hititfaster Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 im going to fine some people locally that can teach me. ← Shame you live in North Wales, or I'd have offered to teach you. I've done all this before, so I'd like to think I know a bit about it. You're have a LOT more thinking to do before you can even start making this frame. For starters, geometry: it took Todge and I weeks to finalise the geometry for our frame. You have to sort that first before you even think about brazing. Once you have that finalised, you have to have somewhere to make the frame. At the absolute minimum you need a perfectly flat metal surface, onto which you can clamp all the bits. You can build a frame without a jig (we did) although it will make aligning all the parts harder, and you have no real solid way of making sure the tubes don't warp while you heat them. The problem is that mking a jig is hard, and the jig has to be PERFECT to e of any use - the slightest imperfaection and you might as well not bother with it at all. Right, now you have the dimensions for the frame and somewhere to make it. So you need to know how to use the equipment. I'm not going to spend too much time here because it's not the kind of thing you can explain in under several thousand words. As a very fast explanation... you have two cylinders full of gas, oxygen and acetylene. Burning either of these gasses seperately will not achieve a thing, but by mixing them at the correct ratio, you get a very hot and very accurate flame. Learning to regulate these gasses and therefore the flame is a big part of the challenge (by this point I'm assuming that you have already 'dry-asembled the frame tubes). There is something you need to check before you get any further down the line: is this equipment of your Dad's for cutting or welding? You can do both with the same two gasses by mixing them differently and using different torches. Let's assume you have the right torch. Once you have a good flame, you have to heat the metal until it goes a nice cherry red colour, at which point you can dip the end of the brazing rod in the flux (to keep air away from the joint as it forms and aid flow of the moulten rod) and then begin to feed it into the joint. The trouble is that I can't (justify spending the time to) tell you how this feels, and how to hold the rod and the torch, how much to feed in, when to stop applying the heat, the method by which you should tack all the joints first, blah, blah.... I could be here all night. What you need to do if you are determined to make a frame and do it yourself is find an engineer or a local blacksmith or someone who knows EXACTLY how to braze and be VERY nice to them. Learning the balance of mixing the gasses is a skill that you just can't explain without showing someone. If you just start twiddling knobs and experimenting with things you'll blow yourself up. Or set yourself on fire. I've seen accidents with this equipment, and it doesn't ever look pretty. If you want any advice on equipment or where to get stuff I'm fairly clued up, but explaining to you how to actually carry out the process is nigh on impossible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatsink Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Mr Tom ^ is the man who can and has :( Onzaboymark mentioned a post I had a hand in on this subject. This was in the SM area. For a while I was enthusiastically finding out about materials, where to buy them, pricing up equipment, but it all stopped when I was at the point of having to shell out £300 on a brazing set! When my enthusiasm had died down, I realised that I'd probabily quickly get bored of it and my would be left with £300 worth of no longer used equipment whilst in my shed resided a couple of bottles of gas that could blow up my entire street.... I still want Tom to teach me to braze though! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich4130 Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 (edited) I was researching mine for about 6 months, with some help from my dad I got the Headtube/BB/360 Dropouts done (he's a machinest) Then I effectivly gave up! I may well finish it off if anything ever happens to my ashton. Everything takes alot of time, it took a couple of saturday mornings to get those bits made, before we even started on a Jig. The hardesr bit design wise was the BB/chainstay area. Its hard to make on a trials frame, because the chainstays are short, meaning the wheel is close to the BB shell, so you need to make some sort of yoke, or do what we done and made a really wide BB shell that the bottom bracket sat in. Even shaping the tubes is harder than it first appears. I gave up with access to all the tools, after buying all the materials, borrowing a brazing kit (Eek, I forgot i have that... :( ) and having an engineer of a dad and a workshop to build it in! I'l get you a few snaps of all what I done/materials/tools etc! EDIT: Have a read of these, they have loads of useful stuff in. http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....=Frame+Building http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....=Frame+Building http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....=Frame+Building http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....=Frame+Building http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....=Frame+Building http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....=Frame+Building http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....