Expensive pool noodles experience

[La Bourde]

Hi everyone,

 

 

Today Yohan Triboulat posted a vlog (in French, sorry) about the new setup of his Inspired Hex 2021.

He said he uses a Tannus Armour for 3 months now and he is really happy now. That is why he did not want to try the tubeless setup delivered with the bike (He was surprised that the Hex was delivered with a tubeless kit, nice done Inspired!)

I want to change my rear tire for several months now, but my favorite one, the Holy Roller 26*2,4 is so difficult to find currently...

I have some nice Schwalbe Tabletop 2.25 on another bike. They are really light and have basically no sidewall protection. They are almost as wide as the Holyroller.

So I ordered a kit of Tannus Amour this evening (it costs around 20€ for one wheel). It weights 300g per wheel, but the Holyroller weights around 900g and the Tabletop around 600g.

I never wanted to try these kind of insert, because I tought it make more sens to have a 300g heavier tire than a 300g rim protection. But the Tabletop are cheap.

Unfortunatly I noticed there are no longer Tabletop on the Schwalbe website.Maybe they were replaced by the Billy Bonkers in 2021. It will be a shame, the Billiy Bonker are so narrow! (2.1)

I will let you know how it works for me (I repaired 20 tubes during the lockdown, hope I won't have to do it again)

Did you try something similar? How is your feedback?

There are so many alternatives on the MTB market now ... (huck norris, crush core, pro core, MarshGuard FCK, rimpack, etc.)

[Mark W]

The Hex bikes aren't supplied with tubeless kits as standard - think that will just be Inspired sending their team riders some of their tubeless kits to try out.

I've been using Rimpacts in my Arcade and on my mountain bike for a while now. I had some DIY inserts before which I have a feeling were absorbing more sealant than the 'proper' inserts do.

From the marks I've seen on my Rimpacts, they've definitely saved my tyres a good few times! For the weight penalty they seem well worth it in my mind.

I think on the whole, for the 'normal' style inserts there probably won't be a huge amount of difference. I'd expect you'd notice more with the Cushcores simply because they're designed to fit lower in the tyre and interact more with the sidewalls, but that's possibly less relevant for trials purposes.

[La Bourde]

In addition I think the Cushcores will better prevent the tyre to blurp. But they are expensive and I don't know how long they will last under a regular trials use.

I don't want to go tubeless. I don't like sealant. That is why I ordered the Tannus (+  the low price).

To save some weight, maybe I can combine them with Schwalbe Aerothan. Two friends told me they want to try them.

 

[Daan]

Don't like dealing with sealant either, so I've been running tubeless without it on my trials bike. Might be lucky here, but it holds air fine with a maxxis tyre. Running a nukeproof noodle in the back, which is not great: stretches from the air pressure and starts to rattle, so you have to cut it down some more after a while.

[Mark W]

13 hours ago, La Bourde said:

I don't want to go tubeless. I don't like sealant.

Why not, out of interest?

EDIT: Forgot to say - I'd read up about the Tannus before, and it seemed like a lot of MTBers found that the foam kind of packed down over time. That was just for 'normal' use, so I'm kind of surprised Yohan hasn't had problems along those lines bearing in mind the impacts you get from trials use.

[Mark W]

3 hours ago, Daan said:

Don't like dealing with sealant either, so I've been running tubeless without it on my trials bike. Might be lucky here, but it holds air fine with a maxxis tyre.

Getting tyres to seat and hold isn't usually too bad. I generally seat all of mine without sealant in (and a lot of tubeless kits recommend doing it that way), then deflate them and add the sealant. It means it doesn't go everywhere, but you still get the puncture protection. I've had plenty of rides on my own bikes (and with others) where we've heard the tell-tale "psst-psst-psst" of a hole that then gets sealed with the... well... sealant.

[Matt24.]

@Mark WI picked up an older hex the other day to have a spin on a 26” after a 10 year hiatus. Going to be running some cross marks tubeless. Is it worth running inserts or should I be ok without? 

[Mark W]

I know people don't and can get away with it, but the weight penalty is pretty minimal and I found a noticeable improvement having them in for trials. I tend to do a bit of playing around with bump stuff and stair rides so it helps with that, but even for gaps you just don't get that rim-out feeling if you're running lower pressures. The Rimpacts I've got in there are fairly dense (you can use them as a run-flat if you get a proper blowout - when I was trying to take my MTB tyres off last I was surprised by just how much support they gave with no pressure in the tyre) so they really do absorb those hits well.

