10 Year Gap

[Luke Dunstan]

Hi all.

been away for about 10 years, got married, had a kid and the usual 30s stuff. hope all of you are doing okay. 
 
I bought an echo to get back into it, but struggling to find Echo Urban forks. In fact looking on the normal go-to trials store here in the UK it looks like there isn’t half as much choice as there used to be. 
 

can anyone fill me in on what the current landscape is?  what’s been going on in the last decade? 
 

Edit: so Tarty has new owners. Echo/Zoo is dead and Onza moved on from trials. 😢😢😢

Edited July 3 by Luke Dunstan

[craigjames]

90% of riders are on an Inspired, Crewkerz or Clean bike. Building up your own bike seems to have disappeared, seems people buy full bikes these days. Also if you aren't doing everything to front wheel, are you even riding trials?

[The Ugly American]

It appears to be ruff all over holmes. I'm in the US and had to split an order between Tarty and trials-bikes.com out of spain. Over here we only have Web Cyclery and the trials superstore, the Canadian site I used to parous closed down. And our trials forum looks more like 4chan than a community. At least where you're at people have bikes stashed in their garage. I found a few ancient trials bikes on eBay, I'm talking early to late 80's. I'm hoping I win the bid on a planet x I found. But if I do I'll immediately have to hit up Tarty or WebCyclery for parts. If you want a 24" inspired people who bought those and never used to ride cross-country mountain bikes fitted for trials at the skate park are buying those thinking that's what makes Danny Macaskill a good rider and then selling them at a discount. And Santacruz an American company makes a bike just for Danny, but doesn't sell the damn things. Or at least that's what I've run into. I would love to have bought the more reasonably priced Alias 24.1 but apparently that didn't last long enough to find one. I think I found a French webstore that had a few of those left, but I already put a bid in on the other so I have to wait. Either way the downside of living in a country with states the size of three European countries combined is having to wait a lot. Adulting is fun ain't it. Welcome back. Enjoy the privileges of proximity my guy. You are blessed.

[aener]

13 minutes ago, craigjames said:

90% of riders are on an Inspired, Crewkerz or Clean bike. Building up your own bike seems to have disappeared, seems people buy full bikes these days. Also if you aren't doing everything to front wheel, are you even riding trials?

That's the most disappointingly accurate summary of trials I've seen in a while

[Ross McArthur]

The other 10% are retro hoarders.

[The Ugly American]

18 hours ago, Ross McArthur said:

The other 10% are retro hoarders.

The thought of how many wonderful trials frames and forks have made it into a scrap pile gives me night terrors. I wish I'd horded all of mine as well. That's what I get for not being afraid of the kung flu. They just look so lonely when they're not being ridden. Do you think some of these trials companies could get a subsidy since they technically died of Covid? 😆

[Swoofty]

On 7/4/2024 at 1:41 AM, craigjames said:

90% of riders are on an Inspired, Crewkerz or Clean bike.

I ride 2 Czars, an Ozonys and, well ok, 1 crewkerz.

And i always build 'em from the frame up.

Alias was a really good alternative to the other brands. They are missed.

[craigjames]

13 hours ago, Swoofty said:

I ride 2 Czars, an Ozonys and, well ok, 1 crewkerz.

And i always build 'em from the frame up.

Alias was a really good alternative to the other brands. They are missed.

So you're of the 10% exception to what i said. 

I mean i'm looking for a new 20" frame, unless I want a Clean or a Jitsie there isn't much other choice right now. Hopefully that changes and some new options come out soon.

[Swoofty]

5 hours ago, craigjames said:

I mean i'm looking for a new 20" frame, unless I want a Clean or a Jitsie there isn't much other choice right now. Hopefully that changes and some new options come out soon.

The new Ozonys Curve 20" is shipping again now and TMS has a 20" as well. I just ordered myself a new Ozonys 20" frame last month. Hopefully I won't be wrong for not ordering a Jealousy. 😂

[La Bourde]

I think you already know that Ozonys belongs to Crewkerz.

There are no so many actors currently and I think it won't get any better sadly due to the lack of interest in trials currently.😔

So there is nothing wrong to support even the biggest brands, they also need support.

 

[DYAKOV]

21 hours ago, craigjames said:

So you're of the 10% exception to what i said. 

