Hayes Dominion brakes for trials

[Daan]

Maybe a long shot, but is anyone using the new Hayes Dominion A4 brake for (street)trials? Using MT5s at the moment, and they've started leaking ever so slightly from the lever plunger/master cylinder. Could swap them out for Shimano levers, but I don't really like their shape/action. Though I'm sending the Magura's back in for warranty, I'm not a fan of the plastic lever bodies, so I thought of trying something completely different. These Hayes look pretty promising, super light lever action, very little 'empty' lever throw, good power (2x 17 mm pistons like Magura, though I don't know the master cylinder diameter). Would be great to hear of some trials experiences with them, or shall I just give it an expensive shot and be the guiny pig?

This is them:

[La Bourde]

Only read some reviews from enduro riders on some forums. They were rated positively.

For trial, I am a little worried about the two screws in the caliper to ajust the position. It is not the strongest place here...

Did you have a look at the Formula Cura 4 pistons? They have also a good call. Avid Guide RSC too.

 

[J.KYDD]

56 minutes ago, La Bourde said:

Avid Guide RSC too.

 

These are dogshit even for MTB use, 100% would not recommend for trials. 

[Daan]

Cheers, yeah, the Guides are terrible, had them on my MTB, tried them for trials in an emergency, it was scary as hell. Codes might be slightly better though. Formula I've had some really bad experiences with in the past, with two sets of their T1/The One brakes. Fine for regular MTB, but when I put them on my trials bike, they instantly started leaking past the caliper seals. Both sets, so I'm hard pressed it's just bad luck, has put me off them for good.

2 hours ago, La Bourde said:

For trial, I am a little worried about the two screws in the caliper to ajust the position. It is not the strongest place here...

Was thinking the same, basically the only thing that's holding me back. Especially with those pics of broken Shimano calipers in mind... Maybe I should try and find some of those TRP levers and match them with the Magura calipers.

[Swoofty]

I had 2 of the A4s on 2 different street trials bikes, a 24 and 26 Czar Neuron. The first A4 I got felt great and was doing everything I wanted it to do so I ordered the second one. The second one never felt all that great and was always a bit too squishy for my taste. Then after a few months the first one started leaking at the caliper. Hayes warrantied it no problem (although they did want me to just send in the caliper?!? I said no to that.) The one they sent back was like the second one I purchased; a bit vague in the bite point and too squishy. I ended up selling the 24" with the A4 included and then sold the second one on ebay. Back to MT5s again and still loving them. For the prices I've seen on the A4s, they are definitely not worth it. I managed to get mine for $120 each, but I can't find that price anymore. I can reliably get MT5s for $75 so it's kind of a no brainer.

[Daan]

On 30/11/2020 at 0:21 AM, Swoofty said:

I had 2 of the A4s on 2 different street trials bikes, a 24 and 26 Czar Neuron. The first A4 I got felt great and was doing everything I wanted it to do so I ordered the second one. The second one never felt all that great and was always a bit too squishy for my taste. Then after a few months the first one started leaking at the caliper. Hayes warrantied it no problem (although they did want me to just send in the caliper?!? I said no to that.) The one they sent back was like the second one I purchased; a bit vague in the bite point and too squishy. I ended up selling the 24" with the A4 included and then sold the second one on ebay. Back to MT5s again and still loving them. For the prices I've seen on the A4s, they are definitely not worth it. I managed to get mine for $120 each, but I can't find that price anymore. I can reliably get MT5s for $75 so it's kind of a no brainer.

Cheers, good info. I guess being anally retentive with the bleeding might handle the mushy feeling, but the leaking caliper is no good, especially for the price they go at. Where did it start to leak, past the pistons, or the banjo or bleed screws?

For now I've put some older longer MT5 lever assemblies back on (had the short ones from an MT Trail set), the flex is insane, but they seem to stay dry for now.

[Swoofty]

I wasn't set up for DOT bleeding so I never went that route. And, yeah, they started leaking through the piston so bye bye!

[Daan]

Yeah, you probably saved me from a load of frustration and money there! I've ordered some cheap Shimano Deore BL-M4100 levers for the MT5 calipers. No servo wave but a long lever for leverage, 0.5 mm smaller master cylinder than Magura for just a tad more power, and hopefully less flexy lever body. Time to experiment!

[Daan]

Since Ali's been using them and raving about them, I thought I'd give them a shot. Got them in today and fitted them. First impressions: major quality control issues at Hayes.

So, what's wrong:

One lever clamp isn't perfectly round, it doesn't fit my handlebar properly. Paint started flaking off as well. I informed the shop I bought them from and proceeded to sand the clamp down till it fit alright, thinking that was it and ready to go.

However, turns out a lot of the bolts have been overtightened at the factory. The pad bolt on one caliper was so tight I had to get out my heat gun to get it to budge and prevent stripping the head. Bite point adjustment bolt on one lever had been factory stripped: it's a tiny 2 mm allen key bolt, done up super tight apparently. On the other lever it turns fine, but on this one I can simply rotate my allen key inside the head and nothing happens.

