tomturd Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Ali C said: click me Watched, quite boring (:p) but yes I understand and agree with his points. Some other videos that have stuck in my mind are: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsNXmfqQqOU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07c6n58 (I don't have FB so god knows if these have been everywhere already, they probably have). I really don't think we'll be given another chance to vote leave if we vote remain, not for another 40 years anyway. They won't screw up like this again for a long time. I've just realised that's really important bit about my thinking. The EU is OK with me right now, but what will it be like in 20 or 40 or 60 years time? Is 2 or 4 years (as forecast) of not-ideal-situation is worth it in the long run? I agree with most of the things the bremainers (forgive me for using that word) say, and I have no problem with free movement of people, paying the £180m a week, obviously it's good for trade and so on.. but part of me just really doesn't like the direction it seems to be headed, i.e. bigger is better. It may be just about OK today - it has it's niggles - and "we can change it from the inside" (lol) with our "seat at the table" (lol) but I wonder what it will be like in 20 years from now. They're already mentioning an EU Tax ID. I don't want Europe to issue me a number. They can keep their numbers. It's that sort of thing.. the EU slowly imposing itself on more and more aspects of everyone's everyday life (rather than just a trade agreement) that doesn't sit right with me. Still got 24 hrs to decide, plenty of time anyway. On a separate but sort of related note, and maybe a big factor into my slight disdain for the EU. You know if you set up a business, you don't need to register for VAT until you turn over ~80k (to make it easier for businesses to start up), right? Wrong. Not if you sell digital goods, like me. From day 1 you need to comply with EU Legislation - aimed for the likes to Amazon and Google to stop them selling ebooks in the country with the lowest VAT rate - that means: registering for VAT, recording 2 separate pieces of information about every customer to prove their location (geo located IP address and delivery address), charging the customer VAT at their local VAT rate (there are 20+ VAT rates which change over time), then every quarter reporting all of this back to HMRC so they can distribute the VAT you've collected back to their home countries. What if you plan to turn over £200 a month for your first year? Who is going to bother starting a business if they have to go through all this? Now that's bureaucracy and I've dealt with it first hand, twice. It sucks. And there's nothing the UK government can do about it. Oh, and I can almost guarantee Google and Amazon don't comply with this regulation, the only people it impacts are the little guys who aren't big enough to flout the rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 3 hours ago, Mark W said: There are many more similar things here too: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/21/boris-johnson-eu-brexit-supports_n_9286400.html I haven't read it (I get the gist) but isn't Corbyn the same deal? Granted Corbyn isn't like the leader of the remain side, but he's up there. Ever get the feeling these politicians aren't being straight with us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 In what way do you mean Corbyn's the same deal? He hasn't said much about this but for the most part he seems to be saying that both sides are shit, but Remain is the better option for us at the moment? In fairness to Corbyn as well he's been pretty close to his ideals for the decades he's been in parliament and working as an MP, whereas Boris has been a lying, swindling fanny who seems happy to go with whatever will boost his profile most. Corbyn's pretty much the antithesis of that with the way he didn't play up to all the media hype (which then seemed to turn them against him even more). He even said he'd been quiet about the referendum because he knew what he said would be skewed, whereas whatever Boris comes up with - or the Leave camp as a whole - is repeated without much criticism. Regarding more referendums, in the event of a Remain vote it'll be a lot easier to sort out a new referendum than it would be for us to get back in the EU in the event of a Leave vote... EDIT: For the record though I do agree that the majority of politicians are major dicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 19 minutes ago, Mark W said: In what way do you mean Corbyn's the same deal? He hasn't said much about this but for the most part he seems to be saying that both sides are shit, but Remain is the better option for us at the moment? In fairness to Corbyn as well he's been pretty close to his ideals for the decades he's been in parliament and working as an MP, whereas Boris has been a lying, swindling fanny who seems happy to go with whatever will boost his profile most. Corbyn's pretty much the antithesis of that with the way he didn't play up to all the media hype (which then seemed to turn them against him even more). He even said he'd been quiet about the referendum because he knew what he said would be skewed, whereas whatever Boris comes up with - or the Leave camp as a whole - is repeated without much criticism. Regarding more referendums, in the event of a Remain vote it'll be a lot easier to sort out a new referendum than it would be for us to get back in the EU in the event of a Leave vote... EDIT: For the record though I do agree that the majority of politicians are major dicks. I thought Corbyn was anti EU for a good while? I may be out of my depth here. Guardian to the rescue: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/20/labour-eurosceptics-accuse-corbyn-reversing-position-eu-referendum They have both 'switched sides'. "Regarding more referendums, in the event of a Remain vote it'll be a lot easier to sort out a new referendum than it would be for us to get back in the EU in the event of a Leave vote..." If we leave then Germany and France are going to have to fill a £10bn hole (per year) or the EU will have to cut its budget, and the EU is already spending more than it has. I think they might be willing to take us back, but I can see why they would be reluctant to say the least. I don't think we'll be given the option to vote again given how clear it is that all the major parties really, really don't want us to go, and are probably very much regretting even asking the question. P.S still very much on the fence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 It still pisses me off that a lot of the 'campaigns' or at least the news about the referendum have just been random celebrities joining sides. 