EU Referendum

[J.KYDD]

So then chaps. 

Referendum is in just over 2 weeks. Interested to see what the general TF consensus is

[forteh]

I think in but with different terms, but hey I'm an engineer not a politician, it's likely to be shite whichever way you look at it

edit: why isn't there a shake it all about option?

Edited June 6, 2016 by forteh

[TROYston]

I dont take part in any vote whatsoever because i literally do not give a f**k. 

For me, the question may aswell read: which lies do you like the most?

And for the Patriotic people out there who wish to say that people fought for our right to vote ... blahdeblahdeba... It is my right to choose to vote or not.
 

 

[Mark W]

In.

No real solid plan in place for an exit (bearing in mind the "masterminds" behind it are Gove who f**ked the education system, Boris Johnson who sold out London to his well-off friends, IDS who is a massive law-breaking fanny, etc.), and the ones people are quoting have a host of issues with them (generally still involving them having to accept freedom of movement which seems to be the main thing people would be voting against) or just don't really have any relevance to our position in relation to the other countries involved.

[MadManMike]

The problem for me is that both sides are spewing bullshit.

Nobody knows what's going to happen either way, but I have a feeling we're better as we are, so based on that I'm voting in.

But honestly, along with some scaremongering posts on FB, not much information is out there that isn't massively biased either way.

[dann2707]

I honestly have no idea what it is. 

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

Same as with the Scottish one (which I didn't get to vote in being an adopted southern softie)- the risk of leaving with no clue how things might work out just isn't worth it. Again like the Scotland thing I think we've already got a fairly good deal going and the power to have our cake and still eat at least some of it.

[ooo]

I agree, If we leave we need a plan of what to do, and I don't feel like we do have one. 

Plus a major point is we would essentially be placing a bet that the Euro wouldn't be a future trading currency of oil, and it's way to soon to place that bet.

I have a (crazy) theory that we would end up partnering with USA with a unified currency if we leave. The US is likely to loose its status as the worlds reserve currency, lots of nations are moving against them with china selling off all their usd etc... I also heard that some of the middle east nations had a meeting to discuss trading oil in Euro,Yen and Renminbi. Also it is logical for the US to clear their huge debt by creating a new currency, so when the GBP fell in value as well then the UK would get so desperate that they will join the USA and form a new currency starting with a trade partnership. The value of the GBP falls every time it looks like public opinion says we will leave the EU. So it we would be forced to do it.

Plus we don't use the Euro so we aren't really in Europe but we are at the same time. We have an unusually good position right now that means we can just move to the winning side, but we need to know who is going to win before we move.

[Mark W]

1 hour ago, MadManMike said:

The problem for me is that both sides are spewing bullshit.

Nobody knows what's going to happen either way, but I have a feeling we're better as we are, so based on that I'm voting in.

But honestly, along with some scaremongering posts on FB, not much information is out there that isn't massively biased either way.

Read an interesting point about the different arguments a week or two ago.

Basically, the government is backing 'Remain', but due to them allowing their ministers/members to choose what they want to back it means you've got some high profile people backing the 'Leave' camp.  Cameron & co. are trying to make sure that their party doesn't get so fractured that they end up being totally boned after the refendum - whichever way it goes - so they're having to hold back a little with their responses/arguments because they don't want to alienate the 'Leave' members of their party too much.  On the other hand, the 'Leave' group are hoping that if they win then there'll be no option but for Cameron to hit the GTFO button, and that leaves room for them to get themselves into some cushy jobs (hence Boris Johnson deciding to go with 'Leave' purely because it meant more spotlight on him as he'd become the de facto figurehead of it).  If the 'Remain' camp win then Cameron has to keep them in place because otherwise he'd look like even more of a twat than normal.  Consequently, some of the 'Leave' camp have gotten quite personal but the 'Remain' camp can't openly criticise them or their credibility (e.g. when Boris is making shit up about bunches of bananas, their defence secretary is "Either stupid or a liar" and is mis-quoting things, etc.) so they're having to try and change tack a bit.

It means Boris can play up to his public persona, and mask over all the really shady shit he did in the end of his Mayor of London stint, some of which it seems might end up in the courts at some point.  

Fully agree there's lying being done on both sides, but 'Leave' won't/don't/can't get called on it as much (again, another example, their oft-repeated quote of how much we pay to be in Europe a day which doesn't factor in the rebate we get, nor the amount we get back per day).

[manuel]

I'm gonna spoil again. 

As has been said previously - there is no plan, and no facts on either side of the argument to make me think this vote is anything other than a pure guess.

I don't think the public should have been given the choice! We elect a bunch of idiots to deal with this sort of thing don't we? To make the best decisions on incredibly complex issues that "the common man" doesn't understand/give a f**k about?

 

At work many people are voting out "because of the immigrants" as they think an out result would mean we just close the borders and shut up shop (As do Claire's parents! Lol), and that that's a good thing.

 

The country is wasting millions of £££ on this referendum. All the shit being slapped about by both sides is just embarrassing. I cannot wait for it to be over.

 

 

 

 

[Ali C]

In vote here, I was on the fence for a while as I didn't know anything about it, some of the leave arguments seemed appealing to someone with no knowledge but the more I looked into it and after reading articles from informed non corrupt people the in vote made more sense.
 

[bikeperson45]

1 hour ago, manuel said:

I don't think the public should have been given the choice!

I completely agree with this - If there's a country of people voting who are just as non-educated on this as me I think that's the wrong way of doing things. 

[Mark W]

Yeah, I think the Conservatives didn't think it'd ever come to this.  It was clearly some form of 'Hail Mary' type thing to swing some UKIP voters right before the election, and if they'd had a coalition government then the other party would inevitably have stopped this from happening.  Completely f**king inexplicably considering how they're absolutely raping this country, they somehow got a majority and consequently - despite their track record on other things - they couldn't just U-turn their way out of it.

