Strains from bad rear hop technique?

[marg26]

Been practising trials for a year and was wondering today if arm/shoulder strain could be a symptom of bad rear hop technique?  I think perhaps I'm not leaning back enough with my body and using my bent arms to try to force the front wheel up as a consequence. Can be seen in this video.

Does that sound right? Or is trying to learn trials on top of daily commutes on a rigid MTB just going to do that to someone well past the prime of their youth?

This afternoon spent some time practising rear wheel hops off a 1ft kerb and trying to maintain the balance/position to continue with a few more hops after landing (instead of the front wheel landing shortly after rear). This forced me to lean back more than usual which while feeling a bit precarious also felt like a step in the right direction.

I've been aiming to do rear hops on a low 1ft wall for a while now, went to do it toward the end of my session today but didn't have the balls/confidence yet.

Edited December 13, 2019 by marg26

[isitafox]

What do you mean by strain? 

Is there a specific place where it hurts and is it made worse by certain movements (on or off the bike)? 

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

If you're fairly new to trials then my guess is that you're using muscles in a new way and what you're describing is a soreness due to these muscles being pushed a bit. The result of that is that your body should work to build those muscles so that it's better prepared next time. Trials uses your shoulders a lot and if you stick with it you'll find that your arms and upper body in general should develop well to cope with what you're doing.

In terms of technique it definitely looks like you're a bit too upright and could do with lowering the front more and leaning back to compensate. If you haven't seen it already check out AliC's video:

 

[marg26]

2 hours ago, isitafox said:

What do you mean by strain? 

Is there a specific place where it hurts and is it made worse by certain movements (on or off the bike)? 

Not DOMs for instance. Maybe overuse? Sometimes minor twinges raising arms above head. I've been trying to build upper body strength on and off (mostly off) for the past few years and have found it incredibly easy to over do it (or I'm just a wuss). But the feeling recently with rear wheel hops is slightly different so wondered if bad rear hop technique is known for causing strains in the more forward facing part of upper arms/shoulders (I don't know anatomy sorry). As mentioned, it is slowly improving. Re upper body strength one of my goals was to do handstands, and a week ago I decided to do a chest-to-wall handstand (walking my feet up the wall starting in plank position) once every day to see how it goes. I've been doing a warm up (random stuff from youtube) in prep which seems to help overall, and also using it to warm up before trials bike which I think is helping - but a week probably isn't long enough to be sure. Sorry get a bit rambly with this stuff.

Yes have seen that Ali C video, should definitely refresh myself with what he says. Re upright position, I recall what he says about not bringing bars to chest, but I kind of feel a bit more balanced that way on top of the bike.

Edited December 14, 2019 by marg26

[Ali C]

I think one issue could be that you're fairly stiff on the bike (which is natural until you get the muscle memory later on). Being stiff means you're not using your muscles efficiently and using muscles you don't need to use. Your body is probably being shocked by it and could be causing the symptoms you're getting...I remember I got really painful fingers after about a year of riding, about the time I was doing more backwheel stuff.

It does look like you're a bit too steep on the bike too and with a very elbows in position, riding elbows in whilst straining them is pretty brutal on the shoulders, it's kinda like trying to do a bent arm lever in the gym, something most people would struggle to do without much training.

My advice? Hold off the backhops for a week and let your shoulders recover, meanwhile try and work on two wheel balance and see about getting a more relaxed posture (easier said than done)...there's no shame in taking a step back if needed and running before you can walk can slow you down in the long term. Once you feel like tackling backhops again try rocking onto the back wheel with an endo and try and find the balance point without hopping, use your body weight, your hips, knees anything to keep on that point...that should help you stop being as stiff and should take some stress off your arms and shoulders.

Good luck.

[isitafox]

I'd have thought if it's the front of your shoulders there'll be a grip and pulling element affecting you. Like Ali says the position of your arms and the bike in the vid show you're pulling to keep the front end up rather than balancing, you should be able to hold the balance on the rear wheel for a second or two without hopping if you're in the right position. 

