EU Referendum

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

  On 6/26/2016 at 7:16 PM, isitafox said:

Until all the dust has settled and the various deals have been made there is no possible way anyone can say staying in the EU was the better choice. 

Only time will tell

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So it's an outright gamble. Awesome. f**k everything for the next 5-10 years in case maybe after that time things get a little better. Or maybe not. What you say would've made sense if there had been an iota of intelligence put into the campaigns or if there was a shred of evidence to suggest just what could be done moving forward but that's not the case. We just had a bunch of complete f**knuggets spouting lies and bullshit in a successful attempt to make people vote a certain way. 

When Donald f**king Trump says that Brexit is a great thing you know it's f**king bad news.

Edit: And you've also now got a bunch of retard racists across the country telling anyone who looks foreign that they should pack their bags because they're not welcome anymore. Great f**king times ahead.

[Tony Harrison]

Indeed, without any real evidence that life outside the EU would be better, the sensible thing to do would've been to not change anything (i.e. vote remain).

[AdamR28]

I'm pretty sour about this whole thing, but I guess we just have to bend over and take it... So frustrating to now have all these people doing their research after having voted.

 

I can't work out why people would vote out. It was such a gamble. Those who did vote Leave, what were the reasons you did it? Not 'I just felt it was the best thing', but the actual reasons - such as 'I think the UK is strong enough to negotiate better trade links now than it currently has within the EU', not just 'to send the imagrunts (sic) home'.

 

Weirdly it seems old people voted out in their droves, my mum did and a load of her mates. I think they have rose-tinted glasses on, from back before the UK was in the EU, thinking we're some great country that can stand on our own feet. My feeling is that things are different now... We don't make much stuff any more, don't really have much to offer the wider world, and we don't have high interest rates that we can drop to stimulate the economy in troubled times like we used to.

[Mikee]

  On 6/27/2016 at 11:18 AM, Adam@TartyBikes said:

Those who did vote Leave, what were the reasons you did it?

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I will give you a couple of my reasons.

 

• I'm against globalisation.
• The EU isn't deomcratic and I want to be able to vote for the people who have any impact on my way of life.
• Economically, the EU isn't doing very well compared to the rest of the world.
• I'm not a racist saying all imigrants should GTFO, but I do believe we should be able to control who and how many are coming in.
• We will continue to trade with the whole world. Leaving the EU may even remove some barriers.

[isitafox]

I'm not saying it's an outright gamble but all the remain voters seem to be whining that we are 100% going to be worse off and there's no possible way that they can know that no matter what the so called "experts" predict. 

The Met Office has been studying the weather for years and they can still get it completely wrong despite all the evidence and previous info they have to work with. 

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

  On 6/27/2016 at 11:11 AM, Tony Harrison said:

Indeed, without any real evidence that life outside the EU would be better, the sensible thing to do would've been to not change anything (i.e. vote remain).

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That's the thing- if there had been some thought into it and there was a reasonable case put forward to how we would prosper in the event of leaving the EU then cool beans but as it is now they've got the vote everyone seems to be just standing around looking sheepish while the government, opposition and markets tumble around them. Time for a facepalm and slow clap...

  On 6/27/2016 at 12:21 PM, isitafox said:

I'm not saying it's an outright gamble but all the remain voters seem to be whining that we are 100% going to be worse off and there's no possible way that they can know that no matter what the so called "experts" predict. 

The Met Office has been studying the weather for years and they can still get it completely wrong despite all the evidence and previous info they have to work with. 

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Ah but if it's raining outside they're pretty sure to tell you it's raining. With the bottom dropping out of the market since Friday morning I don't think you need any experts to tell you it's a bit shit. There's now a massive shakeup in Westminster which, whether in itself is good or bad, is just going to delay things and make things ten times worse for the foreseeable future.

[jeff costello]

  On 6/27/2016 at 12:16 PM, Mikee said:

• I'm against globalisation.

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lol. i wonder where you plan to grow your local tea.

seriously, the EU is more or less how globalisation should work - sharing of labour and production goods on the same eye-level: the freedom of movement for workers might bring problems in the short run, but will in the longer run help to establish similar conditions in all participating countries.

the problem with globalisation is not that it's global, but that western countries exploit countries / people which have no power to fight back, leaving as little money there as possible and no plans to change that over time.

[Mark W]

  On 6/26/2016 at 11:04 PM, tomturd said:

Or try explaining to someone who has to beg a food bank for hand outs "but you can go on holiday without a passport!" and see what response you get. Unfortunately an EU funded train station doesn't really help those people.

