Luke Rainbird Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 The introduction of tuition fees actually had a pretty significant impact in HE in a few ways; 1. Students put a little more thought and consideration in to whether or not it was worth them going to university. Some of those who were juts planning on going "for the experience" decided against it as their hopeful career path post-uni didn't require a degree, so it seemed counter intuitive to spend those figures on something they didn't need, ad they could go and work whilst still having friends and getting pissed a few nights a week. Those who either wanted a career requiring a degree, or genuinely wanted to learn more about a subject which didn't absolutely insist on one were still able to go to uni and do so, simply valued that opportunity enough to justify the cost. 2. With increasing tuition fees, universities themselves found themselves under increasing pressure to justify their worth and provide more value for money in order to get students through the door. I'm aware that some rested on their laurels a little here, but the vast majority of UK courses were analysed and reshuffled in line with a number of changes from HEFCE and the like to meet new guidelines. The more proactive institutions had no issue with the extra workload here as for many it brought in higher numbers (once caps were lifted) than they'd previously seen, though of course there were issues with costings here as despite tuition fees going up, may were left with lower net funding as the money was taken from elsewhere. 3. More and more apprenticeships started popping up, and are continuing to do so to this day. The quality of these is also increasing, which is partly to do with the above but also to do with the introduction of the "work or education until 18" mandate. Those who leave school prior to 18 would typically find their way onto apprenticeship schemes, with many of those leaving after 6th form going down a similar (though typically slightly higher level) scheme if deciding not to work/go to uni as it offered a valuable way into a career which was more vocational and offered OTJ training. Bear in mind the way the student finance system works, and is effectively a graduate tax in the way it's paid, the vast majority of folk who suffered at the hands of the increased fees were actually better off than those who were on the older (lower fees) system due to increased payback threshold. Many aren't ever going to fully pay back their loans, but it's an effective way to subsidise an expensive level of education. We're not talking primary school teachers here, we're talking experts in their respective fields in most cases (not to take anything away from primary teachers of course, who face a very different set of challenges) I've waffled on a bit here and about to shoot out the door so I've not had time to proof read (apologies if the spelling/grammar are a bit iffy, or if I've worded things poorly) but to summarise, tuition fees alone aren't a bad thing, you have to take into account the level, application, and impact on the sector before deciding that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 6 hours ago, Luke Rainbird said: The introduction of tuition fees actually had a pretty significant impact in HE in a few ways; <snip> Exactly what he said. Problem is it seems to be labours #1 policy. Basically to attract young voters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HippY Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 13 hours ago, Luke Rainbird said: The introduction of tuition fees actually had a pretty significant impact in HE in a few ways; 1.<snip> 2. <snip> 3. <snip> 4.Bear in mind the way the student finance system works, and is effectively a graduate tax in the way it's paid, the vast majority of folk who suffered at the hands of the increased fees were actually better off than those who were on the older (lower fees) system due to increased payback threshold. Many aren't ever going to fully pay back their loans, but it's an effective way to subsidise an expensive level of education. We're not talking primary school teachers here, we're talking experts in their respective fields in most cases (not to take anything away from primary teachers of course, who face a very different set of challenges) I've waffled on a bit here and about to shoot out the door so I've not had time to proof read (apologies if the spelling/grammar are a bit iffy, or if I've worded things poorly) but to summarise, tuition fees alone aren't a bad thing, you have to take into account the level, application, and impact on the sector before deciding that. 1. Might be true (eg. chances are partially it is, I have no numbers or experience to say it 100%), although many people are here "to be at the uni". Not sure what could change it, or whether it needs to be changed 2. They might be under pressure but it became a running joke (which hurts) among teachers and students that we need to pay for printing papers, and some demonstrations are a guy literally running up or down or a bottle of water (I am studying electronics). We have a lovely student union which is really nice and pretty much we are calculating how much credits we have lost and how much it costs us 3. Great thing, I love apprenticeships and work placements! 