Another thing that I think will be adding to it is it sounds like the rear brake is slipping slightly which would cause you to squeeze the bars and brake lever harder than you need which again will be adding pressure on to your bicep and shoulders. 

I can send you a video showing a really easy stretch for the front of your shoulder if you want? Should help a bit, let me know 

[marg26]

Thanks for taking a look at the video and giving feedback. Definitely agree re stiffness and lack of muscle efficiency, the amount of effort I put into small moves just doesn't scale up to the big moves. Re my body position, I think it's slowly coming along, I do reach the point from time to time where I hold balance for a second or so without hopping, but it takes an amount of focus on what I'm doing, maybe like ticking off everything on a checklist, that I'm still getting used to when riding a bike. Not so keen on the advice to hold off from the backhops for a week, but actually probably pretty sensible.

Yes please to the stretching video, it is something I've felt would help.

[marg26]

I didn't take the trials bike out over the Christmas period, and only went out a couple of times on the MTB (vs the usual daily rides to work & back). Wasn't until around NYE I went out on the trials bike. This time stopped myself from bring the front wheel up as high as I could while rear wheel hopping. It did feel to be an improvement, and felt better immediately after the ride, but the dull pain still sporadically comes and goes over the week that followed.

I don't think it's rear hops so much as anything where I made a sudden energetic move, which sometimes is just to pull myself back into stable position on the bike.

I thought to try some wrist/forearm stretches which I've used in the past: starting with hands and knees on floor, palms down, fingers spread, rotate both hands outwards until fingers point back to knees. It's a stretch I really need to be careful not to put too much stress on the wrists with, so usually start with my bum back near a more seated position. Then begin to lift my back toward horizontal which gives a good stretch all up my arms toward shoulders around even lats.

Abi Carver has a series of yoga videos on her youtube channel meant to be good for mountain bikers, so going to try a few of them. Also starting to learn to swim, so hopefully a non-impact form of exercise will do my shoulders good :-)

[marg26]

Well I've still been getting this issue recently, it culminated I think when I went to Radical Bikes in August on their re-opening after the worst of lockdown was over. Other than a single ride, haven't ridden the trials bike since. Decided I'd give trials a break for a few months and attempt to improve my upper body strength. Been doing low reps of dips, pull ups, bodyweight rows, push ups etc. Low reps because I'm not strong. Still been getting the strained feeling. Have found to some degree these exercises improve it. Wondered if it's possibly week rotator cuff, but not sure. Found scapular pull ups and push ups actually help. Seems though I find some exercise that helps and a while later need to find something else. Trying to mix it all up more and do more movement based exercise as noticed all sorts of instability in general and shoulder seem a bit lopsided. Seem to hold right shoulder up a bit... wonder if in connection with holding a mouse at a desk for long periods.. Anyway, hope to get back to learning trials at some point but got a lot going on at the moment.

Edited September 25, 2020 by marg26

[cwtrials]

How long do you ride when you practice?  Marathon sessions can leave even experienced riders hurting for a few days.

Sometimes I find if I practice the same move repetitively, like just sidehops for an hour, besides being incredibly boring it puts the same stress on my body over and over again.  Different moves put stress on different areas, so if you really mix things up, it spreads it around your joints.

Strength exercise will make a big difference.  Keep it up for sure.  You'll find it's so much easier to hold the bike in a controlled position with less wobble and balance hops once you've got good proportional strength.

[Maintenance Justice]

I've found technique plays a big part in reducing fatigue. The watershed moment for me was a YouTube vid explaining the effort for hops comes from flexing your ankles and letting your legs do the work instead of pulling hard on the bars for each hop. Something I'd not really thought about before. That helped a lot - getting the bike upright close to the balance point takes the strain off your arms too. Practice practice! I try to ride 3 times a week with a good emphasis on hopping to build strength and technique and it seems to be helping. 

