basstrials Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 Hello there,i was offered an Echo bike in good condition but i am not familiar with geometry etc. on this one.As a man who never ride this kind of bike ( i really want to try to learn some moves on stock one) i just wondering would it be good choice for beginner?The rear brake does not have brake booster(has Magura HS33) which is good or bad thing?Also previous owner run long stem but i am not very tall (165cm.),so what stem do i need,if i have to change it(i think i have to)? P.S.The attached pictures shows the bike(the owner did send them to me). Any advice and help would be appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Bourde Posted June 1 Report Share Posted June 1 Hi, I guess it is an Echo pure MKII. I found following geometry data: - Wheelbase: 1085mm - Chainstays: 380mm - BB Height: +55mm - Head Angle: 72° - Reach: 655mm - Frame Spacing: 135mm Ali C. recommends to use a brake booster with the frame (it seems to be the mk1, that hat strain gauge tubes afaik) The stem looks really long... I think it is a good bike to start riding stock. Quite modern geometry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted June 2 Author Report Share Posted June 2 (edited) Thank you,La Bourde I also thought that might be a Pure one but did not know what MK is.The stem definitely would be changed but i do not know what size might be and that is problem.I hope so someone here would make a suggestion about.The rear brake is HS33 on smooth rim and i have never ride Magura before so i do not know what to expect.Some people says that does not hold like vee's but have more bites.Would see.I am not sure about this Kenda tyre on the back is good or not.Never ride Kenda. If you have some thoughts to share about parts,please do it.Thank you for your time. Edited June 2 by basstrials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Bourde Posted June 2 Report Share Posted June 2 I personally don't like the Kenda K Rad at all. I would rather ride a Maxxis Holy Roller. I had a few Kenda tyres (in XC, 4X, Dirt) and even on a street/trial, I did not like them. Too narrow, not so grippy. The small block eight was OK though. Regarding the stem, I will go for a shorter one for sure. The stem on this bike looks like a 20" stem, around 160mm long or even more. I guess you can first try a 130mm long stem with some rise or even less if you want to tilt your bar forward (but there are not so many options around 100mm/110mm) According to me, Magura can hold very well if the whole system is not to stiff. Else, a liminal release of the lever affects the hold. If the rims are smooth but you have dedicated brakepads, you should be good, as long as the rims stay dry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted June 6 Author Report Share Posted June 6 (edited) Yeah,La Bourde,these Kenda's are so-so,i am going to change them.Bike is in good condition but the stem is quite long 165/25.I have ordered 145/25 which is closer to original one (which is 150/30) to see how it is.I also have one 120/20 so have to try which one is better for me (i am 165cm. tall).Frame is long , wheelbase is 1080 so i guess bunnyhoping would be very hard.I am not liking handlebar so i think to chage it but i do not know what back and sweep angles are.Any suggestion for brand and model?The frame has noticeable flex around rear brake mounts so i have ordered Echo two bolts booster.The brakes are Echo TR,i never have such ones so i do not know what to expect. La Bourde,any suggestion about the handlebar? Thank you. Edited June 8 by basstrials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Bourde Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 You can forget to bunny up that bike. It is a comp bike and even if its possinle a pedal hop is much less effort. Even with a 120x20 and a riser bar, that won't be easy...But I recommend a bar with riser in combination with the shorter stem, so that you can adjust how far and high your hands are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted June 6 Author Report Share Posted June 6 True.I have other bikes for bunnyhops,this ones would be best option to learn pedal up and so on.Do you mean shorter stem like 120mm. or longer? Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Bourde Posted June 6 Report Share Posted June 6 Try with 120mm first. Having a bar far ahead from the front axle helps a lot for some comp trial specific moves, but I don't know if your riding is based on them or not. As I started comp trials back a few years ago, I could only execute a few front moves. A longer stem and a bar tilt forward was more of disadvantage back then. But now I can do more front move and I see more the benefit of a bar far ahead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted June 29 Author Report Share Posted June 29 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Bourde Posted June 29 Report Share Posted June 29 Love those Echos. Simple straight clean lines, with nice color accents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted June 29 Author Report Share Posted June 29 (edited) Yes,they looks nice.I really would love to have one Zoo as well but it is not possible.Who knows,maybe Echo will start make them again. La Bourde,i put 145/30 stem and now feel the bike more naturally somehow, still have pressure on my palms but it is little and i am jot that stretched so much.Despite this i would like to try 125mm one.I did try to lift front end like for the bunnyhop (just for the record 😀) but it is weights a ton,so i have to chnge my technique and use pedals more.This Jitsie handlebar is nice one but the Echo one that was on bike initially is good also,so i would swap them up to see wgich one is more suitable.So about stem length,i know it is strongly individual but what is the effect ot tve length of the stem when doing backhops?Which one is better for the hand positioning?Or maybe would affect front moves,like front pivot,endo etc. more? And La Bourde,once more,when i try to make backhop should i have to start make hops immediately or when i loose balance point?I will make video of myself trying some moves to get corrected. Have a nice time. Edited June 29 by basstrials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Bourde Posted June 30 Report Share Posted June 30 Basically the longer and the lower the stem, the easier and less effort one required to stay on the back wheel. But lifting the front wheel is more difficult then. Even with pedaling it can get tricky to stay precise. For a beginner, I think it makes more send to ride a shorter stem first. A longer lower stem put more load on the front wheel. It can be nicer on some moves, if you have already the mobility required. E.g. pivot on the front wheel, up to front, etc. can become easier. Regarding backhops: can you already pedal kick? You have to start to hop as soon as you loose balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted June 30 Author Report Share Posted June 30 (edited) I try learn backhop using quarter strock of my leading foot from trackstand(both directions on the front wheel )to lift front wheel but i can not feel the balance point, successful a few times but most of time not.Usually i falling forward and sometimes to left -lol.I can not do it from rocking.Maybe i did not ask my question rightly,i should try to hop after reaching balance point or do i started before this? Have to make video of myself these days,could be easier. Thank you for your help. Edited June 30 by basstrials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DYAKOV Posted July 21 Report Share Posted July 21 On 7/1/2024 at 12:46 AM, basstrials said: I try learn backhop using quarter strock of my leading foot from trackstand(both directions on the front wheel )to lift front wheel but i can not feel the balance point, successful a few times but most of time not.Usually i falling forward and sometimes to left -lol.I can not do it from rocking.Maybe i did not ask my question rightly,i should try to hop after reaching balance point or do i started before this? Have to make video of myself these days,could be easier. Thank you for your help. Hey buddy, I would suggest you break the whole backhop movement in 2 parts: 1) Get yourself close to a curb with maybe 20-25cm/10” space between the curb and your front wheel, the distance would depend on the height of the curb but you can see what’s appropriate just so you’re close enough and your front wheel won’t catch the curb on the way up. As you’re in a comfortable track stand/rocking position with your good foot forward turn the pedals quarter of a turn backwards and then press on the pedals with your good foot forward while pulling on the handlebars to help lift your front wheel and place it on top of the curb. You’ve done that many times before while riding your commuter bike but the idea is to do it while the bike is not moving, so your brain can remember exactly how much of pedal stroke is needed to lift the front wheel. Practice that until you’re feeling very comfortable with lifting the front wheel from a still position, you can also gradually increase the height of the curb to a low bench or something. 