Tomm Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 The end of the world could just mean the end of your life. After your life, how do you know if the world continues without you. You might be holding the whole place together :P So, with that in mind, it's exactly the same as Christianity. I expect Noz isn't too scared of the devil coming to get him. Isn't there some law in the bible that suggests that people who aren't Christian will be turned away at the pearly gates? I bet there is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 But Jihad has been declared, Yeah, by a minority of Muslim extremists. The vast majority of Muslims are peacefull people not terorists. As for so you get your facts right dont you think thats a bit rich when you're posting stuff like "Let me tell you one last fact about the Jew. The Jew killed Jesus" Facts = proven with evidence. It definately says that when Suleman comes at the end of the world, anyone who doesnt worship him will be killed. Not very nice. I'd rather have a religion that says that anyone can enter the kingdom of heaven, rather than, follow me or die! Wouldnt you? There is no such religion though. Christianity say's you have to believe in God to go to heaven doesn't it? How is that any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caleb Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 He explained one to me about a main who had raped someone- his punishment was to have a brick wall toppled on top of him by a bulldozer. Lmao !! thats how it should be and that would be a great example to all the sick twisted ugly c**ts that cant pull a lady who rape girls for fun/ sexual drive. Iagree with quite a bit of this but however it is easy to tell the racist oparts and the exaggerated bits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Nick Riviera Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 i certainly wont be voting monkey this year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 The end of the world could just mean the end of your life. After your life, how do you know if the world continues without you. You might be holding the whole place together :P So, with that in mind, it's exactly the same as Christianity. I expect Noz isn't too scared of the devil coming to get him. Isn't there some law in the bible that suggests that people who aren't Christian will be turned away at the pearly gates? I bet there is... ← But the difference is that you have no choice if you arent a Muslim, you will die and not go to heaven, Suleman WILL get you, whereas Christianity says satan can only get you if you let him. He has no power over you, only that which you give him. Its easy to get into heaven, its how close to God you will be when you get there that is the trouble... Yeah, by a minority of Muslim extremists. The vast majority of Muslims are peacefull people not terorists. As for dont you think thats a bit rich when you're posting stuff like "Let me tell you one last fact about the Jew. The Jew killed Jesus" Facts = proven with evidence. There is no such religion though. Christianity say's you have to believe in God to go to heaven doesn't it? How is that any different? ← I agree that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful - meaning they must disagree with what their religion teaches, it is Allahs will that jihad be declared, so all Muslims are involved, unless its Islamic religious leaders using religion for an excuse to kill and steal like the Christian crusades were. Jews believe that Jesus was crucified - forget fact for a minute - and they also believe in the Torah. They do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, but they do believe in the Torah which says that they will kill a man who they do not beleive to be the Messiah, they will mock him and pierce his body. Whether these are fact or not, the Jews believe both things, which proves (in their eyes) that the Torah is right because they did do that, and like the Torah said, they did not believe he was the Messiah. So they are contradicted by that, are they not? The fact that they read the whole book in their church services over the course of the year apart from Isiah 53, which says about Jesus death at the hands of the Jews, seems very fishy to me. How can they deny something written by the ministers of their own religion? The equivilent to this would be Jehovah's Witness's as a sector of Christianity. They took the Bible, and re wrote some of it, and removed Revelation 22:18-19 (I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described it this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book) which all together, doesnt quite add up. As I said before, which religion would you choose; one where your love can earn you a good place in heaven, or one where violence will guarantee you get to heaven in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 (edited) it is easy to tell the racist oparts and the exaggerated bits. ← How can you tell the exaggerated bits exactly? Have I been unconsciously typing them in bold or something? EDIT: By your logic, if you were to say, as many do and have done on this forum - that Christianty and Jesus are rubbish, you would admit to being a rascist yourself? Edited February 2, 2005 by andyroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 But the difference is that you have no choice if you arent a Muslim, you will die and not go to heaven, Suleman WILL get you, whereas Christianity says satan