New Hope Tech 4 trials brake

[DJEHB]

Stoked to try these out.
 

I really wanted a silver set and I’m too impatient to wait the lead time (was advised 10 weeks then they added another 10). 

 

Bought a set of tech 4 E4s and got a pair of trial zone calipers, some titanium bling and jitsie pads. Bit of an arse of a job I must say! Lever feel is really nice, I like the lower profile of the reservoir too.

Edited July 24, 2022 by DJEHB

[javimic]

What a bomb...  amazing! 

Edited July 25, 2022 by javimic
Spelling mistake

[craigjames]

They look lovely! Where did you get your Ti fitting kit from? Ti bits and some Jitsie/Trialtech pads are next on my list for upgrades  They really are a step up from the previous generations in terms of feel. Do yours have a bit of lever squish?

[DJEHB]

32 minutes ago, craigjames said:

They look lovely! Where did you get your Ti fitting kit from? Ti bits and some Jitsie/Trialtech pads are next on my list for upgrades  They really are a step up from the previous generations in terms of feel. Do yours have a bit of lever squish?

Thanks Craig. I really disliked the new levers when they were launched but they've grown on me for sure. I order from titanium planet, I'd advise to not bother ordering the titanium bleed nipples though as I've had 2 sets now and neither seal - https://titaniumplanet.com/en/

 

Ah so it's not just me with the squish then! I was planning to give them another bleed today before riding. The longer blades can't be helping with that.

[craigjames]

22 hours ago, DJEHB said:

Thanks Craig. I really disliked the new levers when they were launched but they've grown on me for sure. I order from titanium planet, I'd advise to not bother ordering the titanium bleed nipples though as I've had 2 sets now and neither seal - https://titaniumplanet.com/en/

 

Ah so it's not just me with the squish then! I was planning to give them another bleed today before riding. The longer blades can't be helping with that.

They definitely are a bit different to the previous levers, but i do prefer the feel. Mine have a good positive bite point and then a bit of squish after. Guess it's the longer lever combined with the slightly smaller piston diameter. I've tried bleeding them multiple times and no change, so they are as they are i guess! Unless there's a trick to bleeding them i don't know about... Do you also find that the pads sit very very close to the disc? Might also be a side effect of the smaller master cylinder piston size.

Thanks for the info on the Ti bits, strangely enough that's where i had been looking; good to know about the bleed nipples though... shame as I do love the Ti bits, my OCD may give me a migraine if i have to leave them as steel lol!

[DJEHB]

39 minutes ago, craigjames said:

They definitely are a bit different to the previous levers, but i do prefer the feel. Mine have a good positive bite point and then a bit of squish after. Guess it's the longer lever combined with the slightly smaller piston diameter. I've tried bleeding them multiple times and no change, so they are as they are i guess! Unless there's a trick to bleeding them i don't know about... Do you also find that the pads sit very very close to the disc? Might also be a side effect of the smaller master cylinder piston size.

Thanks for the info on the Ti bits, strangely enough that's where i had been looking; good to know about the bleed nipples though... shame as I do love the Ti bits, my OCD may give me a migraine if i have to leave them as steel lol!

I'd say the same on the bite point + squish, I'm yet to ride them so can't really comment too much.. But initial impressions aren't great there. I did give them another bleed yesterday also but not a single bit of air so as you say, it's how they are.

I've found the same with the pads, even with brand new rotors I've still got a tiny bit of contact on the front. I've added some tape to the rear pads and it's really bad, but should settle down after the tape's bedded down.

 

I'm with you on the Ti, he also didn't send me the banjo bolts with this order. He can be quite difficult so I'm not bothering asking for the £20 or whatever back this time round.

[Daan]

I reckon with the pretty massive leverage they've got (T4 Trial Zone is close to the Trickstuff Maxima), you're better off with stainless steel braided hoses. Trickstuff supplies the Maxima exclusively with those hoses, to prevent the bite point becoming too squishy.

I've got some T4 V4's on order, with the braided hoses. Long wait though, hope to give my impressions within a month or so.

[Mark W]

Some of the squish may be in part down to the design of the Trial Zone caliper - from memory, they can splay open a touch when you brake (similar to a 4-bolt frame with no booster) as there's not a huge amount of material in the caliper itself. If the lever's generating more power now it might be exacerbating that aspect of them a bit, and there'll most likely be a bit more flex within the blade itself compared to the old levers.

