Tyke trial...has it any future.

[bing]

11 hours ago, Ross McArthur said:

I for one would like to see a Team Toast comp edit.

Banging Techo tunes (no euro), explosions when kids land on bash plates, dolla signs on medals, gangsta glasses and joints on pushy parents faces when observers don't notice dabs, random interviews with stupid questions...

Its all memes. I don't know why I like it but I do.

 

That one with the bmx rider, with a magura 'chirp' everytime he did something made me laugh like hell

[Ross McArthur]

See, fun for all the family!

[BJ.]

When is the next competition anyway? 

[kevind]

23 hours ago, Mark W said:

Point 1 Who is Sean?

Point 2 Agree, It  needs to be at the correct events with bikes as the main focus (Cream of the Croft was an Family Enduro weekend.) Fort William on the other hand is in my opinion never attracted anybody but that's for another discussion) I agree that BMX is more appealing to kids and probably to watch, and anybody that can ride a bike can get around (will not win but can achieve a race finish). Where as trials needs a lot of work to a new rider to even get through a section. This is another area I think we can improve on and will be easier when we are not on the side of a windswept hillside? We have two multi discipline bike clubs up here that are doing trials evenings in a barn every week with fathers helping, that's where all my new riders are coming from.  I believe that kids XC races now have skill comps to get there start orders and time  handicaps?  Open trial I cant remember any thing about it, but if it worked then perhaps it should be discussed at club level. Although the British comps should stay as a comp.

Point 3 We have no chance then, unless we get a big minority group entries, then they will throw money at us. I understand that there is Sport Scotland funding available when I was involved with another funded company and we were in discussions to run a international trial. That venue is now lost due to a change of management, I'm not bitter that I spent two weeks building sections with two paid for 30 ton 360 machines and 900 ton of free grippy rock, at the best venue with hotel, offices, camp site, swimming, climbing, mountain biking and a restaurant/bar next to the sections. Oh well.

Point 4 I know, but that's demos, they give the public no image of what comp trials is about. I don't have a problem with that as pure trials demos seem to be dying, with the teams pulling in jump riders and other disciplines.Even seatless bikes seem to be moving onto bikes with token seats.  Its a business and businesses have to evolve, good luck to them  Compression tights on a cold day for a rider are the best thing to ware, It's only the British small minded mentality, that its my way and ever body else is wrong. How many other sports ware compression tights and don't get slagged for it. Two hours in the pissin rain and snow on a rugby field training through out the winter and these guys ware them to keep muscles warm, but I bet TT would have nothing to say to half a dozen 16/17 stone 16 year olds about it. (and no they are't fat just enormous) I have one that's eating me out of house and home.

Here are lots of positive points that we can discuss, we need perhaps everybody to sit down at the BTF  AGM this year (not just the club representatives) for an extra day and thrash this out, It seems to be bucking the trend up here because of one mans effort and enthusiasm. It has re enthused me as you can probably see here. If Barbara still wants to be involved with trials then lets get discussion points sent in for it and every body can attend. ( that wants to help set  up or what ever, if you are not willing to help then you have no opinion at this stage)  I will happily chair it as I am Scottish enough to say what needs to be said!! Lets not do it at the dark star as I just want to punch all these smug tossers walking around the place, lets do it where there is somewhere to ride all day while the people that want to stand up and push this sport into a NEW  era can let their kids ride with mates and some older lads to look after the younger ones. Central located like Shipley with somewhere warm to meet?

We have the offer of a 20 bedroom house and estate (free) with the best trials terrain in the world, but its a two hour drive north of Fort William in October if anyone want a trials holiday? Sorry Graham.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2016 by kevind

[kevind]

11 hours ago, Ross McArthur said:

See, fun for all the family!

Just like a finger of fudge. Yeah you youngsters will need to all look it up. Its not what you perverts think, it was a real advert back in the day.

Edited August 24, 2016 by kevind

[TykeTrial]

Dear All

It has been both interesting and somewhat dissapointing to read some of the comments on this topic.

Firstly, i would like to clarify that although Barbara Wright has resigned from TykeTrial, she is still (as far as we are aware) the Administrator of the BikeTrial UK Federation.

It would be far more beneficial if people stopped complaining about how things are run, and got involved with clubs to help and if they feel necessary suggest changes.

As far as TykeTrial is concerned, we have attached the latest update to this post.

TykeTrial Update.pdf

[kevind]

On 23/08/2016 at 8:41 AM, Mark W said:

Well there is a Scottish round just over the border 2nd October and all are welcome.

Interesting as the topic has moved to a more positive discussion, it has ground to a halt. That kinda sums it up I think?

 

 

 

 

 

[Mark W]

@kevind

Point 1 Who is Sean?

Sean Putt - he's a rider from Ireland who ran a comp over there earlier this year, and was initially supposed to be doing media/website/promo type stuff for the Biketrial Federation.  Having heard more about this, it turns out that never materialised and it's been Barbara who's done everything.

Point 2 Agree, It  needs to be at the correct events with bikes as the main focus (Cream of the Croft was an Family Enduro weekend.) Fort William on the other hand is in my opinion never attracted anybody but that's for another discussion) I agree that BMX is more appealing to kids and probably to watch, and anybody that can ride a bike can get around (will not win but can achieve a race finish). Where as trials needs a lot of work to a new rider to even get through a section. This is another area I think we can improve on and will be easier when we are not on the side of a windswept hillside? We have two multi discipline bike clubs up here that are doing trials evenings in a barn every week with fathers helping, that's where all my new riders are coming from.  I believe that kids XC races now have skill comps to get there start orders and time  handicaps?  Open trial I cant remember any thing about it, but if it worked then perhaps it should be discussed at club level. Although the British comps should stay as a comp.