can only get you if you let him. He has no power over you, only that which you give him. Its easy to get into heaven, its how close to God you will be when you get there that is the trouble... I still dont see any difference between: "if you're not a Muslim you will be killed when Suleman arrives" and "If you dont beleive and worship god you will go to hell" "satan can only get you if you let him." Surely the way you stop him getting you is to believe in god and follow christianity. So this is exactly the same as sayig Suleman will get you if you dont follow Islam? I agree that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful - meaning they must disagree with what their religion teaches No, thats not what I meant. What I mean is that the Muslim religion is a peacefull one but the terrorists are abusing it and using it as an excuse to carry out acts of terrorism in the name of their god. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 But the difference is that you have no choice if you arent a Muslim, you will die and not go to heaven, Suleman WILL get you, whereas Christianity says satan can only get you if you let him. He has no power over you, only that which you give him. Its easy to get into heaven, its how close to God you will be when you get there that is the trouble... It's symbolism though isn't it. It's what you make of it, what you believe. You don't actually believe that you're going to die and float up to some place in the sky, meet God and St Paul and wander through some big white gates into heaven, do you? I agree that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful - meaning they must disagree with what their religion teaches, it is Allahs will that jihad be declared, so all Muslims are involved, unless its Islamic religious leaders using religion for an excuse to kill and steal like the Christian crusades were. It's the symbolism again, you're not really seeing what I'm saying. If you can be bothered, go back and read my last couple of posts. I'm not going to explain it again.Jews believe that Jesus was crucified - forget fact for a minute - and they also believe in the Torah. They do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, but they do believe in the Torah which says that they will kill a man who they do not beleive to be the Messiah, they will mock him and pierce his body. Whether these are fact or not, the Jews believe both things, which proves (in their eyes) that the Torah is right because they did do that, and like the Torah said, they did not believe he was the Messiah. So they are contradicted by that, are they not?I'm not going to pretend that I know about Judaism, because I really haven't got a clue. All I will say is that if the Jews believed that the Christian "Jesus" was NOT the son of God, then there is no paradox. They are still waiting for their messiah, who they will kill. But like I said, these things aren't to be take literally anyway... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 (edited) I still dont see any difference between: "if you're not a Muslim you will be killed when Suleman arrives" and "If you dont beleive and worship god you will go to hell" "satan can only get you if you let him." Surely the way you stop him getting you is to believe in god and follow christianity. So this is exactly the same as sayig Suleman will get you if you dont follow Islam? No, thats not what I meant. What I mean is that the Muslim religion is a peacefull one but the terrorists are abusing it and using it as an excuse to carry out acts of terrorism in the name of their god. ← No, actually, you dont need to believe in God and worship him to enter heaven, as i explained prior. It helps if you do to get a better place in heaven, but say theres a really nice bloke who lives in Umba-bunga land who hasnt got the slightest fig about christianity - being nice generally is the basis of christianity, he will gain a place in heaven. Being an overzealous disciple of Christ and bugging the rest of the world telling them about God with all your heart mind and soul might earn you a better place in Heaven. The way you end up in hell is that you chose to go there, by giving in to what you know is not very nice, and after youve done it, you dont feel any remorse and you want to do it again. Obviously, these temptations have to be a little bit more than stealing a sweety. And God will forgive you if you are truly sorry as well, I dont know if thats the same case with Islam, (would someone care to enlighten me?) Still I say again; why should a peaceful religion beat up those who dont attend prayer sessions? Its not the extremities of terrorists that I am talking about; Its the fact that Christians are persecuted in Muslim countries as we speak, purely for practicing Christianity. In Italy, the home of the pointless Pope, you dont hear of Muslim missionaries fearing for their lives and having to worship in secret, do you? EDIT: I really enjoy a good discussion like this - It gets the old grey muscle going like a good'un Edited February 2, 2005 by andyroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Being an overzealous disciple of Christ and bugging the rest of the world telling them about God with all your heart mind and soul might earn you a better place in Heaven.lol indeed :P Still I say again; why should a peaceful religion beat up those who dont attend prayer sessions? Its not the extremities of terrorists that I am talking about; Its the