4. Well, it has changed (student finance NI). At the moment the salary threshold is £18,000 (£17, 9 something something) and the payback is 9% ( I remember seeing something high value like that when I was applying for it 2 weeks ago), which means if I earn £27K per year (normal engineering money, £2250 per month) I will pay £202 for loan repayment, which is not a small amount of money. If you ask me, because of this repayment there is still a consideration to take in, as it will cost a lot, and if teenagers want to go to uni just for YOLO, then there is nothing that can stop them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 I worked in the sector over a 5 year span at various levels, so saw it from all angles and from the changes to the system from £1k fees shortly before I went to uni myself, through to £9k when I was working for a couple of them. Afraid I don't have the figures to hand, although I'm sure a little hunting online would pull them up if you wanted them - plenty of studies from a number of bodies all pretty well correlated to show that more thought was going into deciding whether or not to go into HE. If people want to go to uni for the hell of it then they're more than welcome, but the taxpayer in general isn't going to be quite so keen to pay for Billy to go and get crunk for 3 years than someone who's going to bring a little increased value to society Current threshold is £21,000 at 9% of the excess yeah. When fees were £3k the threshold was £15,000 at the same percentage. As a result, and bearing in mind that you pay back relative to your earnings, not to what you borrowed, the monthly repayments on the newer (current) scheme are lower than they were previously. Obviously there's the likelihood that students will be paying them back for longer due to the increased amounts, but you have the option to overpay if you choose (though why you would is beyond me) and it still gets written off after 30 years if you've somehow not paid your dues by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 23 minutes ago, HippY said: At the moment the salary threshold is £18,000 (£17, 9 something something) and the payback is 9% ( I remember seeing something high value like that when I was applying for it 2 weeks ago), which means if I earn £27K per year (normal engineering money, £2250 per month) I will pay £202 for loan repayment, which is not a small amount of money. No, you'll pay 9% of £9000/12 so £67.50 which is a fairly small amount of money. In actual fact it's likely to be less because it's probably taken after salary sacrifice stuff, tax and NI etc. so it'll be less than £50 or thereabouts. I think. Edit: and even less with the £21k threshold Luke mentioned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 hour ago, HippY said: which means if I earn £27K per year (normal engineering money, £2250 per month) I will pay £202 for loan repayment I'm on the old system and don't pay much less than that. You generally don't notice it as you never had that money anyway. Thankfully mine will be paid off in 10 months but I've been paying it off 10 years and that was only a 12-14k loan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HippY Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 hour ago, monkeyseemonkeydo said: No, you'll pay 9% of £9000/12 so £67.50 which is a fairly small amount of money. In actual fact it's likely to be less because it's probably taken after salary sacrifice stuff, tax and NI etc. so it'll be less than £50 or thereabouts. I think. Edit: and even less with the £21k threshold Luke mentioned. alright, that is great, I got that mixed up Although I am pretty sure that the new threshold is £18K at Northern Ireland student finance 1 hour ago, Luke Rainbird said: <snip> I just wanted to add some points there as from someone who is in there atm, not arguing But yes, to have 10,000 students on student finance as they want to be students for 3-4 years that is way too expensive The system in Hungary is a bit different ( it might have changed multiple times in the past 6-7 years): Students have 2 options: A: pay roughly £2000 per year by own/parents pocket (that is quite bit of money considering £1200 is a good salary there) B: be a good student (really high grades required) and the government pays for it ("free") I think option B would help here to make sure not too many "YOLO" students are going NOTE: if none of these makes sense, sorry, I am staring at physics books whole week long, I have not had human contact apart from my flatmates for a week 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Anscombe Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 No confidence ! illusion of choice may has already won Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolfa Posted May 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 Why even bother voting then eh, just let them win and issue a firm "told you so" at the end of it. Funnily enough, my tin foil hat, stoner cousin said the same thing on Brexit, how we'll obviously never leave, illusion of choice bla bla... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dann2707 Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 Is that comic f**king sans 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Anscombe Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 10 hours ago, Jolfa said: Why even bother voting then eh, just let them win and issue a firm "told you so" at the end of it. Funnily enough, my tin foil hat, stoner cousin said the same thing on Brexit, how we'll obviously never leave, illusion of choice bla bla... Hi jolfa I lost faith in this system along time ago ,politics is big money ,Big money games with big players ,we the little folk dont tell them what we want and what to do ,Its the big folk that tell the little folk how the system is going to be.voting just gives the little folk an illusion of some power and that their voice ''the vote'' matters and is being heard..I dont think the uk is going to leave the eu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolfa Posted May 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 Yes I understood what you meant from your little picture, I was just highlighting (once again) that you are a f**kwit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Dave Anscombe said: Hi jolfa I lost faith in this system along time ago ,politics is big money ,Big money games with big players ,we the little folk dont tell them what we want and what to do ,Its the big folk that tell the little folk how the system is going to be.voting just gives the little folk an illusion of some power and that their voice ''the vote'' matters and is being heard..I dont think the uk is going to leave the eu What's stopping you running for mp ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 28 minutes ago, manuel said: What's stopping you running for mp ? About 98 IQ points and a drugs test. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Harrison Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 I don't know what's more futile, voting for politicians or replying to Dave Anscombe... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Harrison Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 Addendum to the above: 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadManMike Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 Holy shit, it's been a while, haha! Quick, lock the thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted May 30, 2017 Report Share Posted May 30, 2017 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40090520 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolfa Posted May 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 (edited) In Corbyn news, the man was asked to give a specific figure on one of many policies, which he wished to give a specific answer to. Whilst accessing files to give a precise figure the leader was shot down for not knowing every exact figure for any given policy off the top of his head. Big news, BBC! Meanwhile, the Naylor Report, but don't worry about that! Edited May 31, 2017 by Jolfa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/ has now been updated for 2017. Do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted May 31, 2017 Report Share Posted May 31, 2017 50 minutes ago, Jolfa said: In Corbyn news, the man was asked to give a specific figure on one of many policies, which he wished to give a specific answer to. Whilst accessing files to give a precise figure the leader was shot down for not knowing every exact figure for any given policy off the top of his head. Big news, BBC! Meanwhile, the Naylor Report, but don't worry about that! A lot of the guys with that was that they were "launching" the policy that day and after the Diane Abbott situation they should have had fairly significant details like the cost of the thing pretty well in mind. It's not like he was asked for the protected costs of the scheme in Yorkshire alone for a 30 month period starting Q3 2018. I appreciate he wanted to give an accurate figure, but that's the headline number and one he should rightly be expected to know. The fact he didn't even have it quickly accessible is a bit shit really. Naylor Report is just as much of a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 3, 2017 Report Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) since labour is gaining in the polls, just a veeery broad and naive question from a curious outsider: if labour were to win, would there be a chance that they would try to (somehow) reverse the brexit decision? Edited June 3, 2017 by jeff costello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolfa Posted June 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2017 Pretty much no chance, that's what the people voted for, that's what the people get... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 3, 2017 Report Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jolfa said: Pretty much no chance, that's what the people voted for, that's what the people get... i know the decision's not reversible. but if labour would win the election with an ostensive pro-EU position things would still be a bit different. there's always some wiggle room. (but i think i read somewhere a while ago that Corbyn isn't pro-EU either) edit: just read this and point 4 answered my question: http://www.politico.eu/article/8-ways-jeremy-corbyn-is-winning/ Edited June 3, 2017 by jeff costello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Anscombe Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 On 5/30/2017 at 8:37 PM, Jolfa said: Yes I understood what you meant from your little picture, I was just highlighting (once again) that you are a f**kwit. Much love bruddah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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