=Frame+Building Edited February 7, 2005 by rich4130 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 you guys are fantastic :P i have decided on geometry, similar to t-pro. ive drawn it to scale on a board. im so appreciative of all your help, i didnt think i'd get this much response :( I will post again when i get closer to making it...... cheers Will :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Motivator Posted February 7, 2005 Report Share Posted February 7, 2005 Hey will, what ever happened to you arc welding it? :P You have a kit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hititfaster Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 I still want Tom to teach me to braze though! ← Easter is coming, Steve :P Hey will, what ever happened to you arc welding it? (Y) You have a kit! ← Want my advice? Don't even bother dusting off the ARC welder. ARC welding is very aggressive: to weld 1mm thick material (like the tube you probably have), you'd have to be using seriously thin rods - 1.6mm or even less if you can get them - which makes it difficult to control. You know the easiest thing you can do? Get the free-ads and buy a cheap gasless MIG welder. You'll be able to teach yourself how to use it waaaaaay easier than any other form of welder, and you can easily vary the current. They retail at about £100, but I got mine for £15, so start asking round (Y) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Easter is coming, Steve (Y) Want my advice? Don't even bother dusting off the ARC welder. ARC welding is very aggressive: to weld 1mm thick material (like the tube you probably have), you'd have to be using seriously thin rods - 1.6mm or even less if you can get them - which makes it difficult to control. You know the easiest thing you can do? Get the free-ads and buy a cheap gasless MIG welder. You'll be able to teach yourself how to use it waaaaaay easier than any other form of welder, and you can easily vary the current. They retail at about £100, but I got mine for £15, so start asking round :P ← yeah, ive already tried with the arc kit and its soooo hard to do :P i just keep blowing holes in the frame, as the tubes are so thin(as hit it faster said). would you think a mig welder would be easier to pick up than brazing, considering that i cant currently do either at the moment. thanks (Y) Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hititfaster Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 yeah, ive already tried with the arc kit and its soooo hard to do :D i just keep blowing holes in the frame, as the tubes are so thin(as hit it faster said). would you think a mig welder would be easier to pick up than brazing, considering that i cant currently do either at the moment. thanks :D Will ← It would DEFINATELY be easier :P With MIG welding, all you have to hold is a handle with a trigger on it. Inside the welder case is a spool of wire that is fed through a tube up to the handle automatically as you squeeze the trigger. This wire is charged, and as it comes into contact with the metal, the circuit is completed thus melting the wire (and the material you want to join) and forming the joint. Forget the misconceptions you might hear about MIG welding, it can produce a very strong weld, and as I said, it is a LOT easier to pick up. By the way, I was looking for some other stuff on Ebay and noticed THIS So I had a look at some other stuff for you, and found THESE The Clarke one (£6 something) is almost identical to the one I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 It would DEFINATELY be easier :D With MIG welding, all you have to hold is a handle with a trigger on it. Inside the welder case is a spool of wire that is fed through a tube up to the handle automatically as you squeeze the trigger. This wire is charged, and as it comes into contact with the metal, the circuit is completed thus melting the wire (and the material you want to join) and forming the joint. Forget the misconceptions you might hear about MIG welding, it can produce a very strong weld, and as I said, it is a LOT easier to pick up. By the way, I was looking for some other stuff on Ebay and noticed THIS So I had a look at some other stuff for you, and found THESE The Clarke one (£6 something) is almost identical to the one I have. ← isnt this the same way an arc welder works? also do i need flux for this system? thanks for the links too :P im going to watch the clark gasless welder, and buy it in 6 days if it doesent go through the roof :D thanks :P Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley Smith Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 only problem i have ever found with mig welding is that it isnt very neat compared to say tig welding. another problem that you may encounter id with the mig torch not being able to get into all those tight spaces, i.e. between the top tube and the downtube! any how up to you but if i was you i would 'tack' the frame up with a mig when the frames in the jig then have it professionally tig welded. have a think on those reagards ash :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich4130 Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 (edited) isnt this the same way an arc welder works? also do i need flux for this system? Similar, but the wire is fed. Gasless Migs have a flux coating on the wire, when the arc is struck its burnt and produces a gas, thus shealding the weld. Normal migs have Co2 to do the same job. EDIT: I have about half a shed full of 30mm OD (ish.. :lol:" ) 1.5mm wall mild steel tubing, perfect for abit of practise, pay the postage and I could send you a length maybe. Could be a bit much though.. Edited February 8, 2005 by rich4130 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 basically im gunna buy a mig welder no matter what happens, even if it is just to tack it together. Similar, but the wire is fed. Gasless Migs have a flux coating on the wire, when the arc is struck its burnt and produces a gas, thus shealding the