Market research - frame and parts manufacture

[ResoluteBikes]

Hello!

I would like to ask the trials community what they thought about the ideal frames or components for their trials bikes.

I am self employed and run a welding/ prototype engineering company. I am equipped to make frame assemblys and will soon be investing in a CNC milling machine. My main line of work has ran down and im now looking to take a side step with the skills and equipment I already have.

I have been a trials rider for many years and always wanted to build my own components. The reason for this research is to see wether this could be a viable business opportunity or just enjoy making my own bits.

I can quite see that I could manufacture frames or trick components for bikes, and as long as the price is right, I would be able to get these items stocked in online outlets or shops.

But what I would like to do is manufacture Titanium 20'' mod bike frames.

This post is to guage interest into this and see if it would be viable or just a side line and only sell 1 per year....

I would appreciate any input and also any design ideas you may have that you would like to become a reality.

Kindest regards,

Tom.

Resolute Engineering.

[BJ.]

Nowadays it's all about really short high bb bikes when it comes to 20" bikes.

There's a big gap in the market for a medium/low bb mod frame and there's not really anything out there much bigger than 1000 wheel base.

best thing you could possibly do would be to get A few old skool zoo's/echos and try and copy them but with a slightly more modern geometry.

[Mark W]

The sort of people who want an old school Zoo wouldn't want to pay limited run titanium frame prices though, whereas comp riders who run high BB/short WB bikes seem to be happy to pump money into frames.

[Luke Rainbird]

Take a look at Triton bikes.

As cool an idea as it is, batches would be incredibly small on parts and there's not a massive market for Ti frames really. When you throw in the added expense of materials there aren't huge numbers of people who'd be keen to lay out the funds, particularly without a few floating around tried and tested to build confidence.

By all means, build yourself and a few friends a frame/some parts and if they live up to the abuse start looking in to getting a little bigger, selling a few etc but start slow and take your time with it. There are countless "companies" (read: guys in sheds) who've tried this sort of thing over the years and the majority of them are no longer about after varying amounts of short-lived hype.

Having tested frames for a few different folks trying the same sort of thing as you, I'd really advise you to go own the "build for yourself, friends as a next step and anything else is a bonus" route rather than looking to jump quickly into something a little more commercial

[BJ.]

The sort of people who want an old school Zoo wouldn't want to pay limited run titanium frame prices though, whereas comp riders who run high BB/short WB bikes seem to be happy to pump money into frames.

I was aiming more at the structure of the older style frames rather than the geometry.

The older frames seem to last whereas modern frames have a shelf life of about 12 months.

But yeah it's a good point you raised.

[Paperclip]

I don't see how it would financially work to have a set-up as large as you would need and compete with the market we have today. Especially when the companies building our components on a majority will also do 10's-1000's of other components for other companies and just be non stop with orders. Unless you can get some stuff done on the side of normal work like you said before but even then you'd be competing with prices.

Do you have a email address, I have been looking at getting a bash ring made up for my new crank set-up if you do any bespoke work on the side?

[ResoluteBikes]

All good points, really appreciate it.

The thing with being a sub contract engineer is that sometimes im stacked out with work and other times iv got nothing. I rely upon other companies having either too much work and sub it out to me or they need the services I offer as they dont have the capabilities. The addition of a CNC machine I hope to buy soon is so I can build upon the projects and protypes I have already started and to add this to the list of services I offer as most of my customers who need welding services also need machining services which I currently cant fulfill.

This would indeed be a side line rather than to compete in the market.

'Trials Elite' my email address is resoluteengineering@outlook.com

if nothing else - I would like to invite anyone to call upon my services. Im trying to reach out in different areas and the trials bike market is full of top quality parts for people with good taste and appreciate good engineering.

Cheers.

[Ross McArthur]

All good points, really appreciate it.

'Trials Elite' my email address is resoluteengineering@outlook.com

His user name is "Paperclip"

BB mounted bash guards for 22 tooth front chain rings. Make those. Ta.

[bing]

Do you think you could make one of these? It's a dropout from a gt force full Susser. They are a weak design as they are cast alloy, not machined. A stainless steel version would be miles stronger

[ResoluteBikes]

It seems I can only make 1 more post until tomorrow as iv only just made this forum account and theres a post restriction?.

