Sidehop technique/strength question

[niconj]

39 minutes ago, AndyT said:

Could you mind posting it up for everyone to see??

 

I'm sure a lot of people would Ike to hear it, myself included.

Probably a routine similar to the one I currently do. Squats, deadlifts etc. Yesterday I did my personal best in dealifts btw.180kg.  I adapted the program a little but it seems to work pretty well for me. Will go over to plyometrics for the next 6 week after this program.

[jeff costello]

i'm back at appr. 40cm sidehops (no brakes) which i'm really happy with right now. i didn't ride for a few months in autumn/winter and basically lost all sidehop skills.

my biggest issure right now is to get more comfortable with the sideways movement. so i can stay more parallel to the wall / move further back from the wall. and so i don't have to (at least partly) have to hover the front wheel over the obstacle.

Edited February 7, 2016 by jeff costello

[niconj]

 

A bit more preload than in the last video and a bit more of letting open the rear brake. Compared to what I see here everyday this is nothing but I'm still satisfied with it. What I also figured is that I should learn the side hop off both wheels as I have to have the rear brake open longer in order to get up.

Edited February 7, 2016 by niconj

[AndyT]

Can you touch your toes? Look incredibly stiff, very weak people can use only technique to go much higher, that's a large deadlift number but you look like a solid block of muscle.

[niconj]

...

Edited February 7, 2016 by niconj

[niconj]

I can but with a lot of effort. I also try to get more flexible but this is harder than getting muscles.

The technique I've been struggling with for quite some while now and it really sucks knowing what you just confirmed.

34 minutes ago, AndyT said:

Can you touch your toes? Look incredibly stiff, very weak people can use only technique to go much higher, that's a large deadlift number but you look like a solid block of muscle.

 

Edited February 7, 2016 by niconj

[AndyT]

Wasn't trying to be mean at all, and I'm about to try your strength regiment starting this week... 

 

I I would say that yoga helped me out a great deal, I can place my hands under my feet (Palm to bottom of foot) in a full stretch with ease- but I don't have those #s! I am scared of becoming stiff with doing lots of weights, we will see how the next weeks go- I've always found stretching to be as much of a benefit  to my riding as strength training.

 explosivity also seems to be lacking in that video of you- plyometrics is a really easy thing you can add into your practice, just find a wall with varying heights and do a full squat next to it then jump up as high as you can. Keep increasing the height - you'll be sidehopping like a monster once this and your technique come in line.

[niconj]

17 minutes ago, AndyT said:

Wasn't trying to be mean at all, and I'm about to try your strength regiment starting this week... 

 

I I would say that yoga helped me out a great deal, I can place my hands under my feet (Palm to bottom of foot) in a full stretch with ease- but I don't have those #s! I am scared of becoming stiff with doing lots of weights, we will see how the next weeks go- I've always found stretching to be as much of a benefit  to my riding as strength training.

 explosivity also seems to be lacking in that video of you- plyometrics is a really easy thing you can add into your practice, just find a wall with varying heights and do a full squat next to it then jump up as high as you can. Keep increasing the height - you'll be sidehopping like a monster once this and your technique come in line.

Funny that you should say that. In the video it doesn't show but I'm a pretty explosive guy, having done plyometrics a looooot. I just can't get it transferred to trials. Playing basketball is different I guess.

[AndyT]

Well then the only enemy is your brain!

 Try to visualize every aspect of the move- the right move.. Watch a slow motion video of yourself and watch video of top pros doing it in slow motion as well. Try to be mindful and think about how you would change your body to be more like the pros technique- no matter how strange it feels.  

In the biggest sidehops how far you can tuck is everything. This takes flexibility!! 

 

I would say stop weightlifting - start yoga every day, take it slow, after 1-2 months of yoga begin to spend more time in the gym. Flexibility is hard, but it just takes time..

[niconj]

Thanks. I will at least do the stretching part but I don't think I can leave the weights untouched.  I don't really think that weight lifting and being inflexible have any correlation really. Just look at Jean-Claude Van Damme. He is/was rather strong and still flexible. It's just that you have to stretch a lot, what I didn't do but will start doing. So I can still do my weight routine AND be flexible by the end of this year.

