Covid19

[JT!]

22 minutes ago, MadManMike said:

How can the definition of a Covid death be anything other than a death due to Covid?

Well, on one extreme you have any death that happens in a period of time after a positive covid test gets counted as a covid death. Then on the other extreme you have deaths from covid that are considered to be death solely by covid with no other preexisting conditions or medical vulnerabilities.

This is how we've ended up with two numbers 25 times apart.

[JT!]

On 1/28/2022 at 9:49 AM, AdamR28 said:

Still think Covid has been blown way out of proportion, and we should have focused on making people healthier to prevent rather than cure.

That's quite insane.

To start with your math means nothing. You're evenly distributing covid deaths over people with and without preexisting conditions. Even though you're trying to show people with preexisting conditions are more likely to die from covid, you ignore that premise when you're distributing the deaths. Realistically you're chances of dying are MUCH lower that what you state if you don't have a preexisting condition.

But "being healthy" means nothing anyway because covid kills old people. You can't hit the gym and eat right to get younger. And even if you could, it's almost impossible to do that over such a short timespan. And even if both those things were possible, good luck trying to get people to change their habits.

You comment reeks of "Well I'm young and healthy so why should my life have to change?".

[Ali C]

I agree, f**k the young people, we don’t need them to have their own businesses, they don’t need good mental health or a social life. It’s not like it’ll effect the country long term or anything.

Old people are our biggest assets, they need the most help as they’ve had the hardest lives…houses were so expensive when they were younger!

 

ok major exaggeration and I do like old people (I’m related to some myself) but I do think more damage has been done with the restrictions than good.

 

 

[MadManMike]

2 hours ago, JT! said:

Well, on one extreme you have any death that happens in a period of time after a positive covid test gets counted as a covid death. Then on the other extreme you have deaths from covid that are considered to be death solely by covid with no other preexisting conditions or medical vulnerabilities.

This is how we've ended up with two numbers 25 times apart.

Exactly my point, one is totally wrong, the other isn't.

[CC12345678910]

As the quote goes "There are three kinds of lies - lies, damn lies and then there are statistics"

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by CC12345678910

[JT!]

21 hours ago, Ali C said:

but I do think more damage has been done with the restrictions than good.

I think we can all agree something had to be done, and I also think we can all agree that we shouldn't have done absolutely nothing.

The real question here is if what was done, and what is still being done falls into area of reasonableness for something that is unprecedented. They were never going to get it perfect, but was it reasonable?

I feel, if a poll to the nation went up tomorrow, with two options. One being "The government didn't place enough restrictions to control covid" and the other being "The government placed too many restrictions to control covid". I think it would be a fair split which to me means the level of restrictions put in place was about right.

 

20 hours ago, MadManMike said:

Exactly my point, one is totally wrong, the other isn't.

Well the point you made was that deaths aren't being accurately reported. I would argue they are being reported accurately, it's just that the organizations who put the 6k and 150k numbers out there are interpreting those deaths differently.

[Ali C]

yeah, agreed something had to be done, I feel the first lockdowns were fair whilst we/they tried to figure out what was happening and plan the next moves. What I don't think was fair was the decisions on what was "vital" work or not, the promotion of fast food, the prolonged closure of health related services, the absolute refusal to discuss alternat procedures to the point of ruining peoples reputations, the reliance on "experts" who end up wasting billions on PPE that doesn't even work etc

There were SO many bad/random/corrupt/suspicious decisions that I honestly can't fathom how people sat there and thought things were done well...even for something unprecedented it's been really weird and frustrating to be part of. I don't think at any point in history the general public has ever wanted the government to control them or censor them as much as we have these last two years, it's quite frightening 

[MadManMike]

3 hours ago, JT! said:

I would argue they are being reported accurately, it's just that the organizations who put the 6k and 150k numbers out there are interpreting those deaths differently.

I feel like we'll forever go round in circles here so I'll stop after this - "interpreting differently" isn't a thing in this case, you either died from Covid or you didn't. It can't be interpreted any other way - did Covid kill them? No, so don't report it as that or yes, it did, report it as that.

And I completely agree with you, Ali, the response was totally disproportionate. I fully get the initial panic, nobody knew what it was and we planned for the worst, but I feel like a lot of the restrictions were really poorly thought out (Or not thought out at all - yeah, I'm looking at you, pubs closing at 10pm so that everyone floods the buses / trains / tube at the same time... that'll definitely stop the spread)

[JT!]

On 3/14/2022 at 2:53 PM, MadManMike said:

I feel like we'll forever go round in circles here so I'll stop after this - "interpreting differently" isn't a thing in this case, you either died from Covid or you didn't. It can't be interpreted any other way - did Covid kill them? No, so don't report it as that or yes, it did, report it as that.

The link you posted shows a request for all the deaths caused solely by covid 19 where covid is the only cause of death listed on the death certificate. So if someone was listed as dying from pneumonia when positive for covid, that wouldn't be included in that list.

Honestly, it's a garbage question, you ask a garbage question, you get a garbage answer.