That's interesting to hear about the pads sitting closer to the rotors now. When you've been trying to bleed them, have the pistons been fully retracted into the calipers?

[DJEHB]

1 hour ago, Daan said:

I reckon with the pretty massive leverage they've got (T4 Trial Zone is close to the Trickstuff Maxima), you're better off with stainless steel braided hoses. Trickstuff supplies the Maxima exclusively with those hoses, to prevent the bite point becoming too squishy.

I've got some T4 V4's on order, with the braided hoses. Long wait though, hope to give my impressions within a month or so.

You could be right, I've never found braided to be a performance upgrade but in this instance it could be part of the issue.

 

26 minutes ago, Mark W said:

Some of the squish may be in part down to the design of the Trial Zone caliper - from memory, they can splay open a touch when you brake (similar to a 4-bolt frame with no booster) as there's not a huge amount of material in the caliper itself. If the lever's generating more power now it might be exacerbating that aspect of them a bit, and there'll most likely be a bit more flex within the blade itself compared to the old levers.

That's interesting to hear about the pads sitting closer to the rotors now. When you've been trying to bleed them, have the pistons been fully retracted into the calipers?

That also makes sense regarding the TZ calipers, I can't visually see it happening from above but doesn't mean it's not. However I had E4s before and found my mates TZs to have a much more solid lever feel hence the switch.

Yeah I always make sure the pistons are fully returned, I can't comment too much here though as I'm coming from different calipers so could just be that (combined with different pads also).

 

All of this is before I've even ridden them.. So take my thoughts very lightly haha.

[Mark W]

Haha, fair enough. They'll probably firm up a little once you've used them. Disc brakes are super sensitive to caliper alignment, and if they're even a tiny bit off (which realistically they're always going to be unless you have everything perfectly faced and it's all been made perfectly) you get a decrease in lever feel. Once the pads have bedded in to the rotor that should be lessened because basically it'll have adjusted itself (through the pad braking material) to be as square as possible with the rotor.

That's quite often why 4-piston setups feel a bit mushy too. I developed a slightly sticking piston on my MT5s which meant that they weren't all operating evenly, and it made me think the brake had leaked because the lever feel went so squishy and it lost so much power. It's less noticeable with MT7-style individual pads, but for the MT5/Hope style pads that cover both pistons on each side it's more noticeable. My E4 pistons used to get sticky all the time so that might have been having an impact on that too, possibly.

[DJEHB]

35 minutes ago, Mark W said:

Haha, fair enough. They'll probably firm up a little once you've used them. Disc brakes are super sensitive to caliper alignment, and if they're even a tiny bit off (which realistically they're always going to be unless you have everything perfectly faced and it's all been made perfectly) you get a decrease in lever feel. Once the pads have bedded in to the rotor that should be lessened because basically it'll have adjusted itself (through the pad braking material) to be as square as possible with the rotor.

That's quite often why 4-piston setups feel a bit mushy too. I developed a slightly sticking piston on my MT5s which meant that they weren't all operating evenly, and it made me think the brake had leaked because the lever feel went so squishy and it lost so much power. It's less noticeable with MT7-style individual pads, but for the MT5/Hope style pads that cover both pistons on each side it's more noticeable. My E4 pistons used to get sticky all the time so that might have been having an impact on that too, possibly.

Further good points! I've also just discovered a slight leak on the front so that'd certainly a main culprit.. Doh!

[DJEHB]

Further on the clock fettling has occurred and I've now got the front feeling really good, much firmer lever feel. Just need to get the rear the same, although I think that's more down to the tape on the pads (only bothered doing the rear for now).

 

@craigjames - Don't bother with the supplied titanium olives etc, I've had 2 leak now. The shrouds etc work as they should but overall his stuff isn't spot on.

Edited July 26, 2022 by DJEHB

[Mark W]

2 hours ago, DJEHB said:

Further good points! I've also just discovered a slight leak on the front so that'd certainly a main culprit.. Doh!

Boo! From the fittings or something more serious? If they're from the new ti fittings that's kind of along the lines of my experiences with dealing with companies making those kind of 'upgrade' fittings. Their attention to detail on more intricate/difficult parts like that is often pretty bad, I don't think they necessarily understand the products or purpose of them fully. Things like bolts are a bit more straightforward, but I know we had a few ti brands send us samples at TB and they were a bit sketchy, and even from better known brands we had to be careful before sending stuff out as quite often the more technical/brake specific parts just wouldn't work. Shrouds and stuff are generally fine as they're basic, but it's not worth dicking about with olives, inserts and stuff like that IME. If you can't see them and the weight saving is marginal then it's worth saving yourself time and money by just using the standard fittings.