fact that Christians are persecuted in Muslim countries as we speak, purely for practicing Christianity. ← I'm sure the persecution that muslims get in Western countries is far more of a problem. That doesn't quite fit with your rather blinkered veiw on society though does it? :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 That doesn't quite fit with your rather blinkered veiw on society though does it? :P ← I dont understand what you mean :"> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Still I say again; why should a peaceful religion beat up those who dont attend prayer sessions? Its not the extremities of terrorists that I am talking about; Its the fact that Christians are persecuted in Muslim countries as we speak, purely for practicing Christianity. In Italy, the home of the pointless Pope, you dont hear of Muslim missionaries fearing for their lives and having to worship in secret, do you? EDIT: I really enjoy a good discussion like this - It gets the old grey muscle going like a good'un ← Italy is a more Modern country then some of those in the middle east though. Countries develop and grow out of things like beating people because of what they believe. Its not a purely religious thing. And I dont think you could claim Christians have never persecuted anyone. What about all the Protestant vs Catholic violence in Ireland, wernt they christians, they didn't seem too friendly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 And I dont think you could claim Christians have never persected anyone. What about all the Protestant vs Catholic violence in Ireland, wernt they christians, they didn't seem too friendly. ← How about the whole Pagan religion? Who's heard of that now? No-one, because Christians went around and killed them all. @ Andyroo: What I meant was that you're not very open minded on this. You believe what the bible tells you to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 (edited) To Jimbo Limbo: No its not friendly at all. But the words "Protestant" and "catholic" never appear in the Bible, so I'm sure it has nothing to do with that. It does, however, mention Jihad in the Qur'an, and does associate killing for Allah with it. See the difference? And Ive just been browsing through an on line Qur'an, and it refers to Muslims as Allahs slaves; thats not very nice Edited February 2, 2005 by andyroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 To Jimbo Limbo: No its not friendly at all. But the words "Protestant" and "catholic" never appear in the Bible, so I'm sure it has nothing to do with that. It does, however, mention Jihad in the Qur'an, and does associate killing for Allah with it. See the difference? And Ive just been browsing through an on line Qur'an, and it refers to Muslims as Allahs slaves; thats not very nice ← Having never read (properly) the bible or the qur'an i'm starting to feel a little out of my depth, but... as christians have to follow gods word to get close to him in heaven arn't they slaves to him? ie: you must do as I say or you wont have a good place in heaven / get in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 To Tomm: The quote on Jesus being killed by Jews is from the Torah; granted the Torah is just the Bibles old testemant. The Bible has not told me to believe that Jihad requires the killing of non believers, the Qur'an did (I just searched it just to make sure I wasnt talking babble :P ) So what have I used as an argument that comes from the Bible? Except going to heaven the Christian way, but that was relevant to defend Christianity. You've obviously heard of the Pagen religion, and so has everyone if you ask them, most of our traditions, such as holly, and yule logs (choclate logs) are pagen traditions. I did a school play on paganism when i was a kid. And again, nothing in the Bible told the christians to kill the pagens, they were just scared and stupid, if they had followed the Bible they would have been relentlessly knocking on the pagens doors just as they were about to start dinner in an effort to convert them. Whereas, the Qur'an teaches Jihad. And killing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 (edited) Maybe im getting needlessly picky, but doesnt this come down to how you percieve the word Jihad. Someone made the point earlier in this thread that it didnt mean killing people.....I think i'll have a look and edit it in. Jihad actually means fighting for Allah when there is prosecution against who is fighting (so other religions fight muslims), and it is totally forbidden to kill in the name of religion when there is peace. Usually to the western mind, jihad means 'holy war' or terrorism but that is not true at all... islam is a very peaceful religion. Jihad basically means doing ones best to preach Islam (or fighting in total self defense). Woohoo. Edited February 2, 2005 by Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Having never read (properly) the bible or the qur'an i'm starting to feel a little out of my depth, but... as christians have to follow gods word to get close to him in heaven arn't they slaves to him? ie: you must do as I say or you wont have a good place in heaven / get in. ← No, because there is no punishment, only reward. If by doing better just reduced a punishment, and doing worse increased it, you would be regarded as a slave, if your doing better increased a reward, and your doing worse decreased it, you would be a servant. The only punishment comes from