Street Trials, tubes, tubeless or tube + insert?

[Rip]

I decided to revisit this today, aaaaaaaaaand..... It worked! (I think)

The major differences between my epic fail last time and my (touch wood) success today are brand new tyres and decent tyre levers. The old tyres were the biggest problem I believe as upon closer inspection they were very deformed and the beads never really seated properly even when using inner tubes, my wheels looked buckled if I looked at them while they were spinning but it was only the tyres, the rims are both very true. The tyre levers also made a massive difference by making things much much easier, I used Pedros tyre levers which didn't even feel like they were close to failing whereas during my previous attempt I snapped a couple of Park levers.

So as it is I put one layer of black Gorilla tape around the rims, full width (thanks Ben), installed the valves (the tighter side of finger tight) making sure the rubber cones did not deform, wrestled the tyres and Rimpact inserts in and pumped them up to 60psi with a normal crappy no-name eBay floor pump (not even a tubeless type) and so far they've held some pressure for around an hour but with no sealant and technically not tubeless-ready tyres they won't hold much pressure for long. I wasted all my sealant on my last attempt but I work nextdoor to a bike shop so I'll get them to add to sealant tomorrow if they have time and make sure the beads are seated properly as just like last time I never got any bead popping sounds while inflating but this maybe because the tyres are so damn tight on the rim that they seated themselves while I was installing them, maybe, this would also explain how I managed to inflate them with the Worlds crappiest pump but more than likely I just couldn't get enough pressure built up quick enough with my pump so hopefully the bike shop will get them seated for me. 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Rip

[Rip]

Bike shop can't seat the beads either! They've tried a canister pump at 160psi a few times and also a compressor so at this point I'm not convinced that this tyre and rim combo are going to work with tubeless. They reckon there's a chance that the tyres will stay up if they put some sealant in even though the beads are not seated so they're going to try that.

If that's doesn't work then I'll either have to find someone who can seat them or go back to tubes. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Rip

[Mark W]

You don't necessarily have to fully seat tyres to have them seal - if they're a tight fit because you've got the Gorilla tape full width they might just not be popping quite out to the same spot on the bead, but may still seal. It's worth putting some sealant in and seeing how it goes. Having spoken to Cap, even seating those tyres with a tube was sometimes tricky if the rim tape had slid a little inside the rim and was on the section of the rim where the tyres sit. 

You can do other things like using soapy water to act as a form of lube for the tyre on the rim to get it to slide and pop into place properly, but again, if it's holding air and the tyre isn't noticeably all over the place it's proooobably going to be fine to run.

[Rip]

2 hours ago, Mark W said:

You don't necessarily have to fully seat tyres to have them seal - if they're a tight fit because you've got the Gorilla tape full width they might just not be popping quite out to the same spot on the bead, but may still seal. It's worth putting some sealant in and seeing how it goes. Having spoken to Cap, even seating those tyres with a tube was sometimes tricky if the rim tape had slid a little inside the rim and was on the section of the rim where the tyres sit. 

You can do other things like using soapy water to act as a form of lube for the tyre on the rim to get it to slide and pop into place properly, but again, if it's holding air and the tyre isn't noticeably all over the place it's proooobably going to be fine to run.

Thanks, I was under the impression I was supposed to have the tape the full width, maybe that's causing an issue for me now. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Rip

[Rip]

I got the wheels back, they said they could get any popping sounds when trying to seat the beads and they are kind of holding air for a while and there are no visible leaks. They dumped a load of Stans sealant in it and told me ride it as much as I can ASAP and hopefully that'll sort it. I'm not convinced though especially as the tyre does not seem to be seated properly, the photos below show that some parts of the tyre are further into the rim than others, looks like about half the tyre (both wheels), this is exactly what my old Macaskill tyres were like as well with inner tubes and obviously no Rimpact inserts, no matter what I did they were never even all the way around, what's causing this, the rim? The tyre? Or the fitting technique?

 

 

Ill keep topping the pressure up to 60psi over the weekend and try to keep the wheels moving so we'll see what happens. 