 

 

[DJEHB]

24 minutes ago, Mark W said:

Boo! From the fittings or something more serious? If they're from the new ti fittings that's kind of along the lines of my experiences with dealing with companies making those kind of 'upgrade' fittings. Their attention to detail on more intricate/difficult parts like that is often pretty bad, I don't think they necessarily understand the products or purpose of them fully. Things like bolts are a bit more straightforward, but I know we had a few ti brands send us samples at TB and they were a bit sketchy, and even from better known brands we had to be careful before sending stuff out as quite often the more technical/brake specific parts just wouldn't work. Shrouds and stuff are generally fine as they're basic, but it's not worth dicking about with olives, inserts and stuff like that IME. If you can't see them and the weight saving is marginal then it's worth saving yourself time and money by just using the standard fittings.

 

 

Just the olives / inserts as you say. I've had the same issue twice with these ti ones, although prior to that I fit some on my MT7s with no issues.

Certainly not worth the hassle, the only annoyance is that you buy a full package through his site so you can't not 'purchase' them so to speak... But certainly don't bother fitting them. Forgot to mention I also bought some lever pivot bolts for my tech 3s that wouldn't fit. All in all, not great haha! Good to know they'd not pass the tarts QC.

 

Let's be honest, ti really is a waste of money. I'm not even sure the top elite riders bother? But who doesn't enjoy bike fettling and pimpin'?

Worst thing I ever did was move my bikes into my office 

[craigjames]

I did find the fittings i bought for another disc brake were a bit off, maybe i'll just leave as is. I just enjoy pimping my bike out, my Magura Ti fittings were spot on and leak free for years

I'll be honest i've really struggled to get the brakes 100% square to the disc, so this is probably why i'm having a slightly squishy lever. Doesn't help with the QC of trials parts, my frames post mount isn't totally square

[Mark W]

23 hours ago, DJEHB said:

Let's be honest, ti really is a waste of money. I'm not even sure the top elite riders bother? But who doesn't enjoy bike fettling and pimpin'?

Worst thing I ever did was move my bikes into my office 

I think some of the top guys do, so you're not alone! That's in comp and street trials. The thing is, these bikes are - for a lot of us - our sole hobby so if you've got the money to spend on stuff like that there's no real problem, assuming the bits themselves are decent quality. I used to have ti bolts all over my bike just because they were nice to have, although now I don't have the odds-and-sods TartyBikes ti bolts stash to choose from my bikes are pretty standard these days

22 hours ago, craigjames said:

I'll be honest i've really struggled to get the brakes 100% square to the disc, so this is probably why i'm having a slightly squishy lever. Doesn't help with the QC of trials parts, my frames post mount isn't totally square

As before, over time you'll most likely find that things will wear a bit squarer and the lever should firm up a bit. If the frame is really out then I think TartyBikes have some adaptors for their PM facing tool to fit the random sizes trials brands are pumping out these days, so it might be worth dropping them a line to see if they can sort it out for you.

[DJEHB]

Right so!

 

Been out for a ride, these are absolutely superb. Bit of tinkering with getting the pads square and all of the squish has gone. Was doing a side by side comparison with my mates hex of almost identical spec, he’s running the same calipers, pads + rotors but with tech 3 levers.. both of us couldn’t believe the power of the tech 4 set up especially given they’re not even properly bedded in.

 

Very very happy 

[LEON]

I have a Tech 3 E4 front and Tech 3 Trial rear, both set up and bled as perfectly as I can, the E4 is noticeably firmer. I'd love some Tech 4 levers but just can't justify the cost. Good to know they're another step up though.

[DJEHB]

11 hours ago, LEON said:

I have a Tech 3 E4 front and Tech 3 Trial rear, both set up and bled as perfectly as I can, the E4 is noticeably firmer. I'd love some Tech 4 levers but just can't justify the cost. Good to know they're another step up though.

My last set up was Tech 3 E4s and to be honest I loved them, until I had a play on a mate's Tech 3 Trial Zones and couldn't believe the bite. 