Let's say I wanted to know how many trials bikes Tartybikes has sold, so I email them and say "Hey, could you tell me how many bikes you've sold that have no saddle?". I'm going to get a number back, but I've asked a very specific and tailored question because I might happen to believe that a trials bike is only a trials bike if it has no saddle.

Then taking that number and announcing that as how many trials bikes Tartybikes has sold would be inaccurate and dishonest, especially given that Tartybikes considers ALL the bikes they sell are trials bikes.

[PLIW]

So I’ve come down with something. 99% sure it’s a stinking cold but got rushed to doctors last night struggling to breath. Been diagnosed with asthma, they say a chest infection and this morning I had to go do a PCR as LFT is clear. So I’ve inhaler, monitors and antibiotics. Great!!

[Ali C]

do you spend much time wearing a mask? I only ask as Jane has to as part of work, sometimes 8 hours with one on and she's really been struggling to breath and has Asthma type symptoms since last year despite never having had Covid or Asthma in the past. 

[javimic]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:45 PM, Ali C said:

yeah, agreed something had to be done, I feel the first lockdowns were fair whilst we/they tried to figure out what was happening and plan the next moves. What I don't think was fair was the decisions on what was "vital" work or not, the promotion of fast food, the prolonged closure of health related services, the absolute refusal to discuss alternat procedures to the point of ruining peoples reputations, the reliance on "experts" who end up wasting billions on PPE that doesn't even work etc

There were SO many bad/random/corrupt/suspicious decisions that I honestly can't fathom how people sat there and thought things were done well...even for something unprecedented it's been really weird and frustrating to be part of. I don't think at any point in history the general public has ever wanted the government to control them or censor them as much as we have these last two years, it's quite frightening 

The restrictions have brought more harm than good, and the real damage they brought is still unknown today. The approach to the pandemic that seemed most logical
 was that of the Great Barrington Declaration, which proclaimed the care of risk groups, normal life for young people, and was against mass vaccination. But it went 
against the pharmaceutical companies. The governments put it on the agenda and instead they opted for the campaign of fear, a mandatory mask to always remind
you that you have to fear, isolation and mass vaccination. In the process some were financially sacrificed and others benefited, to later confront and divide society 
and make it more dominable. Let us remember that it was not "science" but a science in particular with conflicts of interest that promoted vaccination, censoring
 other voices so that theirs seemed unanimous and abolishing early care treatments (ivermectin, today it is known that it was and is effective). That is, scientific 
consensus never existed. Now overnight it’s over.

[manuel]

6 hours ago, javimic said:

The restrictions have brought more harm than good, and the real damage they brought is still unknown today. The approach to the pandemic that seemed most logical
 was that of the Great Barrington Declaration, which proclaimed the care of risk groups, normal life for young people, and was against mass vaccination. But it went 
against the pharmaceutical companies. The governments put it on the agenda and instead they opted for the campaign of fear, a mandatory mask to always remind
you that you have to fear, isolation and mass vaccination. In the process some were financially sacrificed and others benefited, to later confront and divide society 
and make it more dominable. Let us remember that it was not "science" but a science in particular with conflicts of interest that promoted vaccination, censoring
 other voices so that theirs seemed unanimous and abolishing early care treatments (ivermectin, today it is known that it was and is effective). That is, scientific 
consensus never existed. Now overnight it’s over.

You don’t think there is any chance that the mass vaccination program have helped this to be “over”? Also - link the studies that prove these alternative treatments effective. Anecdotal evidence means shit in a global pandemic. 

[Ali C]

I honestly don’t think the vaccines sped anything up…well ok maybe they did as they allowed people to have fewer restrictions and get out and spread the virus allowing it to mutate and become less dangerous but I don’t think that was the intention.

[javimic]

On 3/18/2022 at 5:24 AM, Ali C said:

I honestly don’t think the vaccines sped anything up…well ok maybe they did as they allowed people to have fewer restrictions and get out and spread the virus allowing it to mutate and become less dangerous but I don’t think that was the intention.

Totally agree.

[javimic]

On 3/18/2022 at 3:16 AM, manuel said:

You don’t think there is any chance that the mass vaccination program have helped this to be “over”? Also - link the studies that prove these alternative treatments effective. Anecdotal evidence means shit in a global pandemic. 