yourself, which God has promised to forgive. (Just out of pure trivia, according to the Bible, the only unforgivable wrong doing is speaking bad of the holy spirit... bet you didnt know that (Y) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 (edited) JIHAD IN THE QUR'AN AND SUNNA -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Praise be to Allah swt Who has ordained Al-Jihad (the holy fighting in Allah's Cause): 1. With the heart (intentions or feelings), 2. With the hand (weapons, etc.), 3. With the tongue (speeches, etc., in the Cause of Allah) Allah has rewarded the one who performs it with lofty dwellings in the Gardens (of Paradise). It definately encourages playing with guns though Edited February 2, 2005 by andyroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 (edited) It definately encourages playing with guns though ← Weapons could be anything from a pointy stick to a missile, it dosnt encourage guns specifically. (now I am getting too picky (Y) ) No, because there is no punishment, only reward. Erm, surely hell is a punishment? according to the Bible, the only unforgivable wrong doing is speaking bad of the holy spirit... bet you didnt know that Heehe this made me chuckle, so you can be a murderer or a traffic warden and you are forgiven, but you say something nasty about the holy-spirit and you're damned forever, niiiiice. EDIT: Surely this thread is due a change-of-subject soon? I dont think we're going to argue each other round on the whole religion topic :sick: I feel like theres only the three of us that want to actually carry this on. Edited February 2, 2005 by Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 Thats fair, we just say I won the argument, er, I mean discussion, and we'll move on... Hell is a punishment brought on by yourself and your own choosing. God would not send you to hell. But it is Him that rewards you, if you see what I mean? Maybe with the Holy Spirit thing, if you say something bad about him/it, you may still go to heaven, its just that He/it wont talk to you...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 (edited) Mr. Blair wants to make a valuable impression amongst todays youth, being that they are the future of the country, and so is merely trying to show them that he can "cool" and "with it" ← Thats fair, we just say I won the argument, er, I mean discussion, and we'll move on... Hell is a punishment brought on by yourself and your own choosing. God would not send you to hell. But it is Him that rewards you, if you see what I mean? Maybe with the Holy Spirit thing, if you say something bad about him/it, you may still go to heaven, its just that He/it wont talk to you...? ← Lol , I wasnt trying to concede defeat, its just that this discussion seems to going round in circles, and it seems to be only me and you that are taking part at the moment. It seems a bit strange that god gets all the credit for rewarding you for sending you to heaven but has nothing to do with you going to hell. If hell is a punishment brought on by yourself, then isnt heaven a reward brougt on by yourself too? As it is your actions that decide where you will end up. Or maybe they're both gods responcibilty as it is him that sets out the criteria for going to heaven or hell? Hahaha, how did I manage to get that Quote in here? Might as well leave it in now for comedy value. Edited February 2, 2005 by Jimbo Limbo (Trials Chimp) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyroo Posted February 2, 2005 Report Share Posted February 2, 2005 (edited) You are right, it is Gods responsability, and like a father he can try to guide you into doing the right things, but he wont stop you, also like a father, because it would impede your own growth and take your free will away. There are cases in the Bible though, (believe them or don't its still interesting and you WILL be interested) where God has killed someone before the seriously messed up, so as they would not ruin their chances of going to heaven. You are also right in that it you choose to be rewarded in the sense that you choose to be good, but its God that dishes out the rewards, and the other guy who dishes out the pain EDIT: nice picture Edited February 2, 2005 by andyroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomm Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 You are also right in that it you choose to be rewarded in the sense that you choose to be good, but its God that dishes out the rewards, and the other guy who dishes out the pain ← Bah, it's still some all-powerful figure in the Christian world. Whether he's God or no, isn't an excuse for the bible to instill fear on everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb88 Posted February 3, 2005 Report Share Posted February 3, 2005 It definately encourages playing with guns though ← Jihad is only allowed if acted in self defense, as i explained earlier...not just randomly muslims killing other religions (Y) . Murder is one of the deepest sins in islam, and so is suicide etc. and dying/killing for your religion is strictly forbidden unless there is no other option. And about being slaves to Allah.....isnt that the same as all religions? You are born, you 'work' for your God, and you die....pretty much being a slave. Could say that about the whole world aswell...you're born into it, you work for the system, you die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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