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That's a pretty ironic choice of situation.  The EU has a fund available to help governments fund food banks, but our Conservative government turned it down because to accept it would be an admission of weakness in their plan, and they didn't want that.  They actively turned down EU funding for it.  The EU were willing to do it, our government weren't.  See also:  Ebbw Vale, Cornwall, etc.

Some delicious sources:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/17/government-under-fire-eu-funding-food-banks

http://www.globalresearch.ca/poverty-in-britain-cameron-government-rejects-eu-help-for-food-and-flood-victims/5501317

/\   Also mentions about them turning down flood aid.

To give you an idea of the scale of food bank use now - which isn't helped by the government in any way:

Those are just 3-day supply packs given out by the Trussel Trust.  More delicious source: https://www.trusselltrust.org/news-and-blog/latest-stats/

@isitafox - regarding weather, think of it like a plane flying along.  They use weather forecasts for wind speed, pressure, weather types, etc.  Those forecasts might not give them an exact idea of specifically what will be where, but it's a lot better than just winging it.  If all the info you had available to you was that going straight on would lead to you flying into a bad storm, you'd probably change course.  We didn't - a quick look at the financial markets back that up, as did polls for business leaders and pretty much anyone else involved with the economy.  As a quick example of that:

"A survey by the Institute of Directors (IoD), which found that the majority of businesses believed Brexit was bad for them, comes amid fears that investors will wipe billions more pounds off share values on Monday morning, and signs that the pound, which hit a 30-year low on Friday, was coming under further pressure from trading in Asia. Sterling was down more than 1% as the Asian markets opened late on Sunday.

The IoD said a quarter of the members polled in a survey were putting hiring plans on hold, while 5% said they were set to make workers redundant. Nearly two-thirds of those polled said the outcome of the referendum was negative for their business. One in five respondents, out of a poll of more than 1,000 business leaders, were considering moving some of their operations outside of the UK."

[Mark W]

  On 6/27/2016 at 12:16 PM, Mikee said:

The EU isn't deomcratic and I want to be able to vote for the people who have any impact on my way of life

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It is - laws/directives/legislations are drawn up by a council of the member states, and they're typically only achieved with the consensus of those involved.  Those people are voted in by us.  There are the unelected members of the Commission, but they don't have the final say on anything.

By voting Leave though you've got our unelected House of Lords, our Monarchy, and as of October an unelected Prime Minister.  Nice hat-trick.

[tomturd]

  On 6/27/2016 at 1:38 PM, Mark W said:

That's a pretty ironic choice of situation.  The EU has a fund available to help governments fund food banks, but our Conservative government turned it down because to accept it would be an admission of weakness in their plan, and they didn't want that.  They actively turned down EU funding for it.  The EU were willing to do it, our government weren't.  See also:  Ebbw Vale, Cornwall, etc.

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I don't think the result would have been any different (even if we did have those big blue signs outside food banks saying "EU Funds: Investing in your future" - that would also be ironic, non?)

I'm merely trying to provide some balance here (and having some fun while I'm at it), I think the country as a whole made the wrong decision, but I believe we can work through it, or, perhaps, leaving the EU will never actually happen.

[Mikee]

  On 6/27/2016 at 1:41 PM, Mark W said:

It is - laws/directives/legislations are drawn up by a council of the member states, and they're typically only achieved with the consensus of those involved.  Those people are voted in by us.  There are the unelected members of the Commission, but they don't have the final say on anything.

By voting Leave though you've got our unelected House of Lords, our Monarchy, and as of October an unelected Prime Minister.  Nice hat-trick.

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What percentage of this council have I had the opportunity to vote for? I don't want a vast amount of people that I don't get to vote for or even know who they are, governing me. Countries should govern themselves, with their own people's interests in mind. A free trade union is fine, but this large scale political system is wrong.

 

I don't even think the polical system in our country is very democratic. The number of people voting for a party doesn't reflect the number of seats they get in parliment.

 

The referendum has nothing to do with the house of lords or the monarchy, but I don't agree with them either. David Cameron said that he would respect the will of the people and initiate article 50 in the event of a leave vote. It's only after leave won that he decided to disrespect the will of the people and resign.

[jeff costello]

  On 6/27/2016 at 2:16 PM, Mikee said:

What percentage of this council have I had the opportunity to vote for?

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it's more or less by population size - hence them being afraid of turkey joining, because it immediately becomes the second biggest player after germany.

regarding politicians: national parties are linked up in european alliances. so they harmonize their policies and votes in the european parliament.

[Mark W]

  On 6/27/2016 at 1:59 PM, tomturd said:

I don't think the result would have been any different (even if we did have those big blue signs outside food banks saying "EU Funds: Investing in your future" - that would also be ironic, non?)