[marg26]

I don't do any long sessions, usually just an hour, but I'm thinking about continuing with shorter rides say 45 minutes. From watching group ride videos, it seems like lots of people spend lots of time sat around not riding! Ride today was 40 minutes, resting lest than 10 minutes. Wait for heart rate to calm down and go.

Agree about the strength, saw improvement in some moves today despite taking a break from it.  One improvement was hopping onto a small ledge (14") onto rear wheel, something I've really struggled with in the past. Got it a few times and then just got the feeling it wasn't going to happen again today. Take your point about repetition too, avoiding boredom is a good motivator against that though.

I tried going out 3 times a week, I think that's when the problems get too much. Going to continue with trials once or occasionally twice a week which at least leaves time and energy for other forms of exercise besides bikes.

[marg26]

18 hours ago, Maintenance Justice said:

Practice practice! I try to ride 3 times a week with a good emphasis on hopping to build strength and technique and it seems to be helping.

I was thinking about this some more and I probably did have a similar approach. I wanted to be just be riding along on some 25mile xc/trail ride, see some random obstacle and just hop up/over/whatever as if it was nothing, something like a Chris Akrigg MTB video! It needs stamina, so would sometimes treat my trials rides more like endurance exercise than a skills exercise.

I've watched a lot of bodyweight + strength training videos and they always talk about the requirement of good form, and when training for skills (ie not strength) to avoid going anywhere near the point of fatigue because that is when bad form arises, bad habits are formed, mistakes made etc.

Being in my forties I need to take more care so just can't practice practice practice at trials.

[Maintenance Justice]

20 hours ago, marg26 said:

Being in my forties I need to take more care so just can't practice practice practice at trials.

Very true, I'm mid 30's and I find how I practice is really important. When I was younger I just threw myself at stuff, now it's a gentler approach making sure the technique is right then scaling it up with some rest days inbetween. 

[marg26]

After saying all that and intending just one trials ride a week I ended up going out for a half hour session for 3 days in a row. On the third day I felt the need to take it a bit easier which brought the realization riding trials doesn't need to be a fight against my body. For instance pulling hard on the bars when on the rear wheel but not having the looseness in the legs to allow the bike to move. Which I guess is similar to what you said above. Trials definitely doesn't come naturally to me.

[Maintenance Justice]

10 hours ago, marg26 said:

Trials definitely doesn't come naturally to me.

I think a lot of people starting out could relate. I had a similar thing with juggling, I had mates who were amazing at it and I wanted to learn but I just couldn't do it at all! I persevered and just kept hacking away at it breaking down the technique to the most simple steps then it felt like every tiny improvement was a victory which kept me going. Eventually I cracked it and the key was to relax, and focus on energy efficient throws doing the least work possible and giving yourself as much time to think as possible. 

Watching experienced riders you see how they don't dawdle and keep moves as smooth as they can. When I started I wasted so much energy hopping for ages before committing to something or balancing for ages before lifting the front wheel, it's so draining! Recently I've tried to just get on with the section rather than faffing, it helps a lot. You waste less energy and yea you make mistakes but you waste less time too and get more tries in. 

[marg26]

Slight update, I still get bit of a strain, currently in upper left arm, and is a few days after AZ covid jab there (probably coincidence) but I've found, thanks to work colleagues having an informal plank challenge, that attempting to plank longer than 2 minutes actually sorts it right out afterwards, which was nice.

Edit: and to add, as far as technique goes, I'm slowly improving. Read an interesting Bashguardian article about rear wheel control. For a while I've been lamenting my lack of efficiency at the technique, but without any idea about what I could do other than keep practicing. Today, realized the connection between muscular tension and balance, so tried less muscular tension and more balance, in other words, I have not been balancing enough and to compensate used muscular tension to avoid completely losing balance. Why not balancing enough? Not relaxed about it. Why not relaxed? Not practiced/experienced enough. Carry on.

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by marg26