Part of the Open Trial was trying to do things differently to normal, and that included providing some media coverage of an event:

 

That covers the format, some of the riding and then feedback from riders and observers.  There was also feedback gathered after the event too that isn't featured in this video.  That same format was also successfully used at Tarty Days too which resulted in an interesting mix of people riding, and an interesting mix of ways of getting through sections (so going for time, or going for a few harder gates, or whichever that rider preferred).

Regarding your "windswept hillside" thing, it seems like there's no issue in the motorbike trials scene from what I can tell?  A quick look at TrialsCentral shows a whole range of events from loads of clubs, aimed at all different levels of rider - almost all of them are on "windswept hillsides" too.

 

Point 3 We have no chance then, unless we get a big minority group entries, then they will throw money at us...

I'm not sure I fully agree with that.  I thought there was some chat about BC not supporting trials due to BTF running at a surplus and not needing help?  To me, it would make sense to reinvest that money into trials.  If the infrastructure can be improved, and trials have a more professional front, then it's going to make it a lot more appealing for them to back.  At the moment it would probably be difficult for them to know what that money was really going into due to the coverage of trials events in the UK being pretty fractured.  It wouldn't take much to have a much more pro look to how things are done, which would also make the admin side of things a lot easier too.  For example:

- All clubs set up a dedicated Gmail account, with a name that's related to the club.  So, for example, if you're doing it for the Scottish Bike Trial Club you could go for "sbtc@gmail.com" or something like that.  Similarly, everyone else could do the same.  You could, if you wanted, use the biketrialuk.co.uk domain to have the Gmail part hidden too, so it would mean that people could e-mail "sbtc@biketrialuk.co.uk" and get through to you.  If all clubs do that, it means getting in touch with people is a lot easier, and it also presents a more cohesive, united front.

- That use of a Gmail account also gives you access to Google Drive.  Drive allows you to share documents (so you could have a more pro looking entry form that was accessible to all clubs for riders to use), spreadsheets/databases (so it'd be possible to have a consistent results sheet produced after each trial, rather than the fairly random, often hard to understand ones that come out now), photos and videos (so it'd be possible to pool all the media from different rounds, meaning that whoever's updating the BTF website has all of that ready to go), and so on.

Stuff like that isn't fun, it isn't interesting, but it is required if trials is going to be more professional looking in how things are done.  It would take a little bit of time to set up (although not that much, setting up a Gmail account is super easy, creating the entry form/results stuff wouldn't be hard and crucially those are things that would only need to be done once, but would allow you to reap the rewards of the easier, more efficient use of your time later), but would be a big improvement over the current system.  

Tying that in with the thing about the BTF budget, something that worked well at the Open Trial was the results being updated at the time.  It's possible to do that offline, so if you had the comp results sheet downloaded onto a tablet or laptop, you could update the results during the day, then you've instantly got the results ready to go both for the riders on the day, but also to put online at a later date.  If BTF was able to provide the clubs involved with a cheap, basic tablet, then that can be used to do that, and it would also allow easier entry on the day as someone could just use the tablet to enter all their info into the entry form (which again would be easily accessible by using Drive or by having it downloaded) and you'd have it saved away for future use.

One other benefit of Drive is that you can create separate folders within it, which anyone can view, so rather than having to necessarily do a separate update of the BTF website each time an event is done, a permanent link could be left to that folder so people could just go there and have all the results from all the rounds there.  As a quick example, if you click here you'll see an example folder I just knocked up: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-fMzJtpBVOxeDd5WTlSYklabGc&usp=sharing

Point 4 I know, but that's demos, they give the public no image of what comp trials is about. I don't have a problem with that as pure trials demos seem to be dying, with the teams pulling in jump riders and other disciplines.Even seatless bikes seem to be moving onto bikes with token seats.  Its a business and businesses have to evolve, good luck to them  

From what I've heard from multiple demo teams, some teams are slashing the prices they charge for events and it's basically become a race to the bottom.  If a team can demonstrate they can offer better value by appealing to more people, that's more likely to get them an event rather than just going "I'll do the same thing as everyone else, but £50 cheaper".  Adding value is a sustainable model for the future, whereas if you're slashing your costs just to undercut everyone else, you're screwing yourself long term because you're not going to be making enough money to be able to keep doing what you're doing, but crucially you won't be making money to update your rig, get a new website, do more promo work, etc.  

Compression tights on a cold day for a rider are the best thing to ware, It's only the British small minded mentality, that its my way and ever body else is wrong. How many other sports ware compression tights and don't get slagged for it. Two hours in the pissin rain and snow on a rugby field training through out the winter and these guys ware them to keep muscles warm, but I bet TT would have nothing to say to half a dozen 16/17 stone 16 year olds about it. (and no they are't fat just enormous) I have one that's eating me out of house and home.

The one I saw was on what appeared to be a bright, hot, sunny day.  I don't think its tights people have a problem with, I think it's just the look of people only wearing a pair of compression tights.  How many of your rugby friends wouldn't go out wearing their jersey and shorts, but just some Skinz?  That's beside the point though anyways...

Here are lots of positive points that we can discuss, we need perhaps everybody to sit down at the BTF  AGM this year (not just the club representatives) for an extra day and thrash this out, It seems to be bucking the trend up here because of one mans effort and enthusiasm. It has re enthused me as you can probably see here. If Barbara still wants to be involved with trials then lets get discussion points sent in for it and every body can attend. ( that wants to help set  up or what ever, if you are not willing to help then you have no opinion at this stage)  I will happily chair it as I am Scottish enough to say what needs to be said!