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I don't think pointing out that our own government chose to not fund food banks would be that ironic, but I see where you're coming from   I don't think there was anything that the EU could have done to overturn years and years of relentless shitstorming going on from the news media over here (again, as a result of Boris Johnson's style of reporting from Brussels).

  On 6/27/2016 at 2:16 PM, Mikee said:

The referendum has nothing to do with the house of lords or the monarchy, but I don't agree with them either. David Cameron said that he would respect the will of the people and initiate article 50 in the event of a leave vote. It's only after leave won that he decided to disrespect the will of the people and resign.

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Surely he was 'respecting the will of the people' more by resigning and letting someone who believed in that future be the one to lead it?  Him resigning was an absolute inevitability - he staked his future on Remain and didn't win that battle.  It's as standard as a party leader resigning after losing an election.  It would also be weird for someone who had appeared to be so vehemently opposed to the concept to then lead the country afterwards as they clearly wouldn't have faith in it.  If anything, the 'disrespect' being done here is by Boris Johnson and Michael Gove who appear to have suddenly had cold feet about the whole thing having told people that being in Europe was the worst thing ever and we needed to be out ASAP (but then conveniently forgot to mention things like they had no plan to do it before 2020, weren't going to stop the free movement of labour, weren't going to follow the pledge on the side of their campaign buses, etc.).

[forteh]

Isn't it about time that politicians had a regulator just like the banks do?

How many of the leave voters will be moaning when the cost of everything goes up substantially? I dare say we've not exited the last recession yet and already prices have increased and people are being squeezed due to the fall in sterling.

[manuel]

  On 6/27/2016 at 1:41 PM, Mark W said:

and as of October an unelected Prime Minister.  Nice hat-trick.

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I agree with all you said except this. You don't vote for a pm, you vote for your local MP. I think a lot of people fail to see this at general elections. It may influence your vote, and you may vote tactically because of it, but the whole point is to send some loon to Westminster to represent you and your area. 

 

New question - if you had to pick Gove or Boris....? 

[isitafox]

Boris

[ooo]

Here is another bit of important news, I hadnt heard about this at all but could mean another 1975

Bloomberg - Who Will Now Invest £100 Billion to Keep Britain's Lights On? http://bloom.bg/29iLb5M

 

[Mark W]

  On 6/27/2016 at 7:00 PM, manuel said:

I agree with all you said except this. You don't vote for a pm, you vote for your local MP.

 

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Yeah, but the way people typically use their vote is to essentially vote in whoever is the leader of their chosen political party, realistically.  The party set out a vision from the top which you're then asked to buy into with your vote, so I'd say a Johnson led Conservative party trying to breeze out of Europe is a slightly different proposition to the Cameron led party from 2015.

Sounds like Theresa May might be a front runner too (currently ahead of Johnson in polls).  It really is a collection of f**kwits to choose from.  All of them have been either shuffled around the cabinet or fired for being f**king inept, so to have them vying to run the country is mental. 

It sounds like Boris doesn't really have the stomach to invoke article 50 in any case so whether we actually leave still seems a little up in the air.  May was a Remainer, so again, can't really see her rushing to do it either...

[CC12345678910]

Trawling back a few posts I know but I feel like sticking my 2p in.

  On 6/27/2016 at 11:18 AM, Adam@TartyBikes said:

I can't work out why people would vote out. Those who did vote Leave, what were the reasons you did it?

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As I said on the last page, I couldn't think of a single reason to vote in - Most seem to be outpouring the "if it's not broke don't fix it" - Bollocks.

Throughout history there has always been people who have gone "arh this is alright eh?", stereotypically middle to upper class poshies who inheirted some form of leg up in life, no matter how minor that may have been; and those going "well this is f**kin shit int it?", stereotypically those who are or believe to be getting shafted with a scaffy pole by the first lot...

Beyond that I did not feel eu membership was personally gaining me, or anyone I care for, anything positive. I hate wastefullness of all kinds. Watching 20mins of beurocracy and bullshit speeches from the brussels parliament when it was live on lunchtime telly today did nothing but reinforce my view about the 200+ pr1cks sat there in that chamber leeching x million quid/euro a year is nothing more than a septic leg that needs to be amputated before it kills the rest of the being. I can't be doing with it.

  On 6/27/2016 at 11:18 AM, Adam@TartyBikes said:

My feeling is that things are different now... We don't make stuff any more.

