Hope V2 caliper vs Trial Zone

[LEON]

Anyone ever used one for trials? The pistons are massive compared to a Trial Zone, and I read a lot of mountain bikers saying they're overkill.

 



 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by LEON

[Daan]

Pistons are the same size, just the bore cap is massive.

[LEON]

Nice, so are they pretty similar? Any reasons the Trial Zone is better for trials other than pad choice?

Edited November 12, 2022 by LEON

[Daan]

Yeah, quite similar. Trialzone caliper is based on the old V2. Just no top loading pads on the TZ, so theoretically marginally stiffer. TZ has alu and magnetic pistons too instead of the V2's phenolic with a spring between the pads. Theoretically again slightly smoother performance. I doubt you'll feel any difference between the two when mated to the same lever.

However, the Moto V2 and Tech V2 levers have a larger MC piston diameter than the both the Tech3 and Tech4 levers, so in stock form, any V2 brake is weaker than the current and previous TZ brakes.

If you're interested, I made this tool that compares theoretical power of a few brakes, based on solely hydraulic and mechanical leverage. Not super accurate, bit gives a good idea. The Tech Evo V2 in there too (you can enable it in the sidebar): https://brakes.ddzyne.nl/

Edited November 13, 2022 by Daan

[LEON]

Nice one, cheers! Yeah I'll have a read of that in a bit. The Bore cap does look unnecessarily big. It was a full Tech lever rear brake with braided hose for £50, can't complain, I did havean X2 to try but heard it's basically the weakest one.

 

[DYAKOV]

On that note, is there any major difference between the tech 3 lever and the old trial zone lever? I’ve noticed that Benito Ros is still using a trial zone lever and I was wondering if that’s better suited for trials as opposed to the tech 3 which has been designed to be compatible with all types of callipers?

I guess that the tech 3 has more options for modulation with the reach and biting point bolts. It’s also chunkier, so I assume that it has a bigger reservoir and a bigger piston, does that mean it’s more powerful as well? The blade seems shorter than the one on the trial zone lever.

I don’t know any of the specifics and these are my observations, I might be wrong. I’m just asking cos I’ve been toying with the idea of building a front brake using the old trial zone lever and the new trial zone calliper but I don’t want to spend the money to only find out it doesn’t work.

[Daan]

Don't have the Trial Zone lever anymore unfortunately, but it was basically a Hope Race lever with a slightly longer lever blade. Now I don't know if the Race lever has the 10 mm MC diameter of the T3, or the 11.5 mm diameter of the Tech Evo, or something in between? If it's 11.5, then the mechanical advantage gained by the slightly longer lever blade probably won't make up the difference lost by the lower hydraulic leverage. If it's 10 mm, then it's probably slightly more powerful than the T3 due to the higher mechanical leverage.

If you have an original Race/TZ lever, do measure it up for the sake of science What we'd need is the MC diameter, and for a rough indication of mechanical leverage, the distance between middle of the pressing finger to the pivot point, and the distance between pivot point and cam.

As for function: they both will work fine on any Hope caliper. The differences other than leverage with the T3, is that the TZ lever rotates on a crappy bushing that sees a lot of forces, and wears out pretty fast (I actually wore out not only the bushing, but the lever blade as well that way). The T3 is a lot more durable. However, the TZ/Race lever is lighter, so I reckon that's why some guys might run it. If you don't have the TZ lever already, I would personally only get it if it's very cheap. TZ/V2 calipers have always had 25 mm pistons, so powerwise on the caliper end, old and new is all the same.

[Mark W]

1 hour ago, DYAKOV said:

Benito Ros is still using a trial zone lever...

Benito is the ultimate weight weenie. He goes above and beyond to make his bike light - the Trial Zone lever is lighter, so I expect that's why he uses it.

The levers are all broadly speaking interchangeable so you could use whatever you wanted, but the strength, feel and extra adjustment on the Tech 3 would make me go for that over the Trial Zone every time.

[DYAKOV]

1 hour ago, Mark W said:

Benito is the ultimate weight weenie. He goes above and beyond to make his bike light - the Trial Zone lever is lighter, so I expect that's why he uses it.