Manuel, this is not my mother tongue, so please excuse my spelling errors. Clearly, to say that the vaccines have not been of any use is unverifiable, but what can be said by being visible to anyone who wants to see, is that they are not even close to what they had promised: the vaccinated person gets infected, transmits the disease, he is hospitalized and dies the same. One of a reference in drug surveillance in Europe, Joan Ramón Laporte Roselló exposed with the evidence in hand in the Congress of Deputies of Spain (not in an IG post or FBK) the results of the Pfizer clinical trials and that evidence it was not shown to prevent death (also look up Pfizergate for more scandal, according to the British Medical Journal). Not even the FactCheckers dared to say that it was false but simply that it was out of context. For more, and in a more fun format, listen to Joe Rogan's podcast with Dr. Robert Malone (creator of mRNA technology) on Spotify (There is another with McCullough).
For early treatments the one is Dr. Peter McCullough who testified several times in the Texas and national Congress of EEUU.
Respect to the ivermectin link, I left you a paper and also the early care protocol, nothing anecdotal.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34466270/

https://covid19criticalcare.com/covid-19-protocols/i-mask-plus-protocol/

[manuel]

All I would say is the first paper is just someone interpreting and arguing for ivermectin in studies that have been completed elsewhere. Not an actual study. And the second is neither, I’ve no idea who the flcc are and really on what basis they operate. I’m open to the idea that ivermectin is effective, but yet to see a study that isn’t controversial or is widely accepted as conclusive.

The rest about vaccines- the statistics don’t support a lot of what you are saying.

[manuel]

15 hours ago, javimic said:

Totally agree.

So in this thread we kinda established that unhealthy people and people with health conditions are the people that were dying in great numbers - we vaccinate them and they stop dying in such big numbers - normal people get less sick, people get to go out and do stuff - vaccination does nothing? 

[Ali C]

But did the vaccine help or did they start rolling out when the virus mutated to be less dangerous?
 

If I started selling blessed rocks to the entire population just when the severity of the virus was decreasing then it’s possible everyone would say these rocks worked too.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not denying the vaccine could’ve had a benefit, I don’t think it was entirely useless I just don’t think it was necessary for most young healthy people and I especially don’t think the us/them mentality (which I can’t believe is still going on!) is good at all!

 

I think saying the vaccine got us out of the pandemic is a pretty wild claim though, there’s a lot more to take into consideration 

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

So where do we buy these blessed rocks?...

[MadManMike]

Also interested in the rocks, group buy discount?

[JT!]

5 hours ago, Ali C said:

But did the vaccine help or did they start rolling out when the virus mutated to be less dangerous?
 

If I started selling blessed rocks to the entire population just when the severity of the virus was decreasing then it’s possible everyone would say these rocks worked too.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not denying the vaccine could’ve had a benefit, I don’t think it was entirely useless I just don’t think it was necessary for most young healthy people and I especially don’t think the us/them mentality (which I can’t believe is still going on!) is good at all!

 

I think saying the vaccine got us out of the pandemic is a pretty wild claim though, there’s a lot more to take into consideration 

I think we're going to learn a lot about how effective the vaccine was in years to come, I think it's very foolish to disregard it so heavily. What we do know is that the vaccine works against covid, it makes antibodies that stop you from getting as sick, if at all, and it reduces the chance of death. The only real downside to the vaccine other than mild side effects is presupposing that the vaccine its self is harmful.

But I agree that the vaccine wasn't solely responsible for reducing the spread, lockdowns, sanitizing, masks, natural immunity all played a part too.

[MadManMike]

57 minutes ago, JT! said:

What we do know is that the vaccine works against covid, it makes antibodies that stop you from getting as sick, if at all, and it reduces the chance of death.

"We" don't know that though, we're just told that.

From my own experience, myself and other friends have had just the same level of suffering with Covid as friends and family that have had the vaccine. I know of loads of people that had it over Christmas and quite a few in the last three months and they've all felt a bit shit for 5-7 days, whether they had the vaccine or not (And they're not all my age, they're all ages right up to my nan who is 90). That's what is making me doubt the effectiveness. I do appreciate my social media circle isn't large enough to give solid proof, but I don't have access to a lab and 10,000 volunteers.

The guy from Pfizer said we'll probably need a fourth jab soon though - and he has no reason to try and push another vaccine, does he?

[Alyksett]

"I do appreciate my social media circle isn't large enough to give solid proof, but I don't have access to a lab and 10,000 volunteers."

Fair enough, it would be great if there existed some publicly funded organization that had access to world tier labs and millions of cases to analyze the symptoms of Covid with/without the vaccine...

And then when these labs publish their findings you discredit it and say "We're just told that"... ?

[Ali C]

But unless they have every variable covered how useful/accurate is it going to be? I’d guess that they’re not able to get every persons weight, vitamin D levels, general health, social behavior and viral load level, without these figures we can’t truly say what happened.

 

Maybe someone who had a lesser effect after having a vaccine was young and had a low viral load?

 

Maybe someone who wasn’t vaccinated and got very ill was older and had spent all winter indoors and therefore had low vitamin D levels?

 

Maybe there’s every combination of the above (plus taking any confirmation bias out of the equation)…what I’m saying is you can quote all the trials and tests you want but we can’t get a truly 100% accurate answer unless we know all the data. Again, I’m not saying the vaccine didn’t do anything, I just think it wasn’t some miracle cure and I think the way it was marketed and the way our behavior was manipulated was VERY concerning. We quickly found out people’s willingness to turn on each other that’s for sure.

I have zero regrets for not being vaccinated so far but I’m yet to get Covid and as always I’m willing to eat my hat if I have a seriously bad time when I get it.