I mean i'm looking for a new 20" frame, unless I want a Clean or a Jitsie there isn't much other choice right now. Hopefully that changes and some new options come out soon.

We should thank Brexit for this…

I mean, you’re right in saying that there isn’t as decent variety as there was say 10 years ago but off the top of my head the main brands currently are: Crewkerz, Clean, Ozonys, Comas, Breeth, Maestro, Jitsie, TMS + Campmajo in Spain and I’m sure that there will be other local niche brands in China that we don’t even know about e.g. Lykke (briefly)… It’s just that us in the UK are only getting crewkerz, jitsie and clean in stock.

The last few bikes/frames I’ve bought have mostly been shipped from Europe: Clean X2 frame from Hungary, Comas full bike from Sweden I think, Maestro frame from Germany, Clean X1 full bike from France…. If you know you want it, you need to be prepared to spend the money, otherwise there are plenty of jitsies on the second hand market here in the UK.

[Canardweb]

13 minutes ago, DYAKOV said:

We should thank Brexit for this…

I mean, you’re right in saying that there isn’t as decent variety as there was say 10 years ago but off the top of my head the main brands currently are: Crewkerz, Clean, Ozonys, Comas, Breeth, Maestro, Jitsie, TMS + Campmajo in Spain and I’m sure that there will be other local niche brands in China that we don’t even know about e.g. Lykke (briefly)… It’s just that us in the UK are only getting crewkerz, jitsie and clean in stock.

The last few bikes/frames I’ve bought have mostly been shipped from Europe: Clean X2 frame from Hungary, Comas full bike from Sweden I think, Maestro frame from Germany, Clean X1 full bike from France…. If you know you want it, you need to be prepared to spend the money, otherwise there are plenty of jitsies on the second hand market here in the UK.

Honestly here in France we don't have MUCH more bikes to choose from... Trials is less attractive than it has ever been nowadays thanks to hook up moves and front wheel moves that just make it very boring and repetitive to watch...

[DYAKOV]

13 hours ago, La Bourde said:

I think you already know that Ozonys belongs to Crewkerz.

There are no so many actors currently and I think it won't get any better sadly due to the lack of interest in trials currently.😔

So there is nothing wrong to support even the biggest brands, they also need support.

 

I don’t think that there has ever been a great amount of interest in trials anyway… but I agree with you that big brands need support, it’s what makes them “big”. And being big means that they can persevere through economic crises whereas smaller brands just seize existing. So, if there weren’t big brands like crewkerz, jitsie, clean in the past few years, I think that trials would slowly die off by the time the last of the old stock second hand bikes in use snapped and there were no replacements on the market. In those terms the big brands are keeping it alive but I feel like the price point doesn’t let the sport grow. Imagine a world where you could either buy a Ferrari or not have a car at all, that’s the situation we’re in. Big brands need to optimise and find ways to make their products more accessible because it’s only people who are already into trials that are happy to spend the money. Quite frankly, if I had no clue about trials and my kid came home one day and said “Dad, can I have £2.5k for a bike?” I’d tell him to get lost…

[DYAKOV]

25 minutes ago, Canardweb said:

Honestly here in France we don't have MUCH more bikes to choose from... Trials is less attractive than it has ever been nowadays thanks to hook up moves and front wheel moves that just make it very boring and repetitive to watch...

I don’t think it’s much to do with the style of riding… Back to my point from the last comment I made - it’s just not an accessible sport, purely from a financial point of view but also in terms of “marketing” and promoting the sport. Trials organisers have a responsibility to share in that matter. Trials has evolved into an almost fully comp/natural riding sport up in the mountains and away from people. If you bring trials back to the streets like the tgs era was and what the shindig guys were doing last year with their regular street rides/vlogs, then you make bikes cheaper to buy, I’m sure that would attract lots of new people into the sport. Watch Charlie Rolls’ London video, plenty of hooks and moves to front in an urban setting - looks pretty cool to me! If you think about it, street trials is definitely more popular than pure trials. Why is that? I don’t think that the top pure trials riders are any less skilled or less exciting to watch than Danny Macaskill, each in their own discipline. It’s just that one rides in the city and the others jump over twigs up in the mountains.

