Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 What was it that swung you to that way in the end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Mark W said: Nah, I didn't mean that at all - apologies if it came across that way! That was a separate thing from seeing some posts on FB. Regarding the vote thing, David Cameron is still 'just a person in the UK' though, in the same way Farage, Johnson and so on are. In that example you mentioned before, even if it was 'only' 30% who strongly believe they should be in, that's still 10% more than those who believe in voting out so it'd still be the right result overall? Ah, fair play so I can only imagine what FB has been like over the past couple of months. The overall result would be right, but I don't feel it would be representative of the overall "feeling" of the voters. To take the same example, if the 5 undecided split their vote equally between in and out (so 2.5 voted in, 2.5 voted out) then you get an overall "in" vote of.. *drum roll* 55% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just now, Mark W said: Seems it's a pretty common thing everywhere at the moment - there's been a rise in far/extreme right parties everywhere in Europe, and you just have to look at Donald Trump potentially being able to become president of the US based on a platform of building a wall and keeping Mexicans and Muslims out... totally. i think frustration with the major (governing) parties and the perceived lack of action and ideas is the reason. this seems to be a global thing right now (at least in the western world). we just had just below 50% of the population vote for a total rightwinger, just because he is anti-establishment-politics and has a harmless smile. i can understand where some of the frustration comes from, even if i don't really share it. i think it is at the core a most basic feeling, like a lack of direction for the whole western world, death of utopias / grand narratives (not to go all out postmodern mumbojumbo here) and not something a (national) party could ever really solve. what i definitely not believe in, is to put the most disgusting human beings in charge to come up with a solution / amelioration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 True, but fundamentally that means that the overall vote is still 'right'? It was an entirely different story in the general election though - as a few examples, there was only 5% difference between Labour and the Conservatives, but the Conservatives got 331 seats out of that to Labour's 232 (out of 650). The bigger disparity though is that UKIP got 3,881,099 votes compared to the Tories getting 11,334,576 (Labour got 9,347,304), yet UKIP only got 1 seat - 330 less than the Tories. Since they won that election the Tories have also changed the voting boundaries too so it'll be even more skewed in their favour in future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 12 minutes ago, Mark W said: What was it that swung you to that way in the end? Most things, to put it simply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, Mark W said: True, but fundamentally that means that the overall vote is still 'right'? Yes. But a 55% win and a 80% win are different things. If you took an exam (pass rate: 50%) and got 55%, would you be equally as happy as if you got 80%? Or would you think "shit I have work to do". My point is I don't particularly like the idea of Cameron sitting back and thinking "yeah, easy win.. time to sit back and relax", when a good proportion of the vote may have been made by people who aren't particularly happy with the current situation but still voted in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 yes (if i understood that correctly) - the rightwingers have some kind of power to dictate the topics that are discussed to the media and the people: that we are feeling unsafe, that security politics are intermingled with immigration politics, that we spend too much on "lazy" people... etc. this then influences the major parties - our socialdemocratic party (center-left) just voted for the building of a (orba-style) border fence. austria is a bit of a strange case, always very rightwing. (i think) we usually do have a right wing majority (center-right + far right) . right now the far-right are leading in the polls (~ 35%), but they are always way higher in the polls than in real election results thankfully. we also have kind of a unique media-landscape: like a fifth of the population used to read one newspaper, which is very populist and rightwing. the recent election i mentioned is another special case. it's for the state president's office, who has no real power, mostly symbolic ( i imagine like your queen). it was far-right against green party. thankgod the green guy won, but it was by a hairbreadth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 went and voted, such adultness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Ali C said: went and voted, such adultness! did you wear a bowler hat? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mikee said: Most things, to put it simply. I meant that you said that you read some things that made you change your mind - I meant what things did you read. 3 minutes ago, tomturd said: Yes. But a 55% win and a 80% win are different things. If you took an exam (pass rate: 50%) and got 55%, would you be equally as happy as if you got 80%? Or would you think "shit I have work to do". My point is I don't particularly like the idea of Cameron sitting back and thinking "yeah, easy win.. time to sit back and relax", when a good proportion of the vote may have been made by people who aren't particularly happy with the current situation but still voted in. I definitely don't think they're sitting back and thinking it's easy. 