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Ain't this the truth, mores the pity. I want an economy built on, well, building and making stuff, not a load of millionare arseholes in the city playing god and then stashing a cheeky percentage in a personal 'don't tell anyone' nest egg in the caymans or panama.

  On 6/27/2016 at 11:18 AM, Adam@TartyBikes said:

Weirdly it seems old people voted out in their droves, my mum did and a load of her mates. I think they have rose-tinted glasses on, from back before the UK was in the EU, thinking we're some great country that can stand on our own feet. I personally think that england was, is, and will be fubared regardless of circumstance.

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My dad voted the last time and still believes Harold Wilson and co duffed the count George Bush Jr style so as to get the result he needed to save his own skin. Frankly there is nothing to say that this didn't happen this time round - maybe cameron's missus figures that tony blair's doing alright jack tossing off his prime ministers' pension out in dubai and wanted a change of scenery? Mam voted because she's as anti beurocracy and bs as I am.

Edited June 28, 2016 by CC12345678910

[jeff costello]

[CC12345678910]

That's actually the kind of poe faced image I have of the remoaners, since I have not personally met anyone yet that wanted in.

Not sure what point you're driving at @jeff costello, no doubt it's nicely satirical, or simply insulting, but since it's bringing a smile to my face it's all good craic & water of a ducks back. I can't help it if I'm an old man at 23 and cynical as f**k, that's the way life's moulded me.

Edit: Can't help but see a resemblance to Dougie Lampkin in that guys face, once you get rid of the tash of course.

Edited June 28, 2016 by CC12345678910

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

I can't believe Jeremy Hunt is considering running for the Conservative leadership. Does he not realise that every commoner with half a braincell would like to smash his face with a shovel and certainly wouldn't choose to spell his surname with an H?

[jeff costello]

you're a young guy, so there still is hope...

but that "i hate wastefulness" stick is really one of those commonplace truisms that poison political debate. yes, everybody hates it and no one is interested in parliamental debates anywhere in the world. still in 2000 years no one came up with a better solutions if you want politics / governments that are based on communication. dictatorships are a lot more efficient (in theory), still we found out time and time again that they are not productive in the long run.

and also everybody would want "real people doing real jobs"... but it's just not reality anymore. any job that can be done cheaper and as good overseas  will go overseas over time. it doesn't matter whether anyone likes it or not, that's just how it is. the future of the western world can't be in big scale industry, we've gotten too expensive for that.

 

[Mark W]

  On 6/28/2016 at 6:50 PM, CC12345678910 said:

Throughout history there has always been people who have gone "arh this is alright eh?", stereotypically middle to upper class poshies who inheirted some form of leg up in life, no matter how minor that may have been; and those going "well this is f**kin shit int it?", stereotypically those who are or believe to be getting shafted with a scaffy pole by the first lot...

Beyond that I did not feel eu membership was personally gaining me, or anyone I care for, anything positive. I hate wastefullness of all kinds. Watching 20mins of beurocracy and bullshit speeches from the brussels parliament when it was live on lunchtime telly today did nothing but reinforce my view about the 200+ pr1cks sat there in that chamber leeching x million quid/euro a year is nothing more than a septic leg that needs to be amputated before it kills the rest of the being. I can't be doing with it.

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There were definitely negatives to being in the EU, but they did undeniably bring a lot of money into the UK typically to people who needed it the most.  They've propped up various communities around the UK who were hit hardest when we stopped "making stuff" or having anything to export that people might give a shit about.

The main other thing the EU did was helped give us some rights that it seems the Conservative government wanted to get rid of, e.g. trade unions, workers rights, human rights, etc.  It's pretty timely that a report from the UN has just been released that paints a worse picture of the UK government than some sketchy 3rd world countries.  A snippet from another website:

  Reveal hidden contents

"In short, criticisms were fired at the Tories over:

- The number of self-employed, part-time and zero hours contracts jobs, and the effect on marginalised people.
- The housing crisis in the UK, including the lack of social housing, sky-high rental prices and rogue landlords.
- The “exceptionally high” levels of homelessness and the Conservatives’ inadequate response to this.
- The government’s record on education and failure to address inequality affecting pupils attainment levels.
- A failure to address food poverty and the heavy reliance by millions on food banks (see last page for more about this).
- The rising levels of poverty among marginalised groups, and the government’s failure to tackle child poverty.

But perhaps the two most astonishing sections were those dedicated to what the UN described itself as having “seriously” and “deeply” concerned views on – the effects of austerity, and welfare reforms on the disabled and most vulnerable in society.