I don't think it's a case of "saying what needs to be said".  Part of the problem from the outside looking in is that the comp scene has been operating as what's basically an echo chamber for the most part.  As I was saying at the last AGM, instead of guessing what riders want, why not ask them?  Running that same survey we did before annually would be useful as it will give feedback on what is/isn't working, what people think could be done to change it and so on.  Competitions are a product you're selling to a customer, and no-one would release a new product onto a market without doing product and market research first.

Fundamentally, I don't see much realistically changing for the foreseeable future just because comps in the UK are run to be an approximation of the BIU/UCI rounds which are the pinnacle that comp riders are going to be aiming for.  While that's the case, not much can really be done to change how things work.  All that can be done is changing the peripheral stuff to make it better, and as I mentioned up there that's things like infrastructure, maybe investing some of the money into getting a more polished website created (there are plenty of alternatives for free website design/templates out there that could be used too), and so on.  

Making it easier to get information about comps (I've spoken to plenty of people on the phone who've said they've struggled to find out the info they wanted to know online, which was partially why we created our comp guide video a while back), and then removing the barriers for people getting involved such as making it easier to enter and maybe mixing up the venues will help.  I can't remember the specifics from the last survey, but they seemed to be the sticking points for people so it would make sense to address that.

To that end, I'd also recommend firing off a similar survey again this year, but before the AGM so the information can be acted upon then.  Because of the timings of things at the previous one it meant that it was a bit like putting the cart in front of the horse as far as that went, so if it'd be possible to get the survey done first I think it'd be possible to gain a lot of useful info that could provide some signposts for which direction to try and take things in in future.

[isitafox]

I've been told by someone who works at BC (there's a lot of them living in the High Peak) that they're not interested in supporting trials as it isn't exciting enough for people to watch therefore wouldn't get enough interest to justify them putting the money in which to me is a load of bollocks. I'd much rather sit and watch a pro trials comp than a mass of lycra clad roadies not really doing anything other than riding down the road!

[Mark W]

Just going back to what I mentioned about Drive before - they also have a new thing called "Forms" where you can... er... create forms, and gather info that way.  I assume this means that you could probably get an actual entry form done that way if you wanted, but it'd be another way of getting rider feedback.  I just did a simple, one question one as a tester: https://goo.gl/forms/trWjlR2l5t6pSjOj2

[kevind]

Wow,

Just had to take a breath now.

Isitafox. They are talking bollocks. the official line as far as I know is its not an Olympic sport so that I believe is there legal stand point. But then neither is Speedway or Downhill? they even withdrew the team managers funding two years ago. Barry Gowthorpe has spoken with them over the last few years and has got no where. They cant even supply THEIR kit to the trials team properly each year and that's all they have to do. Don't get me started on how bad mannered and ignorant they are towards the trials riders when you get to the comps.  I've seen it first hand and have told them. Don't have the decency to even apologies.

Mark lots of great points. But on a personal point I spend a great deal of time, money and effort to keep the Scottish club running and I only do it because of my enjoyment of it all. I am lucky enough to work for myself and can afford the time and cost, but I have a business to run, a house and a family and very occasionally a day to myself! I dislike social media but see its uses, so therefore I have no interest in it. So someone else needs to do it all or as in the last six years it doesn't get done, I cant do everything and even hate doing all the paperwork around each event, but my wife does help a lot with that. (this is not a moan just a statement of facts) If everybody did a little then perhaps thing may change, but as I have stated over the last 30+ years of doing club work its always just the few and a lot of talkers and whiners. Not the case up here, but as it grows it may turn into whats happened in Tykes? ( I have been studying dictatorship in my spare time and so it shouldn't)

BTF doesn't have the finances especially now as entries are at an all time low. But even if it did they cant even get someone to volunteer to do the website, which probably wouldn't take to much time each year. Ben S did a great job, but his life changed and he stopped riding and couldn't offer the service he gave it over the years.

The Scottish club has always had an email address biketrial@tiscali.co.uk. I have asked since the club started for someone with an interest and some knowledge to do a website. still nothing.

Motorbike trials need bigger venues, different type of terrain and make noise so your point is perhaps not like for like with cycle trials. I have done motor trials since I was 14 on and off so do have a valued interest in both. Land is also becoming an issue for moto trials.

As for demos, i run a business and understand your points. maybe close this point for here. But yes the rugby boys do ware clothing on top as  I thought most would do, Moto trials riders get away with it and I don't see the forums burning, only opinionated street riders, who as far as I can see have their own dress code but I don't have an opinion on that.

Bike trials is a volunteer run club and you do make it sound like its running a business in your last point. The survey was done and I don,t know what the uptake was but I bet it wouldn't have been much if TB hadn't been generous enough to offer an incentive. I even remember someone on here complaining about it being not worth his time to fill the form out. It is a club and as such everybody should have their say, but as we have seen cant even be bothered to do that. I have never had this situation in any other club I have been in, it maybe the a sign of the times but I doubt it. The few will plod on and with the help of club members adapt trails into the future. I/we are trying up here and if it works it works, if it doesn't then at least we tried. I will find something else to help with or maybe I have been wrong all those years take up watching more telly and drink more, ignore my kids, maybe even golf. Nah just joking.

[ItsMatt]

On 23/08/2016 at 8:50 AM, Ross McArthur said:

I for one would like to see a Team Toast comp edit.

You're in luck, comp/demo video out soon. although its not for toast I will be doing my own thing when the 'real' edit is finished.