'Leave' has been ahead, plus as I said before you've got Farage, Gove, Johnson and so on who are voting Leave so they would basically be the opposition to Cameron's vote so it would effectively be no different to them just being some anonymous voters? And again, there's no "shades" of being in the EU, it's In or Out - as a result, whichever gets over 50% is the 'right' decision irrespective of how many people it actually is. 1 minute ago, jeff costello said: yes (if i understood that correctly) - the rightwingers have some kind of power to dictate the topics that are discussed to the media and the people: that we are feeling unsafe, that security politics are intermingled with immigration politics, that we spend too much on "lazy" people... etc. this then influences the major parties - our socialdemocratic party (center-left) just voted for the building of a (orba-style) border fence. It's not quite as simple as that here. Basically, Rupert Murdoch ("I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'") owns most of the media here, and he's right wing as f**k. Consequently most coverage here has that skew. Similarly, as he's massively anti-EU, that's why all the shit that gets spouted about it gets reported with no critique, yet the Remain camp gets slammed a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Mark W said: t's not quite as simple as that here. Basically, Rupert Murdoch ("I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'") owns most of the media here, and he's right wing as f**k. Consequently most coverage here has that skew. Similarly, as he's massively anti-EU, that's why all the shit that gets spouted about it gets reported with no critique, yet the Remain camp gets slammed a lot. maybe it is similar. Hans Dichand was the guy who owned the Kronenzeitung (who was read by like 3.5 million people out of 8 million - i think it dropped a lot since the internet though). he wasn't so much a media-mogul-type guy as murdoch, but he totally owned the newpaper market. also very right wing, anti-eu,anti-foreigners. he died a few years ago and the number of people who read newspapers is diminishing, so things are in change. isn't the bbc making up for the murdoch news? the austrian public broadcasting station is more on the left and get massive shit from the right wingers recently. (btw. i have to mention, that i absolutely love bbc radio. i constantly listen to "free thinking" on bbc3 and one or two science / culture programs. i wish our state broadcasting company had this kind of standard) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 The BBC's been repeatedly called out for political bias recently, there was a campaign to have their politics editor fired for the nature of their coverage. Their coverage is pretty ridiculous too in some regards - fully not covering some things that would be 'bad' for the government (who have threatened them a lot with having their funding reduced/removed). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 same here. rightwingers rallying to abolish mandatory fees people have pay to the public broadcasting company. while crawling up didi matteschitz's ass (the redbull guy) because he runs a private tv channel. massive campains (daily facebook shitstorm) against the main news anchor for alleged leftwing biases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Yeah, the BBC are being penalised here for being 'too good' essentially. Some parts of the government have said that it's too hard for private companies to compete, despite that not really being the case. They're doing their best to run it into the ground though (or "Doing an NHS" as it could also be called), hence things like BBC3 getting f**ked off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikeperson45 Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 It's been a while since we've had a riot anyway, looking forward to the weekend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Bleech Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Having moved to USA, I definitely see similarities between the Brexit campaign and Trump's Presidential campaign, both are relying on fear and a rose-tinted view that everything was better in the past (I think this has something to do with missing childhood and having no worries). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 It's generally the "in" campaigners using fear tactics over here ("if we leave we'll be screwed" - to be fair that's all they really can say, they don't really have much scope to change the EU). They might be right though. The leave campaign can at least dream of better things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 I voted in, btw. Anyone watching the results come in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolfa Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 we've got the BBC results up on the till at work, me and another English guy checking it every couple of minutes ripping our hair out over it, Kiwi boss thinks it's absolutely mental it's even a bit close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 I'm watching. They're saying 80% chance of leaving now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Bleech Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 8 hours ago, tomturd said: It's generally the "in" campaigners using fear tactics over here ("if we leave we'll be screwed" - to be fair that's all they really can say, they don't really have much scope to change the EU). They might be right though. The leave campaign can at least dream of better things. Both campaigns have dealt in fear, but I meant the leave campaign has been mainly a 'make Britain great again' and foreigners are bad, but with no real plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 You can now buy a pound for $1.35. Crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolfa Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 well shit, I can't believe this is happening, I leave the country alone for 18 months and you go and vote the Tories in for a second term and give them free reign, terrific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ooo Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 Heres some update on the on coming recession http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0Z92MZ Heres one talking about the referedum isnt binding http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-legally-binding-brexit-lisbon-cameron-sovereign-parliament Its possible that if theres a big enough crash parliament could vote and the decision may not go through?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted June 24, 2016 Report Share Posted June 24, 2016 What's worse is Scotland wanted to stay so they'll probably try for independence again to allow them to stay. What a f**king mess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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