[Canardweb]

8 hours ago, DYAKOV said:

I don’t think it’s much to do with the style of riding… Back to my point from the last comment I made - it’s just not an accessible sport, purely from a financial point of view but also in terms of “marketing” and promoting the sport. Trials organisers have a responsibility to share in that matter. Trials has evolved into an almost fully comp/natural riding sport up in the mountains and away from people. If you bring trials back to the streets like the tgs era was and what the shindig guys were doing last year with their regular street rides/vlogs, then you make bikes cheaper to buy, I’m sure that would attract lots of new people into the sport. Watch Charlie Rolls’ London video, plenty of hooks and moves to front in an urban setting - looks pretty cool to me! If you think about it, street trials is definitely more popular than pure trials. Why is that? I don’t think that the top pure trials riders are any less skilled or less exciting to watch than Danny Macaskill, each in their own discipline. It’s just that one rides in the city and the others jump over twigs up in the mountains.

You make a very good point there. Also there has never been so many dedicated trials "training" grounds so that makes trials even more exclusive! You wouldn't believe if I told you I live in the french Alps, there are tons of natural stuff to be ridden but no one in 3 trials club one hour each from the other knows of any places! Because the training grounds they have cover all the needs for competitions. Is it me or are there less shows than there used to be? I was riding at one today and it was years since I had done my last one... That is also a great advertisement for our sport!

But I will keep saying it: modern trials and modern techniques make trials as boring as it ever was. Once you have seen one hook up move and one front wheel move you have basically seen the rest of the competition. The UCI has tried so many things to make the sport media friendly than comp riders don't ride lines in comps anymore. They basically go up one obstacle, go down, and go up again. I know trials has always been weird to watch for people who know nothing about it but I don't think comps have ever been less attractive than it is now.

Edited July 7 by Canardweb

[Canardweb]

8 hours ago, DYAKOV said:

I don’t think that there has ever been a great amount of interest in trials anyway… but I agree with you that big brands need support, it’s what makes them “big”. And being big means that they can persevere through economic crises whereas smaller brands just seize existing. So, if there weren’t big brands like crewkerz, jitsie, clean in the past few years, I think that trials would slowly die off by the time the last of the old stock second hand bikes in use snapped and there were no replacements on the market. In those terms the big brands are keeping it alive but I feel like the price point doesn’t let the sport grow. Imagine a world where you could either buy a Ferrari or not have a car at all, that’s the situation we’re in. Big brands need to optimise and find ways to make their products more accessible because it’s only people who are already into trials that are happy to spend the money. Quite frankly, if I had no clue about trials and my kid came home one day and said “Dad, can I have £2.5k for a bike?” I’d tell him to get lost…

That is also very true, even the entry level bikes from Crewkerz or Clean are a lot of money. And that is a shame as it's clearly something putting off any starter or beginner's parents. Also it's funny you call them big brands or that you compare them to Ferrari as for example Christian doesn't live from selling Crewkerz bikes and he has to continue DJing to be able to live! I find this sad...

[Luke Dunstan]

On 7/4/2024 at 9:44 AM, The Ugly American said:

It appears to be ruff all over holmes. I'm in the US and had to split an order between Tarty and trials-bikes.com out of spain. Over here we only have Web Cyclery and the trials superstore, the Canadian site I used to parous closed down. And our trials forum looks more like 4chan than a community. At least where you're at people have bikes stashed in their garage. I found a few ancient trials bikes on eBay, I'm talking early to late 80's. I'm hoping I win the bid on a planet x I found. But if I do I'll immediately have to hit up Tarty or WebCyclery for parts. If you want a 24" inspired people who bought those and never used to ride cross-country mountain bikes fitted for trials at the skate park are buying those thinking that's what makes Danny Macaskill a good rider and then selling them at a discount. And Santacruz an American company makes a bike just for Danny, but doesn't sell the damn things. Or at least that's what I've run into. I would love to have bought the more reasonably priced Alias 24.1 but apparently that didn't last long enough to find one. I think I found a French webstore that had a few of those left, but I already put a bid in on the other so I have to wait. Either way the downside of living in a country with states the size of three European countries combined is having to wait a lot. Adulting is fun ain't it. Welcome back. Enjoy the privileges of proximity my guy. You are blessed.

