zoster Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 Hey all, Since riders come in all sorts of sizes and preferences, I was wondering why nobody bothers to come up with 20" or 22" street-trials bikes. ( yes, there are some 22" rims and tires on the market - https://www.facebook.com/22inchbmx/?fref=ts ) It should be flickier for everyone and more comfortable for shorter riders, so why stick to 24" only? PS: i know there is the 20" inspired, but I mean bikes meant for adults PPS: what would be the wheelbase of a standard street 20.75 top tube bmx setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studi Posted October 17, 2016 Report Share Posted October 17, 2016 http://www.tribalzine.com/?Flipp-introducing-the-Alias-20-1 Marino can make them as well. http://marinobike.com/order-form/ however, at only 250$ for a custom frame i doubt the tubes are double butted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigjames Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 Alias? Ridden by that not very well known 20" brakeless street beast Flipp.... http://www.tartybikes.co.uk/20_inch_frames/alias_201_with_headset/c36p13201.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoster Posted October 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 Didn;t know about this frame (although i know Flipps videos and his riding is amazing), but I don't really consider this a "proper" street-trials bike, having no seat, sporting a 73 head angle aso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperclip Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 4 hours ago, zoster said: Didn;t know about this frame (although i know Flipps videos and his riding is amazing), but I don't really consider this a "proper" street-trials bike, having no seat, sporting a 73 head angle aso. It's painful to read you say this highlighted point you made. Street trials geo's come in a pretty wide range to suit different riders, such as a Inspired Skye, TMS Combo, Ozonys range all suit shorter riders with a shorter reach. Then the Foreplay, TMS Combo L and Ozonys Smith all suit with a medium reach for riders and Finally the Arcade and TMS Champagn suit taller guys. Not to mention Marino can make you anything you like. Then in terms of geo a head angle in any of the above frames varies from 71.5 (Ozonys Styl)- 72 (Foreplay) upto 74.5 (Arcade). When you say "Street trials" do you just mean BMX? You're posting a question as to why companies are using a set wheel size in a sport that is minuscule compared to BMX. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigjames Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 Because Color street..... WB 950 mm / BB + 80mm / EN 345 mm / 74.5 ° ... has a seat, definitely more street than an Alias. I think the reason that they don't exist is because it's such a niche type of bike in an incredibly small market. Why would a manufacturer commit to a production run if there just aren't the buyers out there? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 That entire market is basically Nick Cooke. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperclip Posted October 18, 2016 Report Share Posted October 18, 2016 1 hour ago, Luke Rainbird said: That entire market is basically Nick Cooke. The Vasha video on this was cool as but yeah this market easily got taken over by Alias now. Agreed with Craig my last point was the Market being so small for Trials its a huge risk for not really any gain especially with 22" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studi Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Trials stems are wierd... I see what you are saying with the HT angle... i think the 20" bikes would suit a taller steerer and a short bmx style bar. Having your steerer(bars) be a 4" radius from stem or so away from the stem does compromise certain moves and more so handling in general. A steeper steerer and shorter stem will defiantly give you what you are looking for. Ive always seen inspired bikes as 24'' bmx bikes with disc brake mounts so maybe try a bmx geo(with slightly higher bb) with postmount tabs from marino and see how it feels. I feel like the stem / bar is really what needs to be figured out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aener Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 I've flirted with the idea of a BMX bar and stem, but to get the bars in the right place for the kind of riding I like to do it would mean lengthening the wheelbase quite a bit, even if it simultaneously stepped up to a 75°HA. Maybe at some point in the future, but I'm also a big fan of the upsweep given by trials handlebars. The most I've found in BMX bars is 4-5°. I think it would be cool to have a "normal looking bike" so people wouldn't give you loads of grief at skateparks etc. but it's a lot of effort to go to just for that, especially when it risks alienating the trials-following in terms of image. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) would bmx-bars really be strong enough? can they handle the torque? it's quite a bit of leverage on there. it's probably not a problem for brakeless, but are bmx-bars really suited for landing to-fronts with locked brake? Edited October 19, 2016 by jeff costello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamKidney Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, jeff costello said: would bmx-bars really be strong enough? can they handle the torque? it's quite a bit of leverage on there. it's probably not a problem for brakeless, but are bmx-bars really suited for landing to-fronts with locked brake? Given some of the shit the top bmx riders give them I think they would be up to the job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 14 minutes ago, SamKidney said: Given some of the shit the top bmx riders give them I think they would be up to the job. i'd like to think that too. but on the other hand bmx stuff is not really designed for strong brake forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Not sure if trolling. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamKidney Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 Sticking a landing off the likes of El Toro or some mad shit akin to what Sean Burns throws out is enough to convince me haha. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 3 hours ago, Mark W said: Not sure if trolling. me? i'm not. looking at bmx bars, there's like 25cm of rise (opposed to like 5 or 7 on a trials setup), i'm really just whether the stem clamp can this much extra torque from the leverage with trials typic moves. (i'm not saying the bmx parts are worse material-wise in any way, just designed for something different) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoster Posted October 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) On 10/18/2016 at 6:07 PM, Paperclip said: It's painful to read you say this highlighted point you made. Street trials geo's come in a pretty wide range to suit different riders, such as a Inspired Skye, TMS Combo, Ozonys range all suit shorter riders with a shorter reach. Then the Foreplay, TMS Combo L and Ozonys Smith all suit with a medium reach for riders and Finally the Arcade and TMS Champagn suit taller guys. Not to mention Marino can make you anything you like. Then in terms of geo a head angle in any of the above frames varies from 71.5 (Ozonys Styl)- 72 (Foreplay) upto 74.5 (Arcade). When you say "Street trials" do you just mean BMX? You're posting a question as to why companies are using a set wheel size in a sport that is minuscule compared to BMX. studi pretty much answered for me: 17 hours ago, studi said: Trials stems are wierd... I see what you are saying with the HT angle... i think the 20" bikes would suit a taller steerer and a short bmx style bar. Having your steerer(bars) be a 4" radius from stem or so away from the stem does compromise certain moves and more so handling in general. A steeper steerer and shorter stem will defiantly give you what you are looking for. Ive always seen inspired bikes as 24'' bmx bikes with disc brake mounts so maybe try a bmx geo(with slightly higher bb) with postmount tabs from marino and see how it feels. I feel like the stem / bar is really what needs to be figured out. This being said, it's nice to see frames like the alias and because (although i don't see how one could actually use that seat in any way), but they still lean towards a mod bike, whereas i would be looking more for something closer to a bmx. Basically an arcade with smaller wheels and wheelbase and probably a crossbar to mediate the front end. ps: about how long are wheelbases for regular street bmx bikes (say something that sports a 20.75 tt)? Thanks for all the replies, sorry i got back this late! Edited October 19, 2016 by zoster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyT Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 (edited) Trials force: A 7 foot gap to front with brakes locked is as brutal as a warm piece of butter Bmx: a two story 360 drop to flat concrete is like a hard piece week old rye bread. I think bmx products all around are way way way beefier than trials products..they used to also be heavy as shit. I vote vote getting flip on a normal looking seated bike with bmx bars also jeff, you've proven time and time again to have hints of clinical retardation. It's science, can't argue with the facts. Edited October 19, 2016 by AndyT 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoster Posted October 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 1 minute ago, AndyT said: Trials force: A 7 foot gap to front with brakes locked is as brutal as a warm piece of butter Bmg: a two story 360 drop to flat concrete is like a hard piece week old rye bread. Although I agree bmx parts in general are made for more abuse than trials ones, regarding the bar setup, it should also count how the force is applied. Bmx is more vertially and for gaps to front and whatnot is more horizontally so the bar might slip in the stem since there is a much larger lever arm (although i doubt it would be a problem) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperclip Posted October 19, 2016 Report Share Posted October 19, 2016 I agree that a shorter stem and bar would be cool to see on the 20" Alias but again it becomes another issue on what people want. Flipp could run a shorter stem with Arcade bars but he more than likely chose not to do this because he maybe doesn't like the geo of the bars. Though for any other riders it is one option. Also relating back to a head angle you have to contemplate moves like hooks and taps and going to front. All these are varied on the rider but gaps to front generally the slacker head angle helps. I am not sure how this would relate to hooks I remember being better at hooks with a steeper head angle but going to steep could knock those back. Taps are nicer with slacker head angle also. You have to keep in the back of your mind that the Trials is the majority part of the sport and the BMX influenced areas (especially for the most popular riders) just contributes to their lines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aener Posted October 21, 2016 Report Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) Arcade bars aren't a big enough rise-difference that I'd use a shorter stem, and you'd have to give me a damned strong incentive to start using them If your hands are in the same position relative to the front axle, the HA won't mean diddly on something going in a straight line. The extra leverage provided by a goose-neck stem might aid holding the bars steady under high torques, but in terms of body positioning over the bars I'd imagine it largely irrelevant. The difference would come in when steering etc. I'd be open to trying it - blending in a bit more can never hurt! - but I'm pretty content with how it is right now. Developing new parts is expensive, and there's very little money in trials. I very nearly built one like this up when I was making my own, but ran out of money and couldn't afford an extra tubeset. Edited October 21, 2016 by aener Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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