There is a bit of a cost associated with them, but at least they come with some nice valves so that saves you a chunk of expense. It just makes sense for me in terms of ride feel, but also because I like my bikes to be as resilient as possible. It's 85g per 26" insert so not a noticeable amount spread over that kind of area.

[ArcticBeast]

I've run tubeless for well over 10 years now, mainly on my DH/enduro bike only ever really had an issue once where the tyre blew off the rim and sealant went everywhere looked like I'd jerked off an elephant (tyre too wide rim to thin combo).

Regarding inserts I run them in the back and I'd rather the small weight penalty over having to replace tubes all the time, found Huck Norris not to be that great in the back really need something meatier there, currently using a panzer insert which has taken an absolute beating on some very rocky tracks so I'm guessing could stand up to a few stairs or square edges.

[La Bourde]

11 hours ago, Mark W said:

Why not, out of interest?

EDIT: Forgot to say - I'd read up about the Tannus before, and it seemed like a lot of MTBers found that the foam kind of packed down over time. That was just for 'normal' use, so I'm kind of surprised Yohan hasn't had problems along those lines bearing in mind the impacts you get from trials use.

I tried tubeless 2 or 3 times on my enduro or dh bike. I like sealant for the puncture protection it gives for sure. But I had once the problem that the tyre moved and released pressure. Later on I hit a stone so hard that the tubeless tyre was cut and could not be repaired. The sealant was spread on the trail. I know some kind of bio sealant is available, but still I prefer to have a tube.

Using sealant, you will not change your tyre as you will using a tube. It is aso a little more complicated to install and your tyre get "dirty". In addition, you have to check regularly that the sealant did not dry out. You need some special tool in some cases, that you need to carry with you.

Overall it might work better than a tube, but to me there are some drawbacks I do not want (more maintenance, can't swap tyres, etc.)

 

Will see how long the Tannus hold before they get packed down.

 

 

 

 

[cookie70]

Ive got a 24" tannus sitting in a box that I have not tried in the trials bike yet, i'm planning on it at some point. I ran them in enduro bike briefly but I felt the design impacted the tyres "suppleness" and felt like I had no grip! For trials this would not be an issue. Tannus advise to deflate the tyres when not in use so the foam doesn't compress.

For my enduro bikes now I run the standard type now foam insert like nukeproof ARD and it really does make a difference for minimal weight penalty.

[Mark W]

17 hours ago, La Bourde said:

In addition, you have to check regularly that the sealant did not dry out.

I don't think I've ever done that, haha. I probably should, but I check my pressures every ride and I still see a little bit of sealant as being 'active' when I do that so I assume it's all good.

In general though I think that was more of an issue on the earlier generation sealants that weren't particularly 'advanced'. The more recent stuff from brands like Muc-Off and Peaty's seem to last longer, at least from my experience with them compared to the older Joe's stuff. Peaty's sealant is bio-friendly so you could theoretically fire it all over a trail and it shouldn't really make too much difference.

To be fair, from the amount of tubes I went through on my trials bikes before I went to tubeless, a bit of latex sealant spread out here and there is probably a much smaller overall environmental impact compared to the mountain of Welterweight tubes I left in my wake...

[AdamR28]

Over 2 years from the Stan's in the front wheel on my MTB. With a huge dent in the rim.

[La Bourde]

So I rode yesterday and today with the insert in my rear tyre.

 

I switched from a Maxxis Holy Roller 2.4 to a Schwalbe Table Top 2.25 + Tannus Amour (on a DT swiss EX560 rim, innerwidth 30mm).

The installation was not too difficult. It is important to place the insert correctly so you have to take your time for that. I had to use some tyre levers (wil have to carry them in my bag), I think without it was not possible to put the tyre back on the rim.

After the installation, I was really surprised how stiff the tyre was without any pressure at all. I had the impression I could almost ride like this! The insert + Table top weight more than the Holy Roller, but no big difference.

I put 1,6 bars, the pressure I really like with the Holy Roller, but I directly noticed, that the tyre was much too stiff/hard. Like riding with 3 bars! So I reduced to about 1,3 bar. It still feels somehow stiff and "dead".