Oh ye 'Paperclip' thanks VVVVVVVVvV ; p

bing - Although thats exactly the sort of thing I will be able to make with a CNC machine it might be worth you talking to 'Pilo Machining'- hes made a very successful business out of just making dropouts for any bike you can think of. Not that I want to turn you away but as yet i cant make that and hes got one on his website im sure.

I will continue to work for my customers and develop my ideas and when I think iv got something you might want to look at il give you all a shout on here.

Untill then, I live in Wiltshire and If anyone needs weld repairs or help with their projects then give me a shout.

Tom Pearce,

resoluteengineering@outlook.com

[Greetings]

start slow and take your time with it. There are countless "companies" (read: guys in sheds) who've tried this sort of thing over the years and the majority of them are no longer about after varying amounts of short-lived hype.

Can't stress enough how important this is. Trials is not a massive market, if anything it's already over saturated.

There are very few success stories in trials, the most notable recent one being Marino. But their success is based around factors which are not present in the UK, or at least I don't think they are based on my observations.

To add to Luke's post, my suggestion would be to treat it as a hobby / after hours activity, not something you plan to make a living out of. Start off with making parts for yourself and perhaps some people you ride with who would be willing to test them. If they're good, the word will spread and perhaps you'll start getting proper customers. Forget bashrings, boosters, brake mounts, levers etc. You will not be able to beat the Chinese in this field, they can manufacture these parts more quickly and cheaply then you ever will. And since these parts are purely functional, few people will want to pay a massive premium over a Chinese booster just because it's made in the UK and looks a bit more fancy. Focus on labour intensive parts like frames, forks, stems.

In terms of marketing, I'd recommend starting a basic website which you can use to share technical drawings, CAD images, pics of you welding, vids of parts being milled etc - the more backstage stuff showing how much work and craftsmanship goes into building your frames, the better. I'd build the website around the concept of engineering, not so much the ordinary "these are our products" pages. You yourself want to be a craftsman / expert in your field though this won't happen straight away - it has to stem from experience. That way you'll be able to attract premium customers who are willing to pay a lot for a top notch custom frame and excellent customer service (imperative). Get a name and perhaps a logo if you want the word to spread. Without the former, it's going to be really difficult for anyone to relate to these products.

[Mark W]

Forget bashrings, boosters, brake mounts, levers etc. You will not be able to beat the Chinese in this field, they can manufacture these parts more quickly and cheaply then you ever will. And since these parts are purely functional, few people will want to pay a massive premium over a Chinese booster just because it's made in the UK and looks a bit more fancy. Focus on labour intensive parts like frames, forks, stems.

I'd kind of disagree with some aspects of this - a few UK companies have started off/ended up doing OK by doing simple stuff like boosters and bashrings as they're pretty cheap/easy to do, and I think it's the price-point that people are happy to spend at to just spruce their bike up a bit. If you look at, say, Fresh Products, people still look for their lever blades now because they were comfortable to use - just making simple stuff well is a pretty good way to get customers, especially on smaller items like that which are relatively quick and easy to produce, have low/no chance of needing to be sent back under warranty and so on. Like you said the market is saturated at the moment with random brands, but if you can bring something new to the table then there's scope to do those kinds of products and potentially make a success. For example people were talking recently about a bashring to fit behind your BB - a streety bashring like that, made nicely and with a decent style/aesthetic could sell a few units and although it won't be a massive earner it'll get people talking about the brand and would at least lead to some money coming in. If you just do things like frames and forks you've got a relatively long lead time, and you've also got to stump up the money for the materials first and potentially not get payment until some time later.

I wouldn't be so sure about stems being a good way to go either as forged stems are seemingly the most popular type out there at the moment and there's no realistic way that - apart from buying from Taiwan and shipping them over yourself - you'd be able to set up shop doing them on your own.

[Ali C]

I think a service where you can make parts that someone might think of but doesn't exist might be cool. For example making one-offs (or a small batch) of bashrings to fit Hope cranks is something I'd be after.......something that uses the Hope spline that a chainring can be bolted to (or one piece) with a small 22t bash guard (think old school middleburn bashguards).

I often have ideas on parts that I'd like but don't exist that I usually have to end up bodging (my bashguard now is a ground down bmx sprocket), having the option to explain an idea and have it made would be pretty awesome, I can't be the only one I'm sure!