2) Second part of the move would be the back hop itself. For this part I’d say don’t even bother using your pedals. As you’re in a comfortable trackstand/rocking position lock the rear brake and lean your whole body low and backwards until the bike lifts up on back wheel. Imagine there is something stuck in the ground and you’re trying to yank it out - throw your ass low, pressure on feet, pull with stretched arms (this is what you’ll be doing for bunny hops as well). You’ll be able to lift the bike on a back wheel but you need to be ready to loop out and jump off the pedals. The whole time your rear brake should be locked. The more you do it, the more your brain will be able to process the move and the feeling of where the balance point is. When you reach that balance point you start hopping. Now that you’ve mastered both moves you can bring them together - good comfortable trackstand/rocking position > quarter pedal stroke to help you lift the front wheel > pressure on your feet, ass low and arms stretched > hopping on back wheel. Everything will be very exaggerated at first and will look bad but the more you do it, the more you will fine tune and learn what the minimum amount of pedal stroke/body movement is needed to get there. Hope that helps, also other riders feel free to correct me if I’m giving any bad tips? Cheers, Nas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DYAKOV Posted July 21 Report Share Posted July 21 Just another thought, you can find a higher wall/bench where you can put your front wheel on, so the bike is stable on 2 wheels but almost in a vertical position, so then it’ll take a lot less effort and just a light tilt backwards to get it on back wheel. Lean backwards slightly and try to narrow down that balance point. In any case, if you feel like looping out you stand taller on the bike and it will fall back forwards with the front wheel back on the wall, try not to let it loop out. I suppose that would be similar if you were to learn a hand stand against a wall. And to answer your question - the correction hop is done so you can “default” yourself back to that balance point that’s stuck in your brain. So you start doing them when you’ve already reached that point, not too soon, not too late. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted July 21 Author Report Share Posted July 21 (edited) Thank you,Dyakov.I barely practice these days because it is too hot,almost everyday is 42 degrees.Very awful time for practicing trial.I hope so during next following days temperature to get lower so....I did try the method you did mention,the one with rocking back from endo but for some reason my leading foot get back (ratchet back)and trow me off balance to the way before i reaching balance point.Easier way to me to lift front wheel is from trackstand ratcheting my leading foot back but most of the time i just past behind the balance point and just fall backwards in safest way of course.I can't feel where the balance point is yet,so someone have to tell me how my posture is and so on.I hope so these days to make video of myself doing some techniques and get some help from you. Thank you for you help BTW. Edited July 21 by basstrials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted July 21 Author Report Share Posted July 21 (edited) video-d8f91f8af6d5ad93358b6de5d252652c-V.mp4 Edited July 21 by basstrials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted July 21 Author Report Share Posted July 21 Pivot attempted video-5d4abdb127a369f1ad490ef0fa390cb3-V.mp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted July 21 Author Report Share Posted July 21 video-5e86444c95ddc5a229f5ca26774bcec8-V.mp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted July 21 Author Report Share Posted July 21 Unfortunately i was not able to do some video of me lifting front wheel because i was experienced firts chain snap. I was stupid enough to attach half link on my chain but lesson learned,never again. Thanks God nothing serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 That's a quick link, not a half link. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 That's right!My mistake! BTW,what stem you did ride with your Echo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted September 11 Report Share Posted September 11 A TrialTech with 130mm length and 25degree rise I think it is, with 5mm of stem spacer underneath and a set of what is essentially TrialTech "highrise" bars but are labelled up as Inspired bars. That's with a set of TrialTech sport lite forks, I mention this as the rake and height from front axle to crown makes a difference to the set up of my bar and stem...Just to throw another curve ball 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basstrials Posted September 11 Author Report Share Posted September 11 I did put Echo 135/25 instead of 150/30.It is helps me to keep doing trackstand very easy.With the longer one the bike was too "roomy and big" for me.Anyway.I did watch some video of yours that is why asking. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted September 12 Report Share Posted September 12 (edited) On 6/29/2024 at 11:28 PM, basstrials said: Yes,they looks nice.I really would love to have one Zoo as well but it is not possible.Who knows,maybe Echo will start make them again. I was going to comment on this part saying it'll never happen. Turns out Tarty now have a batch of the echo frames back in stock! *starts chewing hat slowly* Edited September 12 by Ross McArthur 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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