Lever feel is nice. But these brakes are very expensive, and you'd expect great finishing quality (the calipers themselve look pretty shabby too, with the two halves sort of but not quite aligning), so I'm quite disappointed. Contacting the shop for a return, hopefully without any fuss.

Edited September 30, 2021 by Daan

[Daan]

Update on this: Hayes offered to send me a new lever. So knowing that they're backed with some proper customer service, I figured I'd still give them a go, even though they don't look as premium as their price tag would suggest. Only installed the rear brake for now while I wait for the other lever, and just had a short play in between the rain showers.

So... I think I made the right decision in keeping them, as the power is phenominal! I've ridden a lot of different brakes, with a lot of different pad compounds, but have never felt anything like this. Where on my Hex my Magura MT5s, and before that Hope Trial Zones, would usually slip when slammed into an edge that I landed way too low (I weigh 90 kg too), these just remain locked up. Crazy stuff. Super light lever feel too, with very little flex unlike the Magura's, and not such a super heavy action like the Hope Tech3, where simply pressing the lever feels like a finger workout in itself. And, hardly any pad rock, I love the silence! Hope they prove to be durable in the long run too!

EDIT: In the end, Hayes never came through with the new lever. Complete radio silence after they promised to send me a new one. Add to that, after having a look at the other brake that'd been sitting in a box for 3 weeks waiting for Hayes' lever, turns out pad clearance between the two calipers is completely different, no matter what I do (reset pistons, lube them, underfill or overfill brake). So one brake engages instantly and is impossible to set up rub free, while the other one is alright with a nice bitepoint and easy to setup. I've sent them all back to the shop, hopefully getting my money back. Absolutely done with Hayes' shit quality and service.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Daan

[Rip]

Some useful info there! Wonder if @Ali C has had any such issues?

[Ali C]

Nope, absolutely loving mine! I'm now in talks with them about sponsorship as I haven't been this impressed with a bike product in years. 

Only "issue" I had was that one of the lever bolts rattled loose after a few rides (not falling out loose but certainly not as tight as before) so absolutely no issues with over-tight bolts. I ended up dropping a tiny bit of threadlock on the bolts to stop it happening again (I need to do this with my Sram Codes lever blades too as they're practically falling out every ride) and I've not had to touch the brakes since.

[Rip]

13 minutes ago, Ali C said:

Nope, absolutely loving mine! I'm now in talks with them about sponsorship as I haven't been this impressed with a bike product in years. 

Only "issue" I had was that one of the lever bolts rattled loose after a few rides (not falling out loose but certainly not as tight as before) so absolutely no issues with over-tight bolts. I ended up dropping a tiny bit of threadlock on the bolts to stop it happening again (I need to do this with my Sram Codes lever blades too as they're practically falling out every ride) and I've not had to touch the brakes since.

Interesting, they must be quite something if you're happy with them because you've probably tried more brakes than most of us lol Maybe it simply is just a quality control issue then and a bit of a lottery as to how good any particular set will be. 

[Daan]

13 hours ago, Rip said:

Interesting, they must be quite something if you're happy with them because you've probably tried more brakes than most of us lol Maybe it simply is just a quality control issue then and a bit of a lottery as to how good any particular set will be. 

As Ali says, they do feel absolutely amazing and the power is there. The design of the lever is mostly really well thought out (with the glide ring, I believe only Trickstuff does this as well). That's why I still wanted to keep them initially. Even though the finish is just not there for the money (as someone else put it, 'a cast aluminium monstrosity', they weigh a tonne, with tool marks on caliper, caliper halves nowhere near to lining up, poor application of paint).

I think you're definitely right, it's mainly Hayes having issues with quality control. If you can look past the poor finishing and have a properly functioning set, they're really good. But spending € 340 for a lottery ticket (with good odds, but still) is not something I can personally recommend. As is support that does not come through on its promises.

Edited October 23, 2021 by Daan

[Rip]

24 minutes ago, Daan said:

As Ali says, they do feel absolutely amazing and the power is there. The design of the lever is mostly really well thought out (with the glide ring, I believe only Trickstuff does this as well). That's why I still wanted to keep them initially. Even though the finish is just not there for the money (as someone else put it, 'a cast aluminium monstrosity', they weigh a tonne, with tool marks on caliper, caliper halves nowhere near to lining up, poor application of paint).

I think you're definitely right, it's mainly Hayes having issues with quality control. If you can look past the poor finishing and have a properly functioning set, they're really good. But spending € 340 for a lottery ticket (with good odds, but still) is not something I can personally recommend. As is support that does not come through on its promises.

Their attitude with you regarding support is a bit of a worry, I guess the best thing to do is buy them through a decent bike shop so at least there is some backup there if you end up with a duff set. 

[Emanuel]

I also run them on my street trials bike: In my experience they feel absolutely awesome and i was very impressed with the performance. However for me the rear brake started leaking oil two times already. Maybe this is because my rinding isn't as smooth as Ali's rinding...

On the topic of customer service: I ordered them through a good shop, therefore I got a new brake delivered within a few weeks. Nothing bad to report here
I still have to send in my other brake, but I hope everything goes smooth as well.