The levers are all broadly speaking interchangeable so you could use whatever you wanted, but the strength, feel and extra adjustment on the Tech 3 would make me go for that over the Trial Zone every time.

I’ve got a tech 3 trial zone on the rear and I find it slightly spongy compared to magura brakes I’ve tried on friends’ bikes. I’ve tried tech 3 levers on other bikes and they all seem to be spongy, so it’s not a matter of bleeding or pads alignment. I was wondering if the trial zone levers which have a simpler design would feel better but I guess I’ll be looking for another tech 3 lever based on everyone’s feedback.

Thanks,

Nas

[LEON]

My Tech 3 E4 front is absolutely Rock solid, the Tech 3 rear on Trial Zone Caliper on the same bike is a bit soft by comparison. Every Hope brake I bleed I always take the reservoir cap off at least twice, a few days after bleeding it to pump every last bit of air out of it, it does make a difference.

I can see my TZ rear Caliper flex when I pull the lever, the longer, lower E4 doesn't do this.

Also, I had a Trial Zone lever very recently, didn't like it, felt very flimsy and had that stupid creak you get on the lower end and older Hope levers. Tech 3 are better in every way except weight.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by LEON

[LEON]

That chart is really cool too, never knew any of that!

 

 

[Mark W]

16 hours ago, LEON said:

I can see my TZ rear Caliper flex when I pull the lever, the longer, lower E4 doesn't do this.

Part of it is that the Trial Zone has a reasonable chunk more power so it will have more flex in comparison regardless of the caliper architecture. That said, to reduce weight they reduced the size of the fin that links the two sides of the caliper, so you have more flex as a result of that too. Not the ideal combo for lever feel...

This interview with one of Hope's engineers is worth a listen: https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/hope-on-their-new-tech-4-brakes-sweating-the-details-ep-122

It's principally about the Tech 4 brakes, and in it they mention about the Tech 4 having a spongier lever feel 'in the car park' due to the extra power it has, but believing that it was less noticeable on the trail as you never pull the brakes when you're actually riding compared to standing over your bike. I think there's an element of truth to that for trials too. Obviously there are higher peak loads for trials than there are MTB, but even so I think flex is often less noticeable in use than it seems when you're just standing there. I'm definitely more of a fan of a solid feeling brake for riding, but there is generally going to be a trade off between feel and power unfortunately.

Some are better than others though, and I do agree with you about the Trial Zone lever feeling a bit wafty. Also not a fan of the creak either, which I assume is brass barrel/lever blade/pushrod related?

[LEON]

4 hours ago, Mark W said:

Part of it is that the Trial Zone has a reasonable chunk more power so it will have more flex in comparison regardless of the caliper architecture. That said, to reduce weight they reduced the size of the fin that links the two sides of the caliper, so you have more flex as a result of that too. Not the ideal combo for lever feel...

This interview with one of Hope's engineers is worth a listen: https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/hope-on-their-new-tech-4-brakes-sweating-the-details-ep-122

It's principally about the Tech 4 brakes, and in it they mention about the Tech 4 having a spongier lever feel 'in the car park' due to the extra power it has, but believing that it was less noticeable on the trail as you never pull the brakes when you're actually riding compared to standing over your bike. I think there's an element of truth to that for trials too. Obviously there are higher peak loads for trials than there are MTB, but even so I think flex is often less noticeable in use than it seems when you're just standing there. I'm definitely more of a fan of a solid feeling brake for riding, but there is generally going to be a trade off between feel and power unfortunately.

Some are better than others though, and I do agree with you about the Trial Zone lever feeling a bit wafty. Also not a fan of the creak either, which I assume is brass barrel/lever blade/pushrod related?

I'm definitely a fan of heavier, stiffer calipers if that's a big contributing factor to flex. I love the feel of Shimanos, but there are several other factors I don't love which means they're not an option.

Listening to the podcast now, pretty interesting yeah, I'm guessing master cyliner pistons can't go much smaller than the new 9.5mm until they start to bend/flex? 