[kevind]

Just watched the video on the open trial. Great fun it looked. Is there a reason it hasn't happened again. Maybe it needs to be run at a bigger cycling event, and that would give access to much more people on different bikes. We have been asked to run comps at bike  festivals next year, maybe just do it in that format as an trial and see what happens.

[kevind]

3 minutes ago, ItsMatt said:

You're in luck, comp/demo video out soon. although its not for toast I will be doing my own thing when the 'real' edit is finished.

Got your lycra on?

[Ross McArthur]

2 minutes ago, kevind said:

Got your lycra on?

Now now Kev, baiting is against the forum rules. Play nice.

[ItsMatt]

1 minute ago, kevind said:

Got your lycra on?

No but Kenny belay has a jersey on, might be a few compression shots on if thats what gets you going.

[Mark W]

But on a personal point I spend a great deal of time, money and effort to keep the Scottish club running and I only do it because of my enjoyment of it all. I am lucky enough to work for myself and can afford the time and cost, but I have a business to run, a house and a family and very occasionally a day to myself! I dislike social media but see its uses, so therefore I have no interest in it. So someone else needs to do it all or as in the last six years it doesn't get done, I cant do everything and even hate doing all the paperwork around each event, but my wife does help a lot with that.

That's precisely why I suggested that stuff about Drive though.  It's a compound saving of time.  As you run a business I'm sure you're aware that efficiency is key to making things work, and that's what that offers.  It would take less than ten minutes at most to sort out, but from that point on would save you a lot of time in the future, and would mean that there wouldn't need to be any website updates or anything like that for results.  Once you'd got the comp results collated, they'd instantly be visible to anyone who had the link (so either the BTF website, or wherever else you might have posted it).  You're saving all that time f**king around with that not just once, but for every comp you do again.  You could even make it so you had online/paperless comp entries that you didn't have to do anything with, they'd just be there as a full list of who was/wasn't riding for you readily to hand.

BTF doesn't have the finances especially now as entries are at an all time low. But even if it did they cant even get someone to volunteer to do the website, which probably wouldn't take to much time each year. Ben S did a great job, but his life changed and he stopped riding and couldn't offer the service he gave it over the years.

From looking at the accounts before it seemed there was a 'rainy day' fund put to one side.  How much wetter does it need to get?

The Scottish club has always had an email address biketrial@tiscali.co.uk. I have asked since the club started for someone with an interest and some knowledge to do a website. still nothing.

I'm well aware of that, it was the one that kept coming up as "Mail not delivered to: ______" from that group e-mail conversation that was going on before the AGM My point before was that that e-mail address doesn't really have anything that implicitly ties it to the SBTC.  If each club had an easily accessible e-mail address, and if they all appeared to be worked out together in a cohesive way, it would give trials clubs in the UK a way more united front that would make it appear that everyone actually spoke to each other and shared ideas, rather than just being a disparate group of people here and there.  To external bodies that's going to be a much more attractive proposition to invest in.

Motorbike trials need bigger venues, different type of terrain and make noise so your point is perhaps not like for like with cycle trials. I have done motor trials since I was 14 on and off so do have a valued interest in both. Land is also becoming an issue for moto trials.

You missed my point - they haven't got a problem with entries and people getting into it, so it seems that "windswept hillsides" aren't necessarily a bar to people participating in something.

As for demos, i run a business and understand your points. maybe close this point for here. But yes the rugby boys do ware clothing on top as  I thought most would do, Moto trials riders get away with it and I don't see the forums burning, only opinionated street riders, who as far as I can see have their own dress code but I don't have an opinion on that.

Confirmation bias.  I've seen plenty of other non-street riders chat shit about it too.  Just look at the reaction Giaco got for his skinsuit a little while back.  Ballerinas wear tutus but I don't think that people would just accept trials riders wearing them simply because it was the norm in ballet circles.

Bike trials is a volunteer run club and you do make it sound like its running a business in your last point.

Again, missed my point.  As an aside, it is a business.  You're offering a service that people are paying for which sounds pretty 'businessy' to me?  I'm not implying it's a get-rich-quick scheme, but it is a business.

My point there though was just that researching to find out what the end user/participants want is a standard way of doing things, and is what gets results.  Trials has been run in a closed loop for a long time now and numbers are declining, so I can't see how it doesn't make sense to try and reach out to the people who are involved or who have chosen to no longer be involved to find out why, rather than guessing?  You keep mentioning about your time, but surely your time is better spent by people firing answers back to a survey giving you what you need to know rather than just speculating about things and hoping it sticks?

The survey was done and I don,t know what the uptake was but I bet it wouldn't have been much if TB hadn't been generous enough to offer an incentive. I even remember someone on here complaining about it being not worth his time to fill the form out. It is a club and as such everybody should have their say, but as we have seen cant even be bothered to do that.

That one person was an outlier, and got massively called out for having that opinion.  There were a lot of replies, and there was a lot of useful info in there.  People did have their say because they were given a clear opportunity to do so.  That's why I suggested trying to do it again, but this time before the AGM so the info can be acted upon, rather than after and just have it sitting on a website somewhere.

[kevind]

7 hours ago, Mark W said:

 

 

That's precisely why I suggested that stuff about Drive though.  It's a compound saving of time.  As you run a business I'm sure you're aware that efficiency is key to making things work, and that's what that offers.  It would take less than ten minutes at most to sort out, but from that point on would save you a lot of time in the future, and would mean that there wouldn't need to be any website updates or anything like that for results.  Once you'd got the comp results collated, they'd instantly be visible to anyone who had the link (so either the BTF website, or wherever else you might have posted it).  You're saving all that time f**king around with that not just once, but for every comp you do again.  You could even make it so you had online/paperless comp entries that you didn't have to do anything with, they'd just be there as a full list of who was/wasn't riding for you readily to hand.