[Greetings]

You're right, lever blades were a bad example. We need something for the 2005+ HS33, the current HS33 lever blades aren't holding up too well either. It's only the 2 finger ones that are strong-ish and those feel rubbish. If Magura stick with the current HS33 design, it might be an idea to consider such lever blades.

As for stems I was thinking more about custom ones made from Ti (I gather the OP would like to use this material). It's probably not going to take much effort to manufacture stems to custom length and rise and some riders might shine to this idea. There are still voids in geometry which need filling in.

[Mark W]

Yeah, I'd thought about that type of custom stem but I'm not sure if that style of stem has the 'look' people are after these days. It might look a bit too basic for people?

Just need to make one that would put your bars in the same position as a regular 150x30 stem with 'Carthy bars', but being able to run your bars in a normal way though, might get some takers.

[weirdoku]

I agree with making custom things for customers. I have some stuff I want made, I'd happily pay a reasonable price for them.

[dave33]

I think a service where you can make parts that someone might think of but doesn't exist might be cool. For example making one-offs (or a small batch) of bashrings to fit Hope cranks is something I'd be after.......something that uses the Hope spline that a chainring can be bolted to (or one piece) with a small 22t bash guard (think old school middleburn bashguards).

I often have ideas on parts that I'd like but don't exist that I usually have to end up bodging (my bashguard now is a ground down bmx sprocket), having the option to explain an idea and have it made would be pretty awesome, I can't be the only one I'm sure!

Hope should really make a spider to fit screw on freewheel or a sprocket

[Ali C]

would be pretty good if there's enough room

[dngr2self]

I think making small runs of smaller more basic parts would be a good idea. The jaf bash rings were popular until people found out they were weak. Looking at ideas like that and improving them could be a good way to get your name out there. Offering custom frames and forks alongside that would also be good. Like Greetings said, there are always people out there looking for custom frames. Jaf again was doing alright with custom frames for a little bit until people started having problems with his workmanship. Improve on that and you should do well. You're in a good position really if you've got contracts for other things and can do this on the side so to speak.

[weirdoku]

I'm waiting for the day we can 3D print metal pieces that is as strong as CNC'd parts for example.

[dave33]

I think making small runs of smaller more basic parts would be a good idea. The jaf bash rings were popular until people found out they were weak. Looking at ideas like that and improving them could be a good way to get your name out there. Offering custom frames and forks alongside that would also be good. Like Greetings said, there are always people out there looking for custom frames. Jaf again was doing alright with custom frames for a little bit until people started having problems with his workmanship. Improve on that and you should do well. You're in a good position really if you've got contracts for other things and can do this on the side so to speak.

Yea the only problem with alot of small batch work is alot of the time is set up or change over. This means the costs going to be increased which will ether be passed on to the customers or absorbed by the business. Not really sustainable?

[dngr2self]

Yea the only problem with alot of small batch work is alot of the time is set up or change over. This means the costs going to be increased which will ether be passed on to the customers or absorbed by the business. Not really sustainable?

Surely the change over costs wouldn't be too much for things like boosters and bashes would they? I'll admit I'm not well up on these things and was just adding my 2 cents. I believe you're an engineer yourself are you not? You must have some ideas of your own that could help this guy.

[dave33]

I think making small runs of smaller more basic parts would be a good idea. The jaf bash rings were popular until people found out they were weak. Looking at ideas like that and improving them could be a good way to get your name out there. Offering custom frames and forks alongside that would also be good. Like Greetings said, there are always people out there looking for custom frames. Jaf again was doing alright with custom frames for a little bit until people started having problems with his workmanship. Improve on that and you should do well. You're in a good position really if you've got contracts for other things and can do this on the side so to speak.

Yea the only problem with alot of small batch work is alot of the time is set up or change over. This means the costs going to be increased which will ether be passed on to the customers or absorbed by the business. Not really sustainable?

Surely the change over costs wouldn't be too much for things like boosters and bashes would they? I'll admit I'm not well up on these things and was just adding my 2 cents. I believe you're an engineer yourself are you not? You must have some ideas of your own that could help this guy.

What I mean is if you spend 50% of over all production time on setup you will double the cost per part.

The downside on a small business with only 1 machine

[Ross McArthur]

Or something like that...

[DAMON WATSON.]

If this comes to fluition, I'd be super interested in a few bits, pm me