weld. Normal migs have Co2 to do the same job. EDIT: I have about half a shed full of 30mm OD (ish.. :P" ) 1.5mm wall mild steel tubing, perfect for abit of practise, pay the postage and I could send you a length maybe. Could be a bit much though.. ← i already have some tubing to work with thanks :D i could be interested though if i need it for anything :P thanks for the advice again... im gonna go for a mig welder i have an eye on, i just hope it doesent go for too much deniros......... :P Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Nichols Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Hows it going so far Will? Have you got any pics of what you've done so far etc? What type of frame are you making btw? Street? UCI? Mod? etc etc Sambo :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 (edited) Hows it going so far Will? Have you got any pics of what you've done so far etc? What type of frame are you making btw? Street? UCI? Mod? etc etc Sambo :lol: ← i havent got much further with it lol, i still need to get a mig welder. i have desinged the frame geometry and im currently drawing it on a CAD system. its a mod, with geometry similar to the zoo python yao zhi and the onza t-pro. i will post when the frame is finnished on the cad. does anybody know if mig welding gives of a bright spark, i know with some forms of welding you can have a mask with no UV filtration. cheers Edited February 8, 2005 by WILL ARNOLD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich4130 Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 does anybody know if mig welding gives of a bright spark, i know with some forms of welding you can have a mask with no UV filtration. cheers ← God yea, you'll get arc eye in seconds without(Y) I think they need grade 10 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tipsy Jock Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Knowing will it's gonna be kinda streety, probably quite similar to a revell. i'm just waiting to see the mushroom cloud on the horizon that means he started welding :lol: Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 Knowing will it's gonna be kinda streety, probably quite similar to a revell. i'm just waiting to see the mushroom cloud on the horizon that means he started welding :lol: Pete ← hehe, that'll be me :D yeah, i want it to have that revel type look. anyways here is a piccy of the CAD drawing...... http://www.trials-forum.co.uk/forum/index....cmd=si&img=6171 cheers. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurtisRider Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 nice cad work there dude im not to sure about the rear end-i think you will find you will hit your ankles/feet on the rear stays-may wanna change that a little? also it would look better if it was nicely curved :P i like the idea of using the square tubing on the downtube-reminds me of a pace and looks different :D personally id run a little throat gusset on the downtube just to make sure the headtube doesnt snap off(thats 1 place id hate for my bike to snap!!) have fun :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hititfaster Posted February 8, 2005 Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 i'm just waiting to see the mushroom cloud on the horizon that means he started welding :D ← Yeah, I can't say I haven't thought that myself :P And there was some joking when I mentioned to someone that Will might consider buying some brazing stuff via Ebay, ending up with the postie going BANG as he tried to force it through the letter box :P God yea, you'll get arc eye in seconds without(Y) I think they need grade 10 ? ← Spot on. Any cheap and cheerful welding mask will do the job, you can get them for hardly anything - £10 ish I think. Note: brazing goggles will NOT do, they aren't dark enough. That welder was just the first thing I found you know... best check it's clos to you as most people wont post heavy stuff like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2005 the cad drawing is only really for the geometry side of things. it hasnt had much thought put into it to be honest, lol. yeah, i already have a welding mask but i was wondering if i should risk not wearing it for the first go :) now i know to wack it on. ta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Cox Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 just wondering. will there be enough tire clearance through the seat stays? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 just wondering. will there be enough tire clearance through the seat stays? ← i already said that the frame hasnt had much thought put into it. the chainstays are going to be round, as are the seatstays. and, yes, a tire is going to go into the frame :) Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich4130 Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I drew all mine out on paper, you might spot some obvious mistakes that could easily be missed with Cad. I just done loads of halfscale drawings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Arnold Posted February 9, 2005 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 (edited) as i said, i have already drawn it out, on a wooden board, full scale. rich, do you have any pictures of the one you made? cheers Edited February 9, 2005 by WILL ARNOLD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich4130 Posted February 9, 2005 Report Share Posted February 9, 2005 I never finished it heh. It was gonna be a 24" just like the Ashton Edd Tongue, but then they were sold off for £150 so I got one instead. It was gonna be just like the leeson 24 thats out now, (honest!) This was about a year ago though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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