Also we're probably all using Jitsie/TT pads which I'm guessing are softer than mtb focused compounds. I recently upgraded to full Goodridge braided hoses on both bikes and I did notice a slight increase in stiffness, on HS33s I actually found the opposite, plastic hoses always felt stiffer to me.

With the TZ lever, and also old Tech and mini levers I've lubed the pushrods, brass barrel, every contact point around there and I got the creak to temporarily go but it never lasted long. I'm pretty ocd for greasing things and making them smooth and quiet but I gave up there, seems like a design issue or too many moving parts and contact points, this TZ lever was 9/10 condition too. I have four Tech 3 levers of varying ages and they're all silent.

 

 

[LEON]

Might also be worth noting I've never had a Hope brake with even movement from each piston, there's always a lazy one. Shimano are the opposite, I can line the caliper up by eye, perfect pad spacing, bolt it up and it's perfect. 

[Daan]

1 hour ago, LEON said:

I'm definitely a fan of heavier, stiffer calipers if that's a big contributing factor to flex. I love the feel of Shimanos, but there are several other factors I don't love which means they're not an option.

Listening to the podcast now, pretty interesting yeah, I'm guessing master cyliner pistons can't go much smaller than the new 9.5mm until they start to bend/flex?

All calipers flex quite a bit of you look at them closely, even big ones like the Hayes Dominion, Magura MT5-7, Hope V4. Or maybe especially big ones, since they usually see forces that are quite a bit higher than weaker brakes. As you say, always a trade off between weight and flex.

Don't know really why Hope didn't go with 9 mm MCs like Hayes, Trickstuff and TRP, for just that bit more oompf. Having used the V4 T4 quite a bit, I feel they could have. But in the end it's all a trade off between leverage and stroke, and feel at the bite point. Go too small on your MC, and you would need a lot more lever stroke to move the slave pistons the same amount. You could make pad clearance smaller to make up for this. But there's only so much you can play with, as you still want to be able to set up the brake without it rubbing the disc.

A solution to this are variable cams like Shimano Servo Wave or SRAM Swing Link. They modify the lever stroke, so leverage at the beginning of the stroke is low and pad movement high, and at the end of the stroke, leverage is high and pad movement little. Then again, it makes for a non linear feel, and when executed poorly, uneven and a lot of wear on the MC piston/bore (looking at you Shimano).

Edited November 15, 2022 by Daan

[La Bourde]

6 hours ago, Mark W said:

Part of it is that the Trial Zone has a reasonable chunk more power so it will have more flex in comparison regardless of the caliper architecture. That said, to reduce weight they reduced the size of the fin that links the two sides of the caliper, so you have more flex as a result of that too. Not the ideal combo for lever feel...

This interview with one of Hope's engineers is worth a listen: https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/hope-on-their-new-tech-4-brakes-sweating-the-details-ep-122

It's principally about the Tech 4 brakes, and in it they mention about the Tech 4 having a spongier lever feel 'in the car park' due to the extra power it has, but believing that it was less noticeable on the trail as you never pull the brakes when you're actually riding compared to standing over your bike. I think there's an element of truth to that for trials too. Obviously there are higher peak loads for trials than there are MTB, but even so I think flex is often less noticeable in use than it seems when you're just standing there. I'm definitely more of a fan of a solid feeling brake for riding, but there is generally going to be a trade off between feel and power unfortunately.

Some are better than others though, and I do agree with you about the Trial Zone lever feeling a bit wafty. Also not a fan of the creak either, which I assume is brass barrel/lever blade/pushrod related?

I agree with you.

I think consistency in feel is more important that a solid feeling. If your bite point varies, it is really really annoying.

The cable actuated disc brakes of my street/trial are a little spongy. The HS33 of my comp trial not at all. But due to some dents in the rim, the rear HS33 bites sometimes sooner as I expect. It makes manuals or rolling on the rear wheel more difficult.

Too me, the solid feeling just allows you to be more confident - I admit I bought BMX cables and housing for my street/trial and it is one really good update, cause the rear brake was really spongy.

I have the impression that having a too solid/too firm brake also increases arm pump. Basically you have to be able to hold the same pressure while your hands/wrists are moving. Any thoughts?

