jeff costello Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 i've been slowly trying to-fronts (very timidly, just on flat earth) and now i've noticed that the headset has developed some play under force. when i hit the front brake and heavily lean on the bars, i can sense it move quite a bit. i've took it apart and everything seems to run smooth and sit tight. the headnut is as tight as i can do by hand (with a pretty big allen wrench). the forks are echo urban and the headset is some kind of echo too (TR, i think). is that normal with trial bikes or is my headset damaged? if i keep riding like this will it possibly damage my headtube? or can i just keep riding it until the headset falls properly apart? thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forteh Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Sounds like the steerer tube has bent or the headtube had flared. Is the movement fore and aft relative to the frame? Try turning the front wheel through 90° and see if you can get the headset to clunk/move, if it does I would suspect the headtube. If it only moves in the direction of the wheel then I would suspect the steerer tube, however aluminum steerers will tend to simply snap than bend. If the headtube is flared there isn't much you can do about it unfortunately, you might be able to get a bit of steel shim to sit in there but it's never going to be a good solution and very difficult to get straight in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 (edited) i think i solved it! luckily it was none of that. Try turning the front wheel through 90° and see if you can get the headset to clunk/move thanks! this helped me find the culprit! turning the wheel around, i could more clearly see it moving. it was definitely the steerer shaft moving around. the mysterious problem was: i had been using a hope spacer set and (i think) it sits wrongly on the top part of the echo headset. with the wrong spacer i could not get enough tension from the headnut. i added the original echo-spacer at the bottom and the wobble's now gone. the echo spacer is visibly thinner than the hope ones. Edited June 16, 2015 by jeff costello 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forteh Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Good stuff, always nice when it's something simple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Sounds like your stem want sitting high enough so the top cap was tightening on to the steerer and not acting on the headset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 that was my first guess as well. but i checked and i had appr. 3mm of space between top of steerer and top of stem. my explanation is this: the top washer of the echo headset has a bit of a groove and the echo spacer fits right in there. while the fatter hope one just sits on top. no idea whether this is really true though. you can see the groove a little bit in this pic (the silver one on the left): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Fair enough . One thing that's caught me out before when things are tight is when the top cap has a machined rebate so that although the outer part is sitting on the stem the lower, smaller diameter part is hitting the steerer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bing Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Echo headsets have the top race sat inside the top cup when they are set up right, so it looks like a one piece unit. Then you just put your spacers on top of that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) i think the problem's still there. probably the spacer wasn't it after all. quick question for elimination: with headsets (echo in my case) are the top and bottom bearing identical? - in other words: do i have to check whether they are mounted in the correct position? Edited June 25, 2015 by jeff costello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 They will be for the Echo headset as far as I'm aware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) thanks! but no use anymore. i damaged the top bearing trying to pry it out.. now running a botch job of echo cups and ritchey bearing / crown race. we'll see what happens... Edited June 25, 2015 by jeff costello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 How did you 'damage' it? The bearings are pretty resilient, and you can maul the bearing covers/races a bit without it being too much trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 (edited) while trying to leverage the thing out with a screwdriver (upper cup stuck in there pretty good) the thing came out in pieces: first the inner ring, then the rest. even a ball popped out. if it were really necessary, put back together i think it would work for a few more day. but i had the ritchey bearings around and they fit. didn't use the ritchey cups, top plastic race and cover though, because they are superugly. seems to work fine for now. taking it for a test ride tomorrow morning. Edited June 25, 2015 by jeff costello Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forteh Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 If the bearing collapsed and came out in pieces then that could explain your previous clunking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 botch job still wobbled. now running the whole ritchey headset. no wobble for now.... i really hate the person who designed that clunker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't really get how you had so many problems with that headset - it's pretty much the most simple one you can get Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 i've been using it for about a year and a half, usually for an hour a day. so maybe it might be old age? beginner stuff only though, no to-fronts or hooks or any of that. also i've moved the headset from my inspired to my new mod last christmas (i normally leave headsets in place, but funds were small), maybe i did some damage then. at least the new one doesn't move, even if i lean on it my heaviest. even with the botch job i could clearly see the steerer move in the hole of the top bearing. but i'll see for real when i take it for a ride tomorrow morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 25, 2015 Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 The steerer is usually going to have a bit of movement around the centre of the bearing races, that's why they've got the tapered washers/races to sit in them so you can get the tension adjusted properly. When the headset is properly fitted you shouldn't be able to see the bearings at all, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2015 no no no, of course i couldn't see the bearing. there's the top cap in the way. i added this only to properly describe where i saw it moving. since i've now exchanged every party involved apart from the frame, i hope i'm fine now. thanks for your constant effort and good advice (and everyone else's of course). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 ugly, but it works. no wobble after the first ride. so success, i hope. maybe the bottom cup of the echo headset was the real culprit. the bearing always immediately slid out of it when i took the think apart. general last question about trials and headsets: do headsets get loose after a while of trials use and need re-tensioning? or do you just set it up once and it's set forever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Wood Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 general last question about trials and headsets: do headsets get loose after a while of trials use and need re-tensioning? or do you just set it up once and it's set forever? Quite often need to be re-tensioned on the first ride once everything beds in, but then should be pretty much set after that. Certain headsets (like Kings) tend to need a bit more retensioning but the Echos are pretty much done after the first ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff costello Posted June 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 maybe the bottom cup of the echo headset was the real culprit. the bearing always immediately slid out of it when i took the think apart. That shouldn't really be an issue - the only part of the cup that plays any important role in how tight your headset is is the angled part of it. If you look at the new Trialtech Sport Lite headset it's pretty much just the angled shoulder of the cup and that's it, which should give you an idea of how much of a role it plays. Once everything's done up tight it should be good to go. I seem to remember I had to open up the slot in the top race of one of my Echo headsets for it to work properly, but I can't really remember why that was/what the issue had been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAMON WATSON. Posted June 27, 2015 Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 Do us a favour Put a few more spacers on 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dngr2self Posted June 27, 2015 Report Share Posted June 27, 2015 Do us a favour Put a few more spacers on Who put 10p in you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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