2015 Inspired Console & Arcade (Updated: 24/4/15)

[uk24]

On frame set's are the stickers lacquered on or can you remove them?

[Mark W]

They're not removable, no.

[Christiaan]

I wish my console had a 15mm axle option... New frameset looks good! Like the blue better though.

[tannerb]

Could someone explain the advantage of the dropouts on the arcade? Are they just stiffer than horizontal dropouts?

[tannerb]

Nevermind. For some reason I thought the Arcade had dropouts like on the Skye.

[Rusevelt]

I wish my console had a 15mm axle option... New frameset looks good! Like the blue better though.

Don't mind the colour, I just rather prefer the the finish below

Than this

[Mark W]

That photo's not entirely representative of the colour though - I'd say the colour you can see in the video clips from the Console product video are a bit nearer to the saturation/vibrance of the colour 'in real life'.

There was a colour sample of the Console colour but not in the matte finish - it did look sweet but it wouldn't really match the parts that were going on the bike, so consequently it's got a similar finish to the Arcade.

[JJ Leigh]

i quite like the look of the new green! personally the logos don't suit it, but over all it looks neat! then again I've not seen one in the flesh, or like Mark sais as a "real life" view.

i reckon once its seen in that perspective, it might sway minds to like it more, i already like the finish! guessing