[LEON]

44 minutes ago, La Bourde said:

I agree with you.

I think consistency in feel is more important that a solid feeling. If your bite point varies, it is really really annoying.

The cable actuated disc brakes of my street/trial are a little spongy. The HS33 of my comp trial not at all. But due to some dents in the rim, the rear HS33 bites sometimes sooner as I expect. It makes manuals or rolling on the rear wheel more difficult.

Too me, the solid feeling just allows you to be more confident - I admit I bought BMX cables and housing for my street/trial and it is one really good update, cause the rear brake was really spongy.

I have the impression that having a too solid/too firm brake also increases arm pump. Basically you have to be able to hold the same pressure while your hands/wrists are moving. Any thoughts?

Compressionless outer cables are a must on cable discs, or any cable brake.

[craigjames]

17 hours ago, Daan said:

All calipers flex quite a bit of you look at them closely, even big ones like the Hayes Dominion, Magura MT5-7, Hope V4. Or maybe especially big ones, since they usually see forces that are quite a bit higher than weaker brakes. As you say, always a trade off between weight and flex.

Don't know really why Hope didn't go with 9 mm MCs like Hayes, Trickstuff and TRP, for just that bit more oompf. Having used the V4 T4 quite a bit, I feel they could have. But in the end it's all a trade off between leverage and stroke, and feel at the bite point. Go too small on your MC, and you would need a lot more lever stroke to move the slave pistons the same amount. You could make pad clearance smaller to make up for this. But there's only so much you can play with, as you still want to be able to set up the brake without it rubbing the disc.

A solution to this are variable cams like Shimano Servo Wave or SRAM Swing Link. They modify the lever stroke, so leverage at the beginning of the stroke is low and pad movement high, and at the end of the stroke, leverage is high and pad movement little. Then again, it makes for a non linear feel, and when executed poorly, uneven and a lot of wear on the MC piston/bore (looking at you Shimano).

The Tech4 lever has a smaller 9.5 mm piston, rather than the older levers that we're 10 mm. So a small change

[Daan]

8 minutes ago, craigjames said:

The Tech4 lever has a smaller 9.5 mm piston, rather than the older levers that we're 10 mm. So a small change

Yes, that's why I wonder why they didn't go for 9 mm. Hayes have done so with the Dominions, which have the same slave piston area as the V4. The T4 lever on the V4 caliper has a tight enough free stroke to be able to handle that. Hardly notice a difference in this regard to the the T3 lever.

[Mark W]

On 11/15/2022 at 3:11 PM, LEON said:

Might also be worth noting I've never had a Hope brake with even movement from each piston, there's always a lazy one.

Yeah, that was certainly my experience with my E4s. They took way more maintenance than my MT5/MT7 calipers to keep things moving properly. From memory it was also the case with my Trial Zone/Mono Trial calipers too, although to a lesser/not-as-noticeable extent.

On 11/15/2022 at 3:06 PM, LEON said:

Listening to the podcast now, pretty interesting yeah, I'm guessing master cyliner pistons can't go much smaller than the new 9.5mm until they start to bend/flex?

Plenty of other brands go smaller, but I think it's part of the problem of having to design one lever that works with such a range of calipers. On the TZ creaky lever front, I'm guessing it'll just be between the brass barrel and the alloy blade. As soon as either wear you're pretty screwed, really.

On 11/16/2022 at 9:49 AM, Daan said:

Yes, that's why I wonder why they didn't go for 9 mm. Hayes have done so with the Dominions, which have the same slave piston area as the V4. The T4 lever on the V4 caliper has a tight enough free stroke to be able to handle that. Hardly notice a difference in this regard to the the T3 lever.

I expect it's to do with what I mentioned above, specifically Hope making one lever that has to work with such a broad range of calipers. If they bifurcated their range as they kind of did with the Race levers before and had a couple of XC/light trail-orientated calipers with a lever designed to suit them, and then enduro/DH/'gravity' focussed calipers with a corresponding lever, the lever architectures would look different to each other, and also look different to how they've had to do the Tech 4. Hope appear to be ever-more gearing towards simplifying production lines though, so I don't see that happening.