Would it be better if someone did a template system then gave it to the clubs, then the four left and the new ones coming are all the same?

 

From looking at the accounts before it seemed there was a 'rainy day' fund put to one side.  How much wetter does it need to get?

 

Its at SEPA flood level, but i will believe that it can be turned around.

I'm well aware of that, it was the one that kept coming up as "Mail not delivered to: ______" from that group e-mail conversation that was going on before the AGM My point before was that that e-mail address doesn't really have anything that implicitly ties it to the SBTC.  If each club had an easily accessible e-mail address, and if they all appeared to be worked out together in a cohesive way, it would give trials clubs in the UK a way more united front that would make it appear that everyone actually spoke to each other and shared ideas, rather than just being a disparate group of people here and there.  To external bodies that's going to be a much more attractive proposition to invest in.

That was just a something on tiscalis side as it works all good now. Although I need another clear out. I do get your point though about the SBTC in the address. But Again see previous point.

 

You missed my point - they haven't got a problem with entries and people getting into it, so it seems that "windswept hillsides" aren't necessarily a bar to people participating in something.

 

Perhaps not and it has been my argument all along that other bike sports are not going down due to location, travel or money. (look at enduro's and BMX) I still say they need different requirements. It was a suggestion of using better facilities/locations to HELP . Just a simple thing like a toilet and even somewhere to sit out of the rain. ie Bob Macgregor that I use. still in the middle of no where and windswept at times but it can make  much easier. I think we agree to disagree on this one. Close?

Confirmation bias.  I've seen plenty of other non-street riders chat shit about it too.  Just look at the reaction Giaco got for his skinsuit a little while back.  Ballerinas wear tutus but I don't think that people would just accept trials riders wearing them simply because it was the norm in ballet circles.

Giaco looked good in his skin tight suit, just needed a tutu to set it off. Close this one as well, anybody can ware what they want at my trials and have done and have raised a few laughs along the way. 

 

Again, missed my point.  As an aside, it is a business.  You're offering a service that people are paying for which sounds pretty 'businessy' to me?  I'm not implying it's a get-rich-quick scheme, but it is a business.

My point there though was just that researching to find out what the end user/participants want is a standard way of doing things, and is what gets results.  Trials has been run in a closed loop for a long time now and numbers are declining, so I can't see how it doesn't make sense to try and reach out to the people who are involved or who have chosen to no longer be involved to find out why, rather than guessing?  You keep mentioning about your time, but surely your time is better spent by people firing answers back to a survey giving you what you need to know rather than just speculating about things and hoping it sticks?

Its a volunteer sport and the entry fees just cover costs and if I added my own personal costs, Diesel and accommodation then it would make a loss. If I agree with your point then I would need to double or triple the entry fees. Now I know the £10 is on the cheap side now a days and maybe as part of the poll, ask if the entry fees can go up.

Both types of trials is hindered by the cheap mentality. Moto trials entries are similar to bike trials. But they have no problem with paying a huge amount more to enter an Enduro or downhill comp. In all my years I have never understood that.

There would need to be a justification for it. See my previous point about toilets etc. 

 

 

That one person was an outlier, and got massively called out for having that opinion.  There were a lot of replies, and there was a lot of useful info in there.  People did have their say because they were given a clear opportunity to do so.  That's why I suggested trying to do it again, but this time before the AGM so the info can be acted upon, rather than after and just have it sitting on a website somewhere.

Then I agree totally and it needs to be done again and in a suitable time before the AGM so points can be discussed acted upon.

Thanks for adding to this discussion, but why is there only a few? I think to an outsider both types of trials are not good viewing because they are not racing, don't have speed or an ( except a trials riders view) element of danger. Now as a totally biased opinion, the game of personal chess to get from start to finish is what it was always about for me and now a days to watch  a kid succeed at that is just wonderful whether they get it or not. I love watching Toni Bou and Co and Jack Carthy and Co do their thing, it never gets old for me as I understand what that takes, but it doesn't to someone who hasn't and that is an age old trials problem. Point is that no matter how popular  the Sheffield indoor world round is I would bet my house that 90+% of the audience are trials riders and not trials fans like other types of motorsport. It will never be a mainstream sport (just look at BC view on it) but changing it from a windswept hillside to a tag on event to bigger cycling festivals is in my humble opinion the way forward. I personally like windswept hill sides. They are also much easier to organise! One day set up as opposed to ten days for Fort William and Cream of the Croft. This was not the reason it did not run this year before comments are made.

 

[kevind]

11 hours ago, Ross McArthur said:

Now now Kev, baiting is against the forum rules. Play nice.

He started it in a playground voice. (just a joke) What is happening to you Ross, please not maturing? Oh sh*t is that baiting again.

I know and please accept my apology.  Anybody is welcome to a comp dressed how they like and have done over the years. We still have the pics of the wife beaters and the nipple incident between Cammy and Stuart. It was  for a bit of a laugh but TT has been the better man not to take the bait. So again sorry and we are all good? 

 

[JD™]

As an outsider reading this conversation, it's pretty painful to watch.

I have volunteered in many organisations over the years, and the best ones are always the ones which are run as businesses. Importantly, as Mark mentioned, that doesn't mean in the "making money" sense – it means in the "how do we best provide for our target market with the resources at our disposal" sense. Everything that Mark has mentioned has been a good idea, but I feel maybe it needs someone to step up and implement both the resources and the 'training' needed to make sure those resources are used.