In the end I will probably only run a hayes brake on the front, as modulation is perfect and run a different brake on the rear. At least for my riding (maybe a bit to harsh, still learning though) they are probably not fit for purpose. 

[Daan]

I received a free set of Dominion A2's from Hayes (did you have anything to do with that @Ali C? Otherwise they must have been super impressed with my trials skills and massive social media following.. :D). Basically the same power as the A4, but with 2 x 24 mm pistons instead of 4 x 17 mm (makes for roughly the same surface area), and a slightly shorter pad. A tad lighter too. Build quality is better than on my previous A4 set: caliper halves line up, pad clearance is the same between the two calipers and all bolt heads are intact. Pad clearance is super minimal though, impossible to set them up rub free if your disc has the slightest wobble. I guess that's a drawback of a high hyrdraulic leverage ratio and still wanting to have a lever that engages quite early.

Anyway, put them on my Hex, and so far so good two rides in! Hold is great with the stock semi metal pads, better than Magura MT5 with the long levers and Hope T3 V4. Modulation is there too and the lever action feels almost too light if that's possible. Pad knock is severe though, personally I find that unbearable, but a bit of ducktape thankfully fixed that. Let's see how they cope long term and if they start leaking.

[Rip]

Now wondering how I get a free set?! I actually tried to get some info from Hayes themselves about a couple of things before makiy an order but got such a convoluted runaround from them I gave up and never bothered because I figure their customer service would be too difficult to deal with in the event I had an issue. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by Rip

[Daan]

10 minutes ago, Rip said:

Now wondering how I get a free set?! I actually tried to get some info from Hayes themselves about a couple of things before makiy an order but got such a convoluted runaround from them I gave up and never bothered because I figure their customer service would be too difficult to deal with in the event I had an issue. 

Their customer service must be a total mess, administratively at least. I mean, I also received 6 rotors with my set, what the hell? I even contacted them, thinking this clearly must have been a mistake, but they then told me "yeah that's for you, oh and since we sent you the SFL (small finger lever) version, we'll send you some extra regular levers too". Which I then received a few days after. Not complaining, but super weird.

[Rip]

5 minutes ago, Daan said:

Their customer service must be a total mess, administratively at least. I mean, I also received 6 rotors with my set, what the hell? I even contacted them, thinking this clearly must have been a mistake, but they then told me "yeah that's for you, oh and since we sent you the SFL (small finger lever) version, we'll send you some extra regular levers too". Which I then received a few days after. Not complaining, but super weird.

lololol after I submitted a support ticket they emailed me once a day for about 2 weeks with the same email stating 'your support ticket has been forwarded to EU support', yet no one from EU support ever got back to me until I kicked off and told them to stop spamming me the same useless messages and even then only half my questions were answered so I gave up. 

[Ali C]

nope your free brakes were purely down to you

I can agree with your thoughts on the A2 though, I recently built a new bike with an A2 on the rear and I'm well impressed! Being totally honest I may either have a weeping seal or some other reason for fluid to have got on the pads though as after a day of comps it seems to be contaminated, I've not taken it apart to look yet but after the faultless reliability of my A4s it'll be a shame if these don't quite match up. I'm pleased they helped you out though and I'm confident they'll get anyone sorted if you find the right person...I know there's been a few people leaving/arriving at Hayes so if you don't get help it might just have landed on the wrong desk at the wrong time so stick with it and I'm sure it'll end up fine 

[Daan]

Funny you mention that, mine made the howl of death today before I wanted to go out riding. Figured it was because I'd tempered with ducktape and pads a bit too much. Cleaned them up before the ride (couldn't see any obvious leaks or wetness) and they've held up at least for today. Should know for sure in a few extra rides.

[Swoofty]

12 hours ago, Ali C said:

Being totally honest I may either have a weeping seal or some other reason for fluid to have got on the pads though as after a day of comps it seems to be contaminated, I've not taken it apart to look yet but after the faultless reliability of my A4s it'll be a shame if these don't quite match up.

That's what happened to my first set of A4s, but Hayes replaced it no problem.

[Ali C]

I’ve taken a good look at the brake, I can’t see any leaks anywhere, I wonder if I just glazed the pads? Shame the A2 pads aren’t as popular aftermarket 

[Daan]

On 5/20/2022 at 9:38 AM, Ali C said:

I’ve taken a good look at the brake, I can’t see any leaks anywhere, I wonder if I just glazed the pads? Shame the A2 pads aren’t as popular aftermarket 

Damn, mine are 100% leaking, the front at least (but the rear probably too, given the howl after two rides). Did a big ride yesterday, all good during the ride. Unfortunately this morning, the front suddenly howls like mad. Took out the pads, some dark wet spots on the braking material, and the rear of the pad has a slightly wet imprint of the pistons. Pistons themselves also slightly wet. Damn shame, they do really feel nice, but this is unacceptable, just 5 rides in too.

I might have a go and try and mount my Hope V4 calipers to the end of the lines, though they have a lot more pad clearance, so hopefully the lever doesn't have too much dead zone.