The UN said of the Conservatives’ austerity measures:

"...The Committee is seriously concerned about the disproportionate adverse impact that austerity measures, introduced since 2010, are having on […] disadvantaged and marginalized individuals and groups. The Committee is concerned that the State party has not undertaken a comprehensive assessment of the cumulative impact of such measures […] in a way that is recognized by civil society and national independent monitoring mechanisms."

Translated? The UN is saying that the government has forced through austerity measures without bothering to think or care how they would affect the poor, the disabled and the vulnerable – and that in doing so, they have flouted agreed international standards. The government had already been warned once by the UN in 2012 regarding this – but the Tories chose to ignore it. They were told that (regarding austerity):

"...Such measures must be temporary, necessary, proportionate, and not discriminatory and must not disproportionately affect the rights of disadvantaged and marginalized individuals and groups and respect the core content of rights."

The UN said the government now must review all austerity measures since 2010 and the impact they have had on the marginalised groups they refer to.

However, the severest criticisms were of the 2012 Welfare Reform Act and the Welfare Reform and Work Act of 2016 – and the language and recommendations from the UN were unprecedented.

In no uncertain terms, the UN said that it was:

"...Deeply concerned about the various changes in the entitlements to, and cuts in, social benefits, introduced [in the two acts] such as the reduction of the household benefit cap, the […] spare-room subsidy (bedroom tax), the four year freeze on certain benefits and the reduction in child tax credits. The Committee is particularly concerned about the adverse impact on […] disadvantaged and marginalized individuals and groups, including women, children, persons with disabilities, low-income families and families with two or more children. The Committee also is concerned about the extent to which the State party has made use of sanctions in relation to social security benefits and the absence of due process and access to justice for those affected by the use of sanctions."

That is all part of my issue with voting to leave the EU now.  If you drop out the "But all governments are shit" thing you need to actually take into account what this government has done.  Selling off swathes of public services (and land) to benefit them and their friends.  Unprecedented wage regression.  Deliberately underfunding the NHS to make it easier for them to sell off private contracts (look into the number of Tory MPs with interests/shares in private health firms, especially in the House of Lords).  A benefits system that our own legal system declared was illegal, which required the law to then be changed retrospectively to let Ian Duncan Smith off the hook (someone who was part of Leave, and would no doubt be pretty up for running for PM).  Jeremy Hunt trying to force hospital closures and impose contracts on doctors (the former he got taken to court for, was found guilty of and then retrospectively changed the law too, the latter is still pending).  George Osborne making the austerity measures - that plenty of other countries tried and failed to implement as they're proven in models and in practise to not deliver any real growth/benefit, as our economy shows - ever harsher and f**king up more public services.

Yes, all governments are fairly shit, but this one has undeniably been worse than any others.  Even if you just want to look at the figures, the classic one is them generating more debt than all Labour governments combined, and doing virtually nothing to stop the deficit because their austerity measures don't work - they just penalise poorer people in society, while the more affluent members get choice tax breaks (again, look at the cushy deals that Osborne's signed up for with big business).

So yeah, this government with any kind of vague oversight or outside influence is a concern, especially when it's Boris Johnson (who got fired by The Times for being a liar, got fired by Michael Howard for being a liar, has been shown in this referendum campaign to be a massive f**king liar, and someone who has no interest in anything other than furthering his own carefully managed public image - you should also check out the shady dealings he got up to as Mayor of London - as a taster, the Garden Bridge for example), Michael Gove (who f**ked the education system massively and also dropped out the ever classic statement about wanting 'all school to be above average' - what?), Nicky Morgan (currently in the process of f**king up the education system where Michael Gove left off), Theresa May (she of illegal immigrant van advert and Psychoactive Substances Bill clusterf**k fame), possibly IDS (see earlier point) or Jeremy Hunt (see Dave's point, and general NHS destruction) trying to run this country, backed by primarily the right wing faction of the Tories.

That's not great.

Instead, all we've got so far from this is a massively depleted currency, our credit rating getting bummed, companies saying they're already looking at pulling jobs out of the UK, no real plan for how to move forward from this, Scotland (and maybe N.I.) poised to re-run their independence referendum and no-one willing to pull the trigger on Article 50 (but a lot more people from inside and outside the government alluding to the likelihood of that never happening).  Effectively, all the referendum has done is weakened the country as a whole (and thrown a spanner in the global economy to the tune of $3trillion losses on the stock market in 2 days), and created some pretty big divides within communities.

All this, just so that David Cameron could get some swing voters from UKIP for the 2015 election.  Worth it.

[jeff costello]

for blaming austerity!

regarding "real jobs": wouldn't the brexit be terrible for british farmes? farmers get a ton of subsidies to keep EU-goods compatibly priced.