I'm talking crap about this, because it makes perfect sense. ← If it was a pure business thing, Mike would've had the python straight off the shelf like Ads said. The version of the '04 python copy I saw was highly experimental, much more than just a copy. It didnt fare very well in testing, so it wasnt made. The world moved on before it was ready. This new frame could be in the shops next week, you dont know how long its been in testing, or how good it is, or even what its made out of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 If it was a pure business thing, Mike would've had the python straight off the shelf like Ads said. The version of the '04 python copy I saw was highly experimental, much more than just a copy. It didnt fare very well in testing, so it wasnt made. The world moved on before it was ready. This new frame could be in the shops next week, you dont know how long its been in testing, or how good it is, or even what its made out of. ← So why dont onza cover the costs of researching a new frame, and satisfy a market of people who want long frames by just releasing a rebadged frame? Like i say, it would give them time and money to do something of their own creation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trials Boy Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 That looks sweet, bet its going to be pretty popular when it comes out if its half the price of the python :(" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Why is it that the current World Champ is riding a Monty? ← Becuase short bikes a lighter. End of stroy. Haven't really read the thred, but had a skim down. Has anyone from Onza actulay said anything about this bike. Becuase there was actuly 6 prototypes, just for a laugh a while back. So it could just be one of those 'look what i can do' bikes. I think onza do need one really long bike, then all these (14 year old beginers, target market) people who think the reason they can't sidehop as high as CLS will get one and realise they still can't, but they'll feel big and hard. ^_^ But from a sales point of view it'll be a good investment. Blatent zoo copy but who cares. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Wood Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Becuase short bikes a lighter. End of stroy. ← Erm... I think that plan is very flawed. Anyways, looks really good, i don't know much about mods, other than it looks similar to that wonderfully wonderfull ZOO! that the equally wonderfully wonderful CLS rides. I think it's awesome they can put out a frame that's similar, is not ridden by CLS, and is much cheaper than the ZOO!. Out of interest, what are the differences between the ZOO! and this? Onza = the w!n (or something) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 So why dont onza cover the costs of researching a new frame, and satisfy a market of people who want long frames by just releasing a rebadged frame? Like i say, it would give them time and money to do something of their own creation ← Reputation? It works out better if they just hold fire a bit, develop the frame, then release it so they have a nicely thought out frame that is largely their own. It just makes more sense doing that, really. All of Onza's "copied" designs (e.g. T-Pro) have been thought out and aren't just straight copies from a catalogue. Again, using the T-Pro as an example - chainstay guards, integrated headset, etc. Speaking of length anyway, the T-Pro with T-Pro forks on is 1025-1030mm anyway, so that's not "short". Releasing different length versions of the same frame would drive costs up, and would therefore mean the frame would cost more. Seeing as Onza typically appeal to the budget end of the market, cost reduction is important, so doing two different frames would be counter-productive, basically. Personally, I *love* shorter bikes. They just feel a lot nicer for me, so I don't really mind having a 1000mm wb (I *do* mind the shortness of my T-Lite, but there we go :() or anything like that. I just feel they ride better. JT!, they aren't just going to be riding them because they're lighter. Between the 1040mm CLS Python and the Yao Zhi 1000mm Python, there's less than 200g weight difference (ifI remember correctly). That's about the same as having a shit/piss before you ride, isn't it... The mods they showed before were purely experimental, e.g. the full CNC'd one (which has apparently been sold, bizarrely...). This one doesn't really look like it's from the same school of thought, really. It's just the Python frame with modded geometry, so I'd say it was more likely to be produced than any of those were, but who knows... It seems Onza do "have the guts" to try and release the Ben Slinger mod, seeing as they're still developing it and trying to find ways to make the "low slung stays" idea work (replaceable chainstay protectors and so on), judging from what Mike said in that other thread. Prototyping isn't cheap, so they'll want to recoup their losses. The best way to do that is to make a frame that works, then sell it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 JT!, they aren't just going to be riding them because they're lighter. Between the 1040mm CLS Python and the Yao Zhi 1000mm Python, there's less than 200g weight difference (ifI remember correctly). That's about the same as having a shit/piss before you ride, isn't it...← The way i see it is that a longer bike is harder to pull the back end up while (for exapmle) sidehopping, as the wheel is sticking out on long stays. Where as on a shorter bike, is has short stays, so the wheel is closer and therefor easier to pull up. It's all about leverage. On the other hand having longer stays gets you off the ground higher to begin with. So when i mean lighter, i don't just mean weight wise. Even though thats what i said :( ^_^ . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minitrialer Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 am i missing something here :( that to me looks like the new t-mag ? the python copy one ? if so my mate has had it for a couple of months (Richard Coe-sponsored) sorry if it isn't i am not trying to be cocky etc. i just wondered maybe he got it really early. i have rode it it is fairly nice. I may have go the wrong end of the stick . . .don't cry if i have, only a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Nah, that's got the side plates, unlike the T-Mag. JT! - geometry means it feels lighter than it is though. Craig Lee Scott can do hella big sidehops on his long-stayed Python, and Benito Ros can do hella big sidehops on his still relatively long-stayed (for the length of the bike) XTP short. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Vox Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 I think onza are doing a really good job at the moment. :( They are bringing out well thought out, new frames. Offer a good warrenty and support on breakages. That is fair. Are trying some new things out (low chainstays on slingers bike) and using some already existing ideas (the cnc parts on the side of this particular frame). Onza may have been regarded as a 'beginners' brand but i feel this may change if the company continues to provide what trials riders need. Quality frames at quality prices with a warrenty that covers everyday wear that trials brings. I think if they carry on like this they will be one of/ if not the best trials brands in the next few years. Well done onza!! ^_^ Yes ive read the whole thread and i really cant be bothered to comment on the arguements. These are just my thoughts on this frame and onza in general. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 (edited) JT! - geometry means it feels lighter than it is though. Craig Lee Scott can do hella big sidehops on his long-stayed Python, and Benito Ros can do hella big sidehops on his still relatively long-stayed (for the length of the bike) XTP short. ← On the other hand having longer stays gets you off the ground higher to begin with. ← :( Edited June 14, 2005 by JT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 Eh? :( It's all about a balance of geometry anyway, seeing as 40ft long stays would be shit anyway. But yeah, they still don't ride short bikes because they're lighter, eithe way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burton Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 It looks like a good design....a slight copy of the Zoo! CLS un but with changes that onza seem to like- the bash plate, the internal headset. I hope they have used t-rex tubing....making it an uber strong uber rigid riding mod, just like its inspiration :( Personally the headtube puts me off the frame a little just because the bearings for them are so weak and rubbish from mine and others experiances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Booth Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 You lot take this all to seriously! At the end of the day its a frame, it might look like a python, but will it actually ride like a python?! and even if it does look like a python, Whats stopping onza to make them available, f***ing brilliant idea IMO to sell them at a price thats half the cost of the proper thing. And the lad saying 'will onza have the guts to sell them' Why wouldnt they!? they are selling the t-rex which looks very similar to another zoo! frame i can think of! Your all just overly protective of a better bike then a zoo! coming from a lesser company and your pythons being beaten by a bike thats 1/2 the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguru Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 urm, zoo? hang on but didnt they copy a certain coustellier frame? which had similar looks to the ashton? oh good its all confusing but who cares? its just a bike frame p.s looks nice and shiney lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicH_87 Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 how can another good (and probably well priced) mod frame be a bad thing? and it's not as if anyone is forcing you to buy it. shut up and ride you pansies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 urm, zoo? hang on but didnt they copy a certain coustellier frame? which had similar looks to the ashton? which was based on mototrials bikes? which was based on scramblers? which were based on early motorbikes on road? which were based on shitty pushbikes with engines? which were based on penny farthings? ← :( Evolution isn't a heinous crime, you realise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuyJames Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 All this "copying" happens everywhere. Look at all the cars on the road, all of them have doors and four wheels and look reasonably the same to a degree but Ford doesn't go round complaining about Honda for example do they? And Bmx's, to make this post bike related, they look the same and are only different through small tweaks in geometry, material and where the bloody brake lugs are! So, Trials-forum please get over this "copying" obsession, because as it happens everywhere you look things will look the same, yet because you are on this forum bitching 24/7 you have no time to go and see for yourself. Now don't bloody quote me on any of this post saying "well what about the engines in cars, they make them different and the interior blah blah blah" because that is simply being petty. *Sighs* Now, back on topic...it looks good. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trialsguru Posted June 14, 2005 Report Share Posted June 14, 2005 mark, im just trying to prove a point that if 'popular' trials companies copy a frame, no one cares. but if a company that sells cheap verisons of the same frame, that from my understanding comes from the same factory but made from 'better' materials. people believe that the drop in price means a less'er quality, and the name doesn't uphold a certain status in the trials community. then they say its crap before its even been ridden. anyone remember a few years back, a certain company called 'zoo' were in the same position, cheap copies of top end frames at a good price 'cough boa cough lynx'. then the python and pitbull come out with cls and tunni riding for them, all of a sudden theyre poplular. maybe thats what onza need, a trials celebrity, was working with akkers and the t-raptor to a certain extent whoops bit of a rant sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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