There's a danger in volunteer organisations that the people involved actually do it because they love telling people how busy they are. Don't be those people, because being busy is not smart. If the UK trials scene decides they want to be less busy and more effective, then it has a very healthy future. If not, it probably doesn't. 

The first step, as Mark's already said, is to quit guessing what your target market want and ask them. Then, most importantly, listen to the answers and act on them. It doesn't matter if you think it's stupid, just do it. Then start implementing centralised resources to improve both efficiency (in both time and money) and professionalism. Those two things are exactly what you do when you try to make any organisation a success. 

If I were part of the UK comp trials scene right now reading this thread, I'd be finding a way of offering Mark the right sort of benefits to get him involved – he's clearly got good ideas and is passionate about the scene as a whole, and it'd be better than going in blind yourselves.

[kevind]

 If you think I do it because I love telling everybody how busy I am then you are very much mistaken, I like you have done it for years and see how much effort people put in to the benefit of the club. I only mentioned I am busy because 1 I am and 2 more importantly I have no interest in this side off it, the bit I enjoy is setting out the trials. I could easily walk away last year when we were down to 8 riders, because believe me being busy is what you do when you work for yourself and productivity is all about hard work and being efficient in my work processes. I don't know your working back ground and perhaps you have the privilege of working in a well organised more effective business. But I don't work weekends because that is for family and work for myself for a lifestyle not wealth.. Mark is full of great ideas and it would be wonderful if he offered, but I guess like most of us he has a busy life outside trials. As you hopefully you get from my posts that if its not fun, with a bit of banter then I will not do it as I guess this is what this thread started about, people with their own agendas making it not fun. Your points are taken and listen to as I do at every trial we run and hopefully improve on. I disagree that clubs should be run as businesses and that they should be run as a group of liked minded people having a good day out or just with their kids. (I may be wrong) But I am one of a few offering up some suggestions here to try and help.

I am out of this thread as it does not have anybody else standing up and saying yup count me in not for Scottish club but to keep trials in middle Englandshire going, but will read on with interest if anybody offers to help or sort out all that has been discussed. i will carry on developing Scottish trials with the enthusiasm of like minded club members and even take a lot of what Mark has offered and see if someone in the club will use it to benefit the club.  .Good luck to what ever comes out of the ashes of the Tyke trial club and if we can help then as most of those that do know we will.

Mark could you EM me the questionnaire that you used last time and I will hand it out at our last club trial with maybe some extra relevant questions to our club and see what we get? Thanks

Ahh just noticed the TT logo, I have apologised.

Edited August 28, 2016 by kevind

[Mark W]

This has all got a bit clusterf**ky with the different quotes and stuff involved, so I'll try and condense it a bit:

- Results/entry stuff being more uniform:  Someone acting for the Biketrial Federation setting up a template for them then clubs being able to slightly tweak them if they need to would be the way to go.  Having it all going from the main body for trials in the UK sets a better example, and for other people setting up a club it means they can just go to the BTF and get all the admin stuff they need in an easy, organised form.  If I was setting up a club and entering that minefield, that would be a huge help for me.  As I mentioned before, having the BTF as a body that leads like that would also make it more of a tempting proposition to back too.  It would help clearly define where any investment from BC could go, which is probably the sort of reassurance they're going to need if they ever get behind trials.  Similarly, having some form of AGM or similar at the National Cycle Centre (or whatever they call it) will probably be useful simply because it keeps them aware that trials is going, and that there's still some form of governing body making things happen.  It also gives you a chance to get one back over them by rinsing the buffet and coffee   I'm aware you're not a fan of them, but to be pretty blunt, it isn't about you, it's about all the clubs and all the current and future riders.  I'm not a fan of them either, but if trials is wedded to trying to appease the UCI, and the UCI and BC are as linked as they are, BC are the only way that trials is likely to get anything from anyone.  Whether they help out or not, just having that as an aim and trying to act in a more professional way can only be a benefit to everyone involved really?

- Comps as a business:  JD got where I was coming from with that.  I'm not saying you need to act like a business and start making money from it.  Whether you're making money from it or not, you're offering a service/product to people.  It's a transaction.  People pay you an entry fee and for that they expect you to have sections for them to ride, insurance, all the admin side, etc.  I keep mentioning businesses because they are typically geared at trying to grow their customer base, which is what people seem to want comps in the UK to be doing.  The best way you can do that is to know what those people want, or at least get some ideas from them about things they might be interested in.  That's where the research side comes in, in the form of questionnaires or whatever.  You might only get limited feedback, but if it's usable feedback then that still gives you some indications.  I'm not sure if we've still got the survey thing setup (just so you know, it was online only, there's no paper copy to hand out.  This is a good thing though as it means you don't have to collate a shitload of information from people, it's all done automatically for you - time/efficiency being key again), but I imagine it wouldn't be hard to set up a new one again, especially with that 'Forms' thing from Google I mentioned before being pretty good by the looks of things.

In terms of me helping out, for a variety of reasons I won't be (being busy isn't really one of them).  I'm happy to give a bit of help/advice as and where I can if I need to, but that will be about the extent of it realistically.  I'm not replying to this and suggesting things because I have any interest in comps, I'm doing it because from my outside-looking-in perspective there are some relatively easily solvable issues that at worst would make life easier for those involved behind the scenes, but at best might get more people involved with competitions in either a riding or organising capacity.  Making the behind-the-scenes side of things more up to date and more easily accessible for all means that for the future, it'll be in a much better place.  These are changes that are going to have to happen at some point, so getting it done now means that hopefully things can grow on a more solid foundation.

