does having more engagement points always improve your riding ?

[La Bourde]

Hi everyone,

 

recently I bought for my main bike a new rear wheel that has more engagement points (new hope pro 4 Trial with 88 engagement points to replace an old Pro II with 40).

I noticed I had to get use to it, but overall it seems to be a good update.
 

This week I ordered a 135.9 freewheel for my brakeless bike (júst want to try to ride brakeless).

I am surprised how much drag there is and I am not sure I want to ride further with. An old FW with 60 or 72 engagement points has almost no drag . But these 135.9 freewheels seem to use some strong springs (120.9 also).

My first question is: will the drag lessen after bedding-in ?

My concerns:

1. Sometimes, my body position isn't correct. With the old hub, I could move my feet more without engaging. I had more free degrees of rotation so I could be less precise but still get things done. With the new hub, I have to be much more precise. Maybe it is good for an expert, but for a bad rider like me ?
2. Because the engagement happens so fast, I am worried about riding backwards, for example after landing an abubaca. Basically it reduces the time you have to react. Is this a problem ?
3. The drag is really important. I love to manual and I always hated when my disc brake was bent and slown me down. It makes some lines more difficult, because you loose speed.
4. In addition, due to the important drag, the cranks rotate when the rear wheel rotates forward. Will I get more pedal bites ? It makes for sure tricks like crank flip or foot jam tailwhip more difficult (I can't do it so that is fine) 
5. One of the thing I appreciate riding brakeless is the simplicity. The bike rolls better (tires help too) and is quiet. It is a nice feeling. But the 135.9 is so loud ! And also I can feel the spring while riding slowly. Uncool.
6. Because the chain tension is never perfect and induce some dead rotation, can someone distinguish between a 135.9 freewheel from a 120.9 ? or even 109.9 ?

Does having more engagement points make sens for street/trial riding ? (It is obvious for competition trial)

For the beginners too ?

Do you care about drag on your bike ?
Does a free hub like the Industry nine torch SS (120 engagement points) have less drag ? Maybe these FW have just a poor design?

PS: Sorry to be that geeky :-)

[Mark W]

The drag is just a result of them being good, basically - the thing that makes them have good, precise, solid engagements also leads to the extra drag.  With that style of freewheel it won't go away when they've bedded in.  It's usually a little less in the normal 108.9 freewheels which should be a better compromise for you.  When I was at TartyBikes we'd get cycle speedway guys ordering freewheels, and they'd usually opt for the 108.9s because they had much less drag than the 135-click freewheels.

Is your freewheel on your cranks or your rear hub?  If you're using FFW, a rear freehub will feel like it has less drag, primarily due to the chain not having to always rotate when you're riding like it does with a FFW system.  I switched from a rear freewheel to a freehub and it did feel like it had less drag too so it should help out overall.

I know what you mean about the precision thing, but that's a good thing to need to get used to in a way.  Having the quicker engagement will help you more times than it will hinder you, so it's worth that 'problem', if that makes sense.

[La Bourde]

Thanks Mark for your reply.

2 hours ago, Mark W said:

The drag is just a result of them being good, basically - the thing that makes them have good, precise, solid engagements also leads to the extra drag. 

Not sure about this. I read that the design of the pawls (angles, size, profile), springs and ratchet is although really important. And to be honest I can't imagine that trial brands invest so much in R&D for FW (no finance). Sure the more engagement points, the more drag using the same design thought.

Look for example at the profile freewheel (140 engagement points), used in BMX race:

They also have a rear hub with 200 engagement points. I think their design should be superior because drag will be definitivly rejected by BMX racers.

There is less torque (almost 3x less, most use a 44/16T config) on the freewheel, maybe it makes a big difference too.

With my current Monty 135.9 in my hands, it was suprised I had to hold it tight to actioned it.

 

2 hours ago, Mark W said:

Is your freewheel on your cranks or your rear hub?  If you're using FFW, a rear freehub will feel like it has less drag, primarily due to the chain not having to always rotate when you're riding like it does with a FFW system.  I switched from a rear freewheel to a freehub and it did feel like it had less drag too so it should help out overall.

On my rear hub.

 

2 hours ago, Mark W said:

I know what you mean about the precision thing, but that's a good thing to need to get used to in a way.  Having the quicker engagement will help you more times than it will hinder you, so it's worth that 'problem', if that makes sense.

Not sure here too. Maybe it is the same as with suspension of a professional DH racer. I won't be able to ride fast or engaged enough to use the whole travel and the shim stack of the suspension won't be optimized at all for this kind of shaft speed. So it is too harsh for me and I will get tired earlier than with a stock suspension. Sure it forces you to try to ride faster.

 

So you mean a 108.9 has less drag. I'll lose 0,5 degree of rotation, that is nothing.

Is there still much more drag than with a 72 clicks freewheel ?

[AndyT]

Only time engagement points matter is when theres only 8-20 of them. 

A lot of us remember a time when 24 eng points was nuts. the 72 points of king were ... well the king of the time. Riding trials with 12 engagement points SUCKS. Riding trials with 48 engagement points or 80 or 135- they are all in the same boat - all great to experience.

I recently got a 135 click freewheel and I agree with the drag- thats just what it is. I’ll take it over an ACS claw any day of the week...