My first impression is very positive. First of all, I had no puncture when I was too short on some tranfers - I expect I would have at least one puncture on one of the missed attempts with the previous setup.The bike felt really controlled, like riding with low pressure. One thing I noticed is also the lack of rebound on small hops, the bike did not feel so lively. It was not the case when using the edge of an obstacle though. I am not sure everyone will like this feeling, but for me it is fine.

 

In addition, I gapped better that I do normaly. I think this is mostly due to my brain knowing I won't get a puncture :-) Maybe also the low pressure, giving more control.

I will continue to test this setup but currently I really appreciate it.

 

Edited March 7, 2021 by La Bourde

[La Bourde]

Today I had my first snake bite.

 

I was trying to get up on a stone using a pedal kick and I did not reach the top completely. My tire hit the sharp edge with an angle with all my weight on it.

So it is not perfect.

Two good things though: 

• I inspected the insert at home for damage or sign of compression and could not find one. I rode only 4 times with the insert,but I had already some really bad landings with.
• I was able to put the tyre back on the rim without tyre lever this time.

Also I noticed a drawback using the insert. The tyre deformes during a manual in a turn. Somehow the tyre feels like it collapses.

I will continue with the insert, as I am still very satisfied with.

[AdamR28]

It sounds like your tyre pressure is way too low. Most people would be around 2.5-3 bar.

[Mark W]

Holy smokes! Yep, that will certainly be part of it. Hadn't done the conversion before, but running that kind of pressure means the tyre deforming when you manual isn't a surprise. I run my tyres relatively low compared to most people I ride with, and even then that's still 2.06-2.4bar. When it's more towards that 30psi/2.06bar end I can feel it more when I'm manualling, especially if I'm doing a carve in that manual.

That 'dead' feeling is something I thought might happen with the Tannus. You're effectively making the carcass of the tyre thicker, meaning it will inevitably be less supple (plus you're putting more weight further away from the centre). I can see how for some applications that extra damped feeling might be good, but part of the benefit of tubeless is that you're getting a much more supple tyre as it's not being affected by the presence of a tube, or in that case a load of foam. I think it's fair to say that Cushcore are probably the highest performance tubeless insert on the market (and used by a large amount of top riders in most race disciplines), and the entire concept of them is the total opposite of what Tannus have done with theirs. Cushcore is designed to keep the bead well locked in place, protect the lower part of the sidewalls from pinches, while giving plenty of air volume above that. The Tannus doesn't really seem like it has much to help prevent tyre roll (as evidenced by how easy it is for you to fit?), and has the potential drawback of having the bulk of the protection being at the 'top' of the tyre which doesn't really do much to prevent pinches? I suppose it shares the puncture protection of a tubeless setup by virtue of the gap between the innertube and outside of the tyre being so far that it's unlikely anything will really make it through.

[La Bourde]

Yes, the pressure sounds for me too low too!

Normaly I ride 1,8 bar (about 26 psi, not sure how precise is my pump too) and that is perfect with the Holyroller for my weight (65kg, ~145 pounds): enough support and a good enough snake byte protection.

I don't ride like a pure street/trial rider, mixing BMX tricks to trial. I will say I love more the competition trial approach (i.e. going over ostacles), but I still love to manual and bunny with the bike. But I won't do a footjam tailwhip or something like that. One of my favorite riders is Rowan Johns (with Ali C, Chris Akrigg)

 

With the insert and 1,8 bar, I had the impression the tyre doesn't deform anymore. I don't like to ride with a tyre too hard, it is much more complicated on some obstacles.

I will try with a higher pressure (1,5? so about 22psi) than the one I had previously (1.3).

Riding 1.3 bar felt amazing though!

 

I agree with you, the Cushcore solution seems to have a better design. The tyre roll is still present with the Tannus for sure. But it is already a little better than a tyre with a 2-ply carcass. And yes, I think you are right, the foam brings a puncture protection by preventing direct contact between innertube and the edge.

 

So it is definitely not the best solution in term of protection. A cushcore solution with tubeless will be better in this regards I think (but it is more expensive, more difficult to install and so on... everyone has his own preference).

But I was also very suprised how good the puncture protection was on the hits while gapping too short without angle. It is much much better that with the Holyroller.

 

As I wrote in the title, this is more an experiment for me. And for 20 bucks, that is fine and I am still happy with the results! Let's test further!

(and if I get disappointed, I will put the innertube above the Tannus amour. Will be a cheap version of Cushcore then )