Also I did actually mention to the shop about using a bit of lube on the bead but they didn't seem too keen because apparently they never have to when using a compressor. I reckon a little bit may have helped but not too much because when I tried this setup a while back I blew the tyre off of the rim with a canister type track pump after applying lube so maybe there is a middle ground required. 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Rip

[Mark W]

1 hour ago, Rip said:

Thanks, I was under the impression I was supposed to have the tape the full width, maybe that's causing an issue for me now. 

Ideally not, just because you don't really need to. The tyre is covering a decent amount of the rim, so it's only really the spoke holes and any holes around the join (and the join itself, which you can do different things with to seal up) that need to be covered. The tyre forms a seal with the rim itself so you don't need tape under there, although on some setup with loose tyres it can help by making them a tighter fit.

As before, the Conti tyres do seem to have a habit of kind of sticking on parts of the Inspired rims when you're inflating them. If the tape is full width and it's sticking that could well be contributing to it.

You can sometimes resolve it by dropping most of the pressure out and trying to kind of massage the tyre across with your hands, but if it's a tight fit (as it sounds like it is) with the tape there that'll be harder to do.

If it's holding air, that's basically good to go as far as the tubeless setup itself is concerned.

[Rip]

5 minutes ago, Mark W said:

Ideally not, just because you don't really need to. The tyre is covering a decent amount of the rim, so it's only really the spoke holes and any holes around the join (and the join itself, which you can do different things with to seal up) that need to be covered. The tyre forms a seal with the rim itself so you don't need tape under there, although on some setup with loose tyres it can help by making them a tighter fit.

As before, the Conti tyres do seem to have a habit of kind of sticking on parts of the Inspired rims when you're inflating them. If the tape is full width and it's sticking that could well be contributing to it.

You can sometimes resolve it by dropping most of the pressure out and trying to kind of massage the tyre across with your hands, but if it's a tight fit (as it sounds like it is) with the tape there that'll be harder to do.

If it's holding air, that's basically good to go as far as the tubeless setup itself is concerned.

Thanks, I did try to massage the tyre into place before inflation but like you say it's so damn tight it just wouldn't move. I'll just have to see how it holds up over the weekend. I've just had a quick fast spin on the bike outside to get the sealant moving and there are a couple of small leaks Inbetween some of the tyre treads so hopefully they were the reason it was slowly losing and air so once sealed it may hold air indefinitely. There are no leaks around the beads or valve so that's got to be a good sign. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Rip

[Rip]

Well both tyres went down over night so I'm back to square one and £30 lighter for yesterday's bike shop visit. They held good pressure for a few hours yesterday but obviously have slow leaks somewhere, I'll pump them up again this morning (assuming I can get them to hold air with my track pump and seemingly non seated beads) but if the same thing happens overnight tonight then I think I'm going to have to call it another failure and go back to tubes.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Rip

[AdamR28]

Sounds like you are on the final stretch.

Although... have you sealed the join in the rim?

Non tubeless tyres and non tubeless rims will always be a lot of work to get set up tubeless.

If you have sealed the rim join then its a case of riding them now, to get the sealant spread about. They will seal eventually, couple of weeks maybe.

[Rip]

20 minutes ago, Adam@TartyBikes said:

Sounds like you are on the final stretch.

Although... have you sealed the join in the rim?

Non tubeless tyres and non tubeless rims will always be a lot of work to get set up tubeless.

If you have sealed the rim join then its a case of riding them now, to get the sealant spread about. They will seal eventually, couple of weeks maybe.

Rim join? I've taped the rim all the way around with a few inches overlap. Maybe all isn't lost then just yet, I'll keep pumping them up and try to keep them moving and see what happens. 

[Rip]

Ah, do you mean up the side of the rim? Then no, didn't really think about that. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Rip

[AdamR28]

Ah ha.  That may explain the links.

Tubeless rims have the join sealed in some way. Full width tape may do the same job if you are lucky, but sometimes not.

I've used these rims tubeless before and needed to stick a slug of araldite over the tyre side of the join.

[Rip]

Just now, Adam@TartyBikes said:

Ah ha.  That may explain the links.

Tubeless rims have the join sealed in some way. Full width tape may do the same job if you are lucky, but sometimes not.

I've used these rims tubeless before and needed to stick a slug of araldite over the tyre side of the join.