About the tucking part when side hopping. I still have to get my mind around the jumping well part, the tucking I don't really think about when doing side hops. I could probably put another pallet on that wall and get onto it easily when tucking more. Will do the visualization part you were writing about.

[ogre]

5 hours ago, niconj said:

I don't really think that weight lifting and being inflexible have any correlation really. Just look at Jean-Claude Van Damme. He is/was rather strong and still flexible. It's just that you have to stretch a lot, what I didn't do but will start doing. So I can still do my weight routine AND be flexible by the end of this year.

They have a direct correlation. i have overtrained my leg strength for years; i took up rowing in october 2015 and i've spent the last 4 months undoing alot of the 'damage' that over training strength has done. you need to be stretching the ever loving shit out of your hamstrings... i think it's why i've struggled with the siddles the same as you.

[niconj]

1 minute ago, ogre said:

They have a direct correlation. i have overtrained my leg strength for years; i took up rowing in october 2015 and i've spent the last 4 months undoing alot of the 'damage' that over training strength has done. you need to be stretching the ever loving shit out of your hamstrings... i think it's why i've struggled with the siddles the same as you.

The correlation is rather indirect as my example of Jean-Claude shows. Direct would mean weightlifting = inflexible = every bodybuilder is inflexible, which isn't the case.

But yeah... you are right, I need to do stretching a lot and I have already outlined a routine that I will be doing everyday. I think I might be able to sidehop 7 pallets by the end of this year. Right now I'm at 5 1/2.

[onzatpro09]

2 hours ago, niconj said:

The correlation is rather indirect as my example of Jean-Claude shows. Direct would mean weightlifting = inflexible = every bodybuilder is inflexible, which isn't the case.

That's obviously because Claude doesn't just lift; he does flexibility training too.

If you focus solely on building muscle, you will sacrifice flexibility unless you actively work on sorting that too.

[jeff costello]

isn't trial basically lifting bikes?

[ogre]

3 hours ago, niconj said:

The correlation is rather indirect as my example of Jean-Claude shows. Direct would mean weightlifting = inflexible = every bodybuilder is inflexible, which isn't the case.

But yeah... you are right, I need to do stretching a lot and I have already outlined a routine that I will be doing everyday. I think I might be able to sidehop 7 pallets by the end of this year. Right now I'm at 5 1/2.

no the relationship is direct; if you develop more strength and mass and don't do any stretches you would  become less flexible that someone who doesn't lift and doesn't stretch (or this is roughly the deal my coach explained to me)

[ooo]

yeah it is like ogre said but they aren't exclusive, you can be strong and flexible but the flexibility reduces speed because you have lengthened the muscle.

It seems like a complex relationship but flexibility is roughly about muscle length and "strength" is about muscle width. Both require and increase in muscle mass. If you just train for strength your body cheats by shortening the muscle so you can get a greater strength increase without increasing muscle mass proportionately.

If you train strength and flexibilty you will progress slower in each than you would in one individually.

There's a book called warrior speed by ted weinmann that catalogues all the different relationships in the body and explains them.

Basically you want your minimum range of motion for your sport to get the most efficient speed and power from a muscle. If you look into MMA this is quite a popular topic.

[niconj]

Stretching doesn't lengthen the muscle and the correlation is indirect.

Just read into it a bit more. There's no way you can lengthen the muscle. The only thing stretching achieves is that you can have your muscles fully relax. Once you reach a certain point in order to protect other parts* from getting injured, the muscle automatically contracts. Stretching helps you to exceed this point to a certain extend.

Anyways... I think we can agree on the point that flexibility helps in trials.

*Not going into the anatomy of our body now. 

Edited February 8, 2016 by niconj

[ooo]

11 minutes ago, niconj said:

Stretching doesn't lengthen the muscle and the correlation is indirect.