'David Beckham backs Remain'... Who the f**k cares? Why is that news or in any way relevant? It just seems to have been a really poorly executed process on all fronts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Harrison Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 The whole thing is a loss either way. Look how this whole thing as divided us, it's a f'cking embarassment for our country and just reminds me how many stupid ignorant people there are here. My registration has been f'cked up anyway so I can't vote, and I don't even care, it's a goddamn shambles and I hate it. If I didn't have family and friends in this country I'd gladly never come back here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusevelt Posted June 22, 2016 Report Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) My Metro news app just sent me tomorrow's headline 5-6 hours early. Normally I get tomorrow's front page headline around 6am, but I just received now. Edited June 23, 2016 by Rusevelt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Why is the Leave campaign still spouting the £350M figure that has been shown to be only part of the story? I had a leaflet through the door yesterday that stated that figure at least three times. Also it being stated that this is 'our last chance to leave the EU'... how exactly do they come to that? If things went tits up pretty sure the Government could pull the plug at any time in the future (with or without a referendum). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Booth Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 I'm in, I think from a business point of view for me the leave campaign could cripple me for a long time till the sterling comes good again. Plus I think from a travel point of view things would be a lot more expensive/difficult. Long term I think leave could possibly be a good thing but I doubt our generation will live long enough to see any serious reward from this vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 @tomturd - fair enough. Not really sure why Corbyn's come into it anyway though in this instance? My beef with BoJo is him becoming some figurehead as it's a perfect career opportunity for him rather than being an ideological stance, whereas Corbyn's been trying to keep a relatively low profile (as low as it can be as leader of opposition). @monkeyseemonkeydo - because they're not really being challenged about it. They've been told to stop using it as it's a massively misleading statement but they're still banging on about it, and it still seems to be some central plank of their campaign. Same with the whole "That's £350mn we could spend on the NHS", the NHS that all the big dogs behind the Leave campaign have said they'd like to privatise. It's not those pesky immigrants f**king the NHS, it's George Osborne and Jeremy Hunt doing that. Immigrants aren't trying to impose unlawful Junior Doctor contracts, our government is. Immigrants aren't massively cutting funding for the NHS and selling shit off to private companies (the most recent example of sketchy f**ks they're selling service contracts off to: http://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2016/06/17/union-calls-for-inquiry-after-bailiffs-seize-ambulances-as-contractor-goes-bust/), our government are. Immigrants aren't f**king up social care, again it's our government. Immigrants are less likely to be claiming benefits and draining from the state that way, and also overall contribute more to the treasury than they take out, so that whole line of argument is void yet still gets plenty of time in the spotlight. @Tom Booth - Life will be more expensive for everyone in general - that's the whole thing I don't really get. Even the people at the forefront of the Leave campaign have said that it'll be "worth it" in the long run (although probably easier for multi-millionaires to say that), so all the people going "It'll be fine..." seem to be underestimating thing. Even Michael Gove going "People have had enough of experts" when challenged to find one 'expert' who backed his assertions about Leave being better for us economically. As one example of this: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-crash-pound-living-standards-george-soros Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadManMike Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 As if "Brexit" isn't a shit enough word, people are pronouncing it "Bregzid". I'm voting in tonight, I haven't seen any good reasons to vote out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 26 minutes ago, Mark W said: Michael Gove The fact that cunt is in the outie camp should be enough for anyone to vote in... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 will the rest of europe be asked whether we still want you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 @tomturd Have you made a decision yet? I did some reading last night and made my mind up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusevelt Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Just couldn't help but laugh at The Sun newspaper Independence Day front cover to coincide with release of the new movie https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1326816/we-urge-you-to-make-history-and-win-back-britains-freedom-believe-in-yourself-and-our-countrys-greatness-vote-leave/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 Well I just voted. In the end I had to vote remain. I still think long term it could be better for us to leave economically (and I mean that as 50/50 guess), it's just all the other shit that has attached itself to leave that means I can no longer just spoil. stuff like all the blatantly racist/xenophobic bullshit propaganda that has been plastered over the streets, on the telly and through my letterbox. just wow. Fairly disgusting. So yeah - remain - I'm not going to let the side that's only got "we don't like the foreign boys" as its only sound solid argument win. Also - whilst I concede that long term economics are pretty much unforseeable, short term it's pretty clear it's a major f**k up (even just having the vote is going to cause mayhem), and so I've voted as well for the first time partly for a short term result (selfishly) as I've got a hulking great mortgage that will need renewing in 2 years, and our short term finances my be hit soon too by a change in lifestyle. The only positive is that the Tories may shred themselves to bits over the results. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 45 minutes ago, Mikee said: @tomturd Have you made a decision yet? I did some reading last night and made my mind up. Nope. Leaning towards in, but there's a big nagging part of me saying noooo. I will be equally happy if we stay or go. Lots of people in my situation will be saying that (1 in 6 are undecided, I think), and I think most will lean to "in" when pushed to make a decision. Maybe I should vote out to level the numbers for us lot a bit. I don't really like the fact that on paper my "in" vote (which is based on like: 30% in, 30% out, 40% oh crap I just need to choose one) has just as much weight as David Camerons "in" vote. What have you gone for? 40 minutes ago, manuel said: Fairly disgusting. Yep. I wonder how many people would be more prepared to vote leave if the leave campaign wasn't associated with this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 38 minutes ago, manuel said: fuuck, that's pretty evil. possibly worse than the stuff we get from the right-wingers here in austria. the rhetorics are usually pretty harsh too, but the posters are usually more feelgoody with some kind of borderline-retarded slogan that sounds good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, jeff costello said: fuuck, that's pretty evil. possibly worse than the stuff we get from the right-wingers here in austria. the rhetorics are usually pretty harsh too, but the posters are usually more feelgoody with some kind of borderline-retarded slogan that sounds good. Just so you don't go away thinking this is the official line of half of Britain, the actual leave campaign were quick to point out that this guy (Farage) isn't actually part of them. He, or UKIP (his party) made this poster off their own back. Leave voters are not necessarily UKIP supporters (but UKIP supporters are leave voters). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, tomturd said: I don't really like the fact that on paper my "in" vote (which is based on like: 30% in, 30% out, 40% oh crap I just need to choose one) has just as much weight as David Camerons "in" vote. How do you mean, out of interest? The people going "I'm going to vote leave because of my gut instinct" is a little concerning. This is a pretty major decision, so to not actually look into anything to do with it but then just vote on a whim isn't really great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomturd Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, Mark W said: How do you mean, out of interest? The people going "I'm going to vote leave because of my gut instinct" is a little concerning. This is a pretty major decision, so to not actually look into anything to do with it but then just vote on a whim isn't really great. Errr, not sure if you're suggesting I haven't actually looked into anything to do with it, if you are then quite simply: you're wrong Say there were 10 people in the UK. 1 is David Cameron, 2 are in, 2 are out and 5 are undecided. If the undecided vote "in" (which I suspect they would when pushed) then you get a total vote of 80% "in", even though only 30% really strongly believe "in" is the right vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 15 minutes ago, tomturd said: Just so you don't go away thinking this is the official line of half of Britain, the actual leave campaign were quick to point out that this guy (Farage) isn't actually part of them. He, or UKIP (his party) made this poster off their own back. Leave voters are not necessarily UKIP supporters (but UKIP supporters are leave voters). no worries, i wasn't thinking that at all. we have just about the same situation here right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, tomturd said: Errr, not sure if you're suggesting I haven't actually looked into anything to do with it, if you are then quite simply: you're wrong Nah, I didn't mean that at all - apologies if it came across that way! That was a separate thing from seeing some posts on FB. Regarding the vote thing, David Cameron is still 'just a person in the UK' though, in the same way Farage, Johnson and so on are. In that example you mentioned before, even if it was 'only' 30% who strongly believe they should be in, that's still 10% more than those who believe in voting out so it'd still be the right result overall? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, jeff costello said: no worries, i wasn't thinking that at all. we have just about the same situation here right now. Seems it's a pretty common thing everywhere at the moment - there's been a rise in far/extreme right parties everywhere in Europe, and you just have to look at Donald Trump potentially being able to become president of the US based on a platform of building a wall and keeping Mexicans and Muslims out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted June 23, 2016 Report Share Posted June 23, 2016 40 minutes ago, tomturd said: What have you gone for? I am at work and am yet to go to the polling station, but it will be a leave vote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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