Surely Hope are going to have to release the levers + calipers as separate items soon as people will need spares. I listed the all new E4 calipers on eBay yesterday and already lots of interest surprisingly (I assume from tech 4 owners who want spares, rather than someone fitting them to a tech 3 lever). 

 

Anyway enough waffle from me in this thread. Very glad I took the plunge, would encourage others to do so!

[Mark W]

They will be releasing the levers separately, but I think it's just production that's holding them back at the moment. Tech 4 brakes still have at least an 8 week lead time from Hope so I expect they're slammed trying to fulfil brake orders before doing separate levers.

Glad you got them feeling better though, really shows how much spending a little extra time on setup can really pay off with disc brakes  

[craigjames]

22 hours ago, Mark W said:

As before, over time you'll most likely find that things will wear a bit squarer and the lever should firm up a bit. If the frame is really out then I think TartyBikes have some adaptors for their PM facing tool to fit the random sizes trials brands are pumping out these days, so it might be worth dropping them a line to see if they can sort it out for you.

As you say things should hopefully improve with use. It's not the face of the mounts, its the fact that the mount has not been welded square and the caliper is right on the edge of it's positional adjustment. I'll try some more fettling and hopefully it'll improve

When I spoke to Hope a month or so ago they said that they were concentrating on the current full brake orders and that levers wouldn't be available until the end of the year. That's why I bit the bullet and bought full brakes rather than upgrading my old trial zone brakes.

Are the stock Hope pads still the same old compound? Thought i'd read that they were a new "race compound", Contemplating Jitsie or TT pads as my next purchase if they are the same old pads.

[DJEHB]

52 minutes ago, craigjames said:Are the stock Hope pads still the same old compound? Thought i'd read that they were a new "race compound", Contemplating Jitsie or TT pads as my next purchase if they are the same old pads.

I can’t comment on the compound, but my Tech 4 E4s came with 2 sets of pads for each brake, a race and standard.

 

 

[Mark W]

3 hours ago, craigjames said:

As you say things should hopefully improve with use. It's not the face of the mounts, its the fact that the mount has not been welded square and the caliper is right on the edge of it's positional adjustment. I'll try some more fettling and hopefully it'll improve

When I spoke to Hope a month or so ago they said that they were concentrating on the current full brake orders and that levers wouldn't be available until the end of the year. That's why I bit the bullet and bought full brakes rather than upgrading my old trial zone brakes.

Are the stock Hope pads still the same old compound? Thought i'd read that they were a new "race compound", Contemplating Jitsie or TT pads as my next purchase if they are the same old pads.

Aaaah, I get you. Classic trials  Even if it's at the edge of adjustment, you can still try and get the pistons to hit at the same time even if they're effectively offset within the caliper. Not ideal, but should give less lever mush hopefully.

Had heard about the new compound pads, but in all honesty I'd probably just get some of the Jitsie/TT pads. They're a fairly cheap upgrade to make, and I doubt that Hope would make a compound as 'aggressive' as them simply because they'd be pretty shit for mountain biking! I don't think they do bespoke compounds for their trials brakes so it'll just be a carry-over from the rest of their line.

[Daan]

Just got my hands on some T4 V4 brakes. Got these instead of the TZ, so I can use regular discs, and have an optional backup set for my mountain bike. Before these used the T3 V4 for half a year or so on my trials bike. Before that also used the Hayes Dominion and the Magura MT5 on the same bike. And had the TZ on my old bike. So have ridden a few brakes

Anyway, one ride in, using the stock green racing pads, and so far I'm impressed. They blow the T3 lever out of the water. Action is lighter, power is way way higher, hold is massive. Lever does feel a bit mushier; bitepoint is less hard/solid. Lever travel before the brakes engage is compareable.

Compared to the Hayes Dominion, the Hope lever feels way more chunky and solid, and the action is a bit heavier. The Dominions have an unbelievably light movement in the lever. Power though is very compareable, maybe with a slight edge to the Hope, but this could also be the pads of course. Build quality is a lot better on the Hope. Since I only got a few rides out of the Dominion before the calipers started leaking, I've good hope the Hopes will fare better.

[Daan]

Damn it, the T4 lever's MC piston seals are leaking. Solid lever, but squeeze it continuously for like 30 seconds (as in, keep the brake locked up) and it creeps closer and closer to the bar until it touches it. Obviously it's letting fluid get past the seals back into the reservoir. Great brakes otherwise, but man, get your quality control together Hope!

Edited September 20, 2022 by Daan