Damn it lol, that's a bit of info that has evaded me so far. 

[AdamR28]

Looks like Mark mentioned it earlier, I'm just late to the party.

[Rip]

Ah I must have missed that then. I can hear air slowly getting past the valve on the front wheel but not much I can do about it because I don't have any sealant so I can't take the tyre off. 

[AdamR28]

If the tyre has no sealant in, it will never seal...

If it's leaking out around the valve, sounds like that's coming from the join.

[Rip]

9 minutes ago, Adam@TartyBikes said:

If the tyre has no sealant in, it will never seal...

If it's leaking out around the valve, sounds like that's coming from the join.

It has Stans in it at the minute but I mean I have no more sealant to hand so I can't start again. The bike shop put a load in yesterday but I don't have any of my own currently. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Rip

[Rip]

The rear seems to be holding up short term, no visible leaks and only seems to go down overnight but the front is leaking past the valve I'm sure of it, no visible leaks anywhere but I can hear it near the valve for sure. I'll persevere with the rear by keeping high pressure in it in the hope it'll eventually seal and maybe I'll be able to disassemble the front and salvage the sealant that's in it and try to fix the valve leak. The rear is the most important one regarding having a tubeless setup so if that one pulls through then it's not the end of the world if I have to put a tube back in the front. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Rip

[Cap]

With the tyres not being tubeless they tend to leak through the sidewall to start with that's why its important to ride them and get the sealant spread around so it can seal the tyre carcass (if you use a spray bottle with water in on the sidewall you will probably see small bubbles). I found with the inserts it can make it more difficult for the sealant to get around the tyre but once everything is up and running they are invaluable in protecting your rim from damage. I had an issue of my tubeless deflating on my spank rims, after putting pressure in them a few days and riding them they sorted themselves out and sealed like a champ.

On a side note I would try and avoid putting much over 80psi even for a short time, the tyres are only rated to 60psi from memory (it has it written on the sidewall), much higher and you risk ruining the tyre. Good luck!

[Rip]

25 minutes ago, Cap said:

With the tyres not being tubeless they tend to leak through the sidewall to start with that's why its important to ride them and get the sealant spread around so it can seal the tyre carcass (if you use a spray bottle with water in on the sidewall you will probably see small bubbles). I found with the inserts it can make it more difficult for the sealant to get around the tyre but once everything is up and running they are invaluable in protecting your rim from damage. I had an issue of my tubeless deflating on my spank rims, after putting pressure in them a few days and riding them they sorted themselves out and sealed like a champ.

On a side note I would try and avoid putting much over 80psi even for a short time, the tyres are only rated to 60psi from memory (it has it written on the sidewall), much higher and you risk ruining the tyre. Good luck!

Thanks, I'll get some water on them and see if I can see any sidewall action. I'm hopeful the rear will sort itself out but the front is definitely leaking around the valve, I guess there is a chance the sealant will eventually take care of that as well. 

[Rip]

The rain is supposed to hold off tomorrow so I'll ba able to actually ride the bike properly so hopefully that'll help. 

So, I wonder why Inspired don't make their rims tubeless compatible and same for Continental and their Macaskill tyres? Seems a bit odd really as the Fourplay Team comes with Macaskill tyres and tubless is such a handy mod for street trials. 

[Rip]

In fact weren't Inspired going to release a tubless kit? Reference here, also another example of Inspired rims and Conti tyres successfully running tubless:

Also, quick thought, maybe I'd have better luck with Schrader tubless valves? they'll fit the hole in my rim better and once the core is out I've got a bigger hole to blast air through which may help seat the tyre beads. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Rip

[Rip]

Well this probably isn't the best sign, bit of sealant around one of spoke nipples. It appeared after bouncing the bike against the ground a few times in the garage so that shows sealant is being thrown around all over the place at least. 

 

 

 

[Swoofty]

Joe's No Flats schrader valves have worked for me.

https://www.bike24.com/p2272511.html

[Rip]

5 minutes ago, Swoofty said:

Joe's No Flats schrader valves have worked for me.

https://www.bike24.com/p2272511.html

That's what I found when doing a quick search, seems like a more robust option to me for schrader drilled rims. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Rip