It's not a debate that's been handled well, and it seems that people really want to make an informed decision but it's just turned into a popularity contest again, hence Boris Johnson getting wheeled out in front of the press all the time along with his new friend Nigel Farage to drop out some sound bites and look clumsy.

[Danny]

On 6/8/2016 at 8:03 PM, manuel said:

At work many people are voting out "because of the immigrants" as they think an out result would mean we just close the borders and shut up shop (As do Claire's parents! Lol), and that that's a good thing.

Immigration is a stupid argument.  Norway are not in the EU but to negotiate trade deals with the EU they agreed to free movement of all EU individuals.

If we did leave (which i highly doubt), we would likely end up in the same situation.

[ooo]

This is a good article, that talks about what will happen financially (we loose money if we exit). Our markets and currency devalue massively.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/14/ftse-100-slides-towards-6000-and-pound-falls-as-brexit-fears-dri/

Also I have heard some companies saying they will close in the UK or cut huge amount of jobs.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ooo

[Mark W]

Yep, seeing the £ slide over the past few months has been impressive.  Read something that pointed out that it takes 2 years to get out of the EU, so for the 2 years from the 'Brexit' vote until we fully negotiate the exit no-one's going to want to invest in the £/the UK because it's a complete unknown quantity.  It means our economy would, at best, plateau at this lower level for a few years with us then having to try to negotiate some new trade deals from a much weaker position.  Nothing good about that.

This is also worth a read too: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html  A little snippet:

"In a survey of 1,000 people, weighted to represent the nation’s demographic profile in terms of age, gender, ethnicity and other factors, respondents claimed that, on average, 15 per cent of the UK population are EU immigrants. That would be 10.5m people. The correct figure is 3.5m. Those who intend to vote Leave in the referendum put the figure at 20 per cent. ‘Remainers’ put the figure at 10 per cent."

The fact the 'Leave' favouring people put immigration levels at 20% is quite something.

I can kind of see this being another thing like the Election where it's close but then come voting time everyone goes for the shittest option available.

[Jolfa]

My in vote was cast yesterday thanks to my sister

Couldn't stand idly by and watch the UK f**k up again just because I'm the wrong side of the world, watching the last general election results in Aus was painful!

[J.KYDD]

I sent off my IN vote by post yesterday. 

[ooo]

Yeah there are really valid reasons to leave, but immigration just isn't one. The EU has a terrible political system, and its not democratic. To make things worse they are terrible at making policies and a lot of people are saying that the EU is failing economically. The EU is a pile of poo but leaving this way with cause a economic storm that is purely down to the opinion of huge numbers of people that invest and gamble on markets. The thing that sucks is that some people will loose their jobs and their homes over this. I think if we want to leave we need to have systems in place to protect those people before we actually do it.

 

14 hours ago, Mark W said:

This is also worth a read too

That's actually scary.

[Rusevelt]

Anyone watching the big TV debate being aired this evening?

[Danny]

I watched it and got really pissed off with the leave crew ending each sentence 'take back control'.

[Mikee]

i'm still floating around the middle of the debate. Though slightly swaying towards leave.

[tomturd]

26 minutes ago, Mikee said:

i'm still floating around the middle of the debate.

Same.

I can't fathom how the hardcore "bremainers" or "brexiters" can't see, or give a second thought to any possible benefits of voting the opposite way. It seems like it's a solid "I'm definitely voting in" or "I'm definitely voting out" without appearing to give the other option more than a nano-second of thought.

I might flip a coin.

[Ali C]

I'd recommend watching this if you're still on the fence

click me

It's a little long sorry but if I'm going to listen to anyone it's going to be someone who's actually spent his academic life studying the exact issues we're now voting on. Give it a watch as it's pretty good and will hopefully give you a bit more of an insight.

My other thought is that unless you are TOTALLY convinced we should leave, I'd still suggest voting to remain. If we leave that's almost definitely an irreversible step and if you voted for it and then decide that you'd rather stay then it's too late. If we stay then further down the line think that shits gotten worse then we can still leave! I think it's waaaaaaay too early to leave the EU if at all and it would be a tragedy if we left and then found out it was the wrong thing to do. 

[Mark W]

It's mainly who's currently in power that concerns me.  They've already retrospectively changed laws and stripped away various other freedoms of ours whilst in power, so if they're then re-writing the entire rulebook that's some f**king bad times.  Read a good suggestion by someone that they should have set it so there was an election afterwards whatever the outcome, and then each party could campaign based on what their post split/join view would be.  That way there'd be more of a solid thing to aim at rather than just getting opportunistic pricks like Boris Johnson nailing their colours to a particular mast to try and further their own careers.  To quote BoJo from his own column in Feb 2016:

“It is also true that the single market is of considerable value to many UK companies and consumers, and that leaving would cause at least some business uncertainty, while embroiling the Government for several years in a fiddly process of negotiating new arrangements, so diverting energy from the real problems of this country – low skills, low social mobility, low investment etc – that have nothing to do with Europe.”

There are many more similar things here too: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2016/02/21/boris-johnson-eu-brexit-supports_n_9286400.html

I don't see this is as a thing to vote on based purely on personalities of those involved (as Cameron, Osborne et al are a bunch of pricks too), but nothing that the Leave camp have really said has given a solid indication as to what we'd actually gain/benefit from doing it.  It seems to largely be based on half-truths/myths and pure guesswork.  I'm aware that it's going to be the same for Remain, but the markets at least (the fluctuating £ in correlation with the popularity of a leave vote) back up what all the people 'in the know' appear to be suggesting.  As Ali said, that video's well worth a watch - it covers a lot of very, very popular misconceptions.