Just to be clear, I don't think my ideas are all amazing, perfectly formed and should be implemented instantly.  The things I've mentioned are just little bits and pieces I've picked up from the past few years that seem to me at least could be applied to comps in some form.  If people want to run with them then cool, if not, no worries.  I've only personally organised one trials event in the UK before, and been very loosely involved with some of the TB ones, so I don't claim to know how it all works, or have a better idea of running things than all of the clubs who've been going for years.

[kevind]

6 hours ago, Mark W said:

This has all got a bit clusterf**ky with the different quotes and stuff involved, so I'll try and condense it a bit

I know I sad I wouldnt but I am going to be blunt now.:

- Results/entry stuff being more uniform:  Someone acting for the Biketrial Federation setting up a template for them then clubs being able to slightly tweak them if they need to would be the way to go.  Having it all going from the main body for trials in the UK sets a better example, and for other people setting up a club it means they can just go to the BTF and get all the admin stuff they need in an easy, organised form.  If I was setting up a club and entering that minefield, that would be a huge help for me.  As I mentioned before, having the BTF as a body that leads like that would also make it more of a tempting proposition to back too.  It would help clearly define where any investment from BC could go, which is probably the sort of reassurance they're going to need if they ever get behind trials.  Similarly, having some form of AGM or similar at the National Cycle Centre (or whatever they call it) will probably be useful simply because it keeps them aware that trials is going, and that there's still some form of governing body making things happen.  It also gives you a chance to get one back over them by rinsing the buffet and coffee   I'm aware you're not a fan of them, but to be pretty blunt, it isn't about you, it's about all the clubs and all the current and future riders.  I'm not a fan of them either, but if trials is wedded to trying to appease the UCI, and the UCI and BC are as linked as they are, BC are the only way that trials is likely to get anything from anyone.  Whether they help out or not, just having that as an aim and trying to act in a more professional way can only be a benefit to everyone involved really?

Many people have tried before I was involved, and still are with BC. they cant even have a representative at the meeting and its in their building having been asked over the years I have attended the AGM.. I would love trials to be on an equal level and have tried to help, I even have Scottish cycling now admitting trials exists after six years of badgering them. But you know what after taking advice, after we got to that point, everybody (and some insiders told me leave it alone as they will interfere with the running of events and put on restrictions and red tape). I can do without all that and through other means we have started to gain numbers. It is about me because I am the one thats tried to help. I am allowed an educated opinion on them. I don't see anyone standing up and saying yup I will get this all sorted. I would if 1 I had an understanding of all this computer tech and 2 I ain't that busy! so it will wobble on as it is now until some one or persons do.I have been to UCI events over the last two years with Aaron, and have loved the professionalism the people (except BC) and we have new friends from all over the world, We have a world champion and even that doesn't get BC interested. 

- Comps as a business:  JD got where I was coming from with that.  I'm not saying you need to act like a business and start making money from it.  Whether you're making money from it or not, you're offering a service/product to people.  It's a transaction.  People pay you an entry fee and for that they expect you to have sections for them to ride, insurance, all the admin side, etc.  I keep mentioning businesses because they are typically geared at trying to grow their customer base, which is what people seem to want comps in the UK to be doing.  The best way you can do that is to know what those people want, or at least get some ideas from them about things they might be interested in.  That's where the research side comes in, in the form of questionnaires or whatever.  You might only get limited feedback, but if it's usable feedback then that still gives you some indications.  I'm not sure if we've still got the survey thing setup (just so you know, it was online only, there's no paper copy to hand out.  This is a good thing though as it means you don't have to collate a shitload of information from people, it's all done automatically for you - time/efficiency being key again), but I imagine it wouldn't be hard to set up a new one again, especially with that 'Forms' thing from Google I mentioned before being pretty good by the looks of things.

I do understand your reasoning about this but disagree with you that's all. Re the survey just showing my real bad knowledge of this part of it and it would be hard for me. People pay their entry fee and expect? people should pay their entry fee and come along and help as well, its a club not a business. If the people expect everything done for them like a business then they will be charged for that service, that in my opinion is not how a club is run. yes there is a crossover in many things and they will help but the model of a club is fundamentally different from a business in my opinion. Clubs barely cover costs now a days and thats ok, but without the generosity of club members the clubs would not exist, (Going back to page one.) If a club can cover costs and perhaps should cover some of the generosity of club members that don't just expect, then entry fees may need to go up. That in my opinion would be the last thing trials needs at the moment.

 

In terms of me helping out, for a variety of reasons I won't be (being busy isn't really one of them).  I'm happy to give a bit of help/advice as and where I can if I need to, but that will be about the extent of it realistically.  I'm not replying to this and suggesting things because I have any interest in comps, I'm doing it because from my outside-looking-in perspective there are some relatively easily solvable issues that at worst would make life easier for those involved behind the scenes, but at best might get more people involved with competitions in either a riding or organising capacity.  Making the behind-the-scenes side of things more up to date and more easily accessible for all means that for the future, it'll be in a much better place.  These are changes that are going to have to happen at some point, so getting it done now means that hopefully things can grow on a more solid foundation.

Totally agree and someone with knowledge in this needs to help(not my old dumb ass, computers were not invented when I was at school and I am not that old, just technology races on and I only pick up what i need from it to do what I need.), but nearly a year in. no one. Barbara helped me all these years ago with templates and information to set up SBTC and I wanted to piggy back the club onto BTF as it made club/business sense. Just showing here that I am not stuck in the depths of old age and have run MY type of business since I was in my mid 20s and I am still here through good times and some pretty hard times, so must be doing something correct as it has provided a quality of life that I and my family have really enjoyed. As I said it is a life style choice and maybe that is the reason we disagree?