I mean operational length, the science is still very sketchy. You and ogre are both right is what I mean to say, the body can do both but as a sacrifice to one or the other. If you do strength training you quickly notice yourself get tight maybe after a few weeks. But flexibility is weird because if you stretch alot you find your strength goes up too, so what a lot of people are saying is that the contraction speed reduces, because the operational point is further away from full contraction. 

When you sidehop you don't just want to lift something heavy you want to accelerate enough to overcome gravity, so there is a balance point between the three attributes.

[ooo]

also have you looked into pelvic tilt at all, my pelvis tucks under and I think most people who do sports have the same problem.

IMO its not just getting enough length on the glutes and hamstring to compress, but to get the pelvis in an optimum position so that there is no pressure on the spine (same as deadlift). So along with stretching the glutes/hams also add strengthening the lower back so that it can hold the pelvis. I think this should put the glutes and hams in a position to output maximum power.

 

[AndyT]

Well I'm going to do yoga for the next 30 minutes then head to the gym for leg day

 

 

[Pít]

On 2016. 02. 07. at 6:39 PM, niconj said:

*february video*

I use the same technique (but towards wrong side unfortunatelly). I'm not a good sidehopper but I can tell you that you can already jump at least 25 cm higher than that wall, with this strenght, technique, etc
Also, moving the rear wheel further from the wall while the front stays near (so a non-zero angle of the frame and the wall when viewing from above) helped me to land on the front wheel - sorry, thats hard to explain in English.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Pít

[niconj]

After yesterdays usual squat workout I opted for half an hour of intense stretching. It was harder than the sets of squats I did before that.  Will do this everyday now hoping to get some results by the end of the summer.

[AndyT]

Sound good and I wish you luck... After doing my first leg day in that workout you posted I could barely walk... Still forced myself to yoga + road ride.

 

would still like to know Damon's workout, the workout you posted is just for strength but I wonder if he does a workout more sport specific..

[niconj]

12 hours ago, AndyT said:

Sound good and I wish you luck... After doing my first leg day in that workout you posted I could barely walk... Still forced myself to yoga + road ride.

would still like to know Damon's workout, the workout you posted is just for strength but I wonder if he does a workout more sport specific..

Well, jumping is about strength. You'd be surprised if you saw the standing verticals of powerlifters. What I do and did when still playing professional basketball is use this strength playing ball. Now I use it in trials as well. 

I think that you need pure strength to start with and also the sport using it. So I think you are fine. I'm in the 4th week of the workout and will go over to plyometrics after this. There's a programm called Air Alert III*, mainly designed for Basketball but it's about increasing your vertical, which helps in trials as well. It's the hardest program I've done so far. Haven't had that many cramps in my entire life.

BTW: Did you do the mentioned workout with or without spotter. Without someone helping you, you won't really benifit as you cannot kill your muscles on the last set.

 

*" The final week is designed to completely exhaust and breakdown the jumping muscles and prepare them for final recovery. "

Edited February 10, 2016 by niconj

[AndyT]

19 hours ago, niconj said:

Well, jumping is about strength. You'd be surprised if you saw the standing verticals of powerlifters. What I do and did when still playing professional basketball is use this strength playing ball. Now I use it in trials as well. 

I think that you need pure strength to start with and also the sport using it. So I think you are fine. I'm in the 4th week of the workout and will go over to plyometrics after this. There's a programm called Air Alert III*, mainly designed for Basketball but it's about increasing your vertical, which helps in trials as well. It's the hardest program I've done so far. Haven't had that many cramps in my entire life.

BTW: Did you do the mentioned workout with or without spotter. Without someone helping you, you won't really benifit as you cannot kill your muscles on the last set.

 

*" The final week is designed to completely exhaust and breakdown the jumping muscles and prepare them for final recovery. "

I do what I can with a spotter, ideally everything... Have no partner, so opt for barbells instead of Dumbbells on bench (did close grip today w a spot).

leg day I had no spotter. 2 days later and I can still barely walk, I think it's just fine.

Still would like to know Damon's

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by AndyT