Hey man, sorry for the late reply to this. 
 

so much has changed in 10 years. Deng going under is like a gut punch. As even though the bikes were expensive the market was pretty full of second hand parts making bike builds easy. Not so much now.

ive set alerts up on eBay for anything echo/zoo related, so now it’s just a waiting game, kind of like fishing 🤔

[La Bourde]

The trials bikes and parts are expensive, that is right. But as Canardweb wrote, even at those prices it is difficult to make a living from it.

On the other side, even an entry model is now working really well, I was surprised how good the Crewkerz freed rode. It is maybe 1kg heavier than a Jealously, but it is half the price.

Modern parts from serious brands (trialtech, inspired, waw, tms, bonz, etc) are now quite good and reliable too,not like 15 years ago.

In addition, used bikes are not so expensive and even a ten years old bike is pretty close to a modern bike (compare an Atomz Quark II to a Jitsie for example).

Here in Germany, the used market is full of street/trial bikes.

And as mentioned many times by Ali C, Super rider or others, there is no need of a dedicated trial bikes for a beginner.

Clubs have often old trial bikes, like 10-20 years old Monty. And that is good enough.

 

Finally, compared to mountain bikes, 3k for a bike is not much. That is the price of a frameset sometimes. For the price of an entry level trials bike, you won't find a correct mountain bike.

I think the inflation was a big issue the last years and that is why the modern bikes feel so expensive: our wages did not increase that much sadly. 

 

 

 

[cwtrials]

Agreed with above.

The entry echos of ten years ago came with tires, brakes, and brake pads that were pretty much useless, I'd buy a brand new bike and drop $400-$500 immediately. And they wouldn't last very long; the wheels were trash, and other parts scary to ride hard.  The new entry bikes are actually solid and good out of the box.   The biggest problem now is supply, it's really hard to get just about anything these days.

Just did an inflation calculator, $1000 USD in 2014 is $1343 now, so 34.3% inflation. That combined with the newer entry bikes being a lot more solid, things seem spot on price wise 

As nostalgic as I am of the older bikes, I don't miss how flimsy and poorly made they seemed compares to the newer stuff. I used to buy a bike every year, now my bikes last until I get bored.

However, the extensive supply is sorely missed. I built a bike from scratch two years ago and had to make six orders from 3 countries to get all the parts.

 

Edited July 14 by cwtrials

[The Ugly American]

18 hours ago, cwtrials said:

I built a bike from scratch two years ago and had to make six orders from 3 countries to get all the parts.

 

... And two years ago there were still a few more vendors. I just tried ordering parts from Bikecici last night only to find out that for some reason... they'll sell parts to anyone but Americans. Maybe I could mobilize some "fast and furious" type weapons pipeline for smuggling trials parts into the country. For now, I have to hope I can work something out through Tarty Bikes to get hold of a stem that's not completely ridiculous or made for a comfort bike. 😖🤬😢

[The Ugly American]

👍

Edited August 12 by The Ugly American
Community disinterest

[Canardweb]

On 7/14/2024 at 1:41 PM, La Bourde said:

The trials bikes and parts are expensive, that is right. But as Canardweb wrote, even at those prices it is difficult to make a living from it.

On the other side, even an entry model is now working really well, I was surprised how good the Crewkerz freed rode. It is maybe 1kg heavier than a Jealously, but it is half the price.

Modern parts from serious brands (trialtech, inspired, waw, tms, bonz, etc) are now quite good and reliable too,not like 15 years ago.

In addition, used bikes are not so expensive and even a ten years old bike is pretty close to a modern bike (compare an Atomz Quark II to a Jitsie for example).

Here in Germany, the used market is full of street/trial bikes.

And as mentioned many times by Ali C, Super rider or others, there is no need of a dedicated trial bikes for a beginner.

Clubs have often old trial bikes, like 10-20 years old Monty. And that is good enough.

 

Finally, compared to mountain bikes, 3k for a bike is not much. That is the price of a frameset sometimes. For the price of an entry level trials bike, you won't find a correct mountain bike.

I think the inflation was a big issue the last years and that is why the modern bikes feel so expensive: our wages did not increase that much sadly. 

 

 

 

I must add that even MTB are pretty cheap compared to road bikes. They have no suspension, yet they are the F1 of bikes. Popular bike category they said!