Just to be clear, I don't think my ideas are all amazing, perfectly formed and should be implemented instantly.  The things I've mentioned are just little bits and pieces I've picked up from the past few years that seem to me at least could be applied to comps in some form.  If people want to run with them then cool, if not, no worries.  I've only personally organised one trials event in the UK before, and been very loosely involved with some of the TB ones, so I don't claim to know how it all works, or have a better idea of running things than all of the clubs who've been going for years.

Everybody's opinions and efforts to help are welcome and I am, like you just trying to help and good debate is better than none. That's the only way the revolution starts) But where are the people that this directly involves, now I know not everyone is on here, but a load are and it seems to be only me and you that are trying to offer up solutions, and one of us has no direct involvement with trials and therefore you are much more appreciated (from me anyway) that you are taking the time to offer solutions.

I like you have never said I get it correct but it seems to me now that perhaps I am to old school in my view of what a club is all about (Ali C perhaps nailed it on the head and you have by inadvertently using the word "expect" have also nailed it) times do change and clubs still do exist, but perhaps need to be run under a business model as nobody is willing to volunteer nowadays. SO do we start charging club memberships and entries to reflect the extra money to pay someone to do what is being discussed and take a load of Barbara, the organisers get expenses and the observers get expenses. (BIU gave a nominal amount to observers this year and UCI observers get expenses) This I throw up for discussion, we are still by far a cheap sport now a days. I also refuse to believe people don't have the money (some don't) but you just need to go back to BMX, downhill, XC and Enduro to see that people spend a huge amount on cycling whether it be on themselves or their kids. (moto trials, MX the list goes on. Aaron has a friend that when at school he did road racing and his dads budget without truck and bike capital cost was 40k a year and he was a garage mechanic but worked his ass off to raise the funds to get his lad on the grid. But they also turned up to help set up the local road race even at his level. Their are also lots of dads here that do the same for their kids and make sacrifices great and small to allow their kids to compete at club to world level, and after being at the BIUs this year that seems to be improving as well. Entry fees are hundreds of pounds per event, to cover a huge amount of organisation, more than trials on a windswept hill side will ever need. But will a tenner  help improve trials into the next era? Just another point for discussion? There are also loads of avenues for clubs to get private funding and there are professional people out their that do this for a fee, but someone needs to stand up and organise this. If we now expect (as a society, I firmly believe) then the only way forward is to charge for that service we as the workers provide (business model) not a bunch of like minded volunteers.

Sorry if I come across to people as it just about me, that is not my intention, what I try to give is a passion to a sport both moto and now cycle, it obviously means a lot to me that trials goes forward and doesn't just die. I live in Scotland and cannot help tyke trials rise again, but trials now needs to move a great distance into the future to make trials comps rise again, I maybe not the correct person to do this with my old views that probably with other oldies have held trials back, looking at it from an outsiders view.  But will only be happy to stand out in the pissin rain setting up and taking down, with more and more help occasionally and just love the social side of camp fire and beers (whiskey to the bad people from the highlands) that seems to be the norm at our events now and the occasional Englandshire event, so that at least in the interim, there are still trials to compete in and I will still push to make trials more accessible by doing what I can and taking all the help and advise offered. That is all I can give and if people don't agree then stand up and make the change, I can also be a wee bit outspoken in this shit PC era we live in and that I know that upsets people. But if that makes people think more then so be it.

Come on its our sport have an input good or bad, right or wrong. 

 

[Mark W]

Quote

 

It is about me because I am the one thats tried to help

So you're the only one at the AGM?  You're the only one representing each other club too?

Quote

 

I do understand your reasoning about this...

From the rest of that, it seems like you don't understand my reasoning at all.  I've specifically stated that I wasn't referring to the monetary side of things at all, in any way.  I don't really get how I can be any clearer than that.  It was a simple analogy to show that listening to what people want, but more importantly giving them a platform to actually do so, would be useful.  It isn't surprising that people aren't replying to this because even as someone involved with this thread the formatting makes it pretty hard to follow.  You keep mentioning it's just me and you making suggestions, 60 people replied to that questionnaire we sent out before.  Not a huge number, but more than the average number of attendees for a comp so in the scheme of things not too bad.  That's 60 people who hadn't been given a direct opportunity to have their voice heard before, who made the most of that opportunity.  With it being pushed again this year, and with the timing being better in terms of actually having their feedback acted upon, hopefully there could be a better response this time too.

EDIT:  Oh yeah - this is the questionnaire thing we did before.  Could be improved upon/made more relevant for the next one, but gives you a rough idea: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/TLQJ2XM

[kevind]

12 hours ago, kevind said:

 I'm aware you're not a fan of them, but to be pretty blunt, it isn't about you,

Kinda took my reply out of context, but I guess that is what happens on forums. It never was about me it was always about running a club in Scotland to help get Scottish trials running. I don't ride or take anything from it other than a personal joy of trying to do something for someone else. I have the right to an opinion on things I have been involved with. And to make that statement that i think i was the only one at the AGM is just insulting. So when it goes to that then there is no more point in discussing as you have obviously formed an opinion of my motives.

I do understand the communication and listening to what others want, but still disagree about the club/business (money aside). I should have stuck to my guns and stopped, but that's me. please take the tyke trial club or what ever follows  and I wish who ever runs it the best. If trials is on its last legs then so be it, I stood up tried my best and if it looks like I was wrong then at least I tried. I am done with the politics and lack of concerted effort. If the few that still do step away then like tyke trials, its is done for the UK.. the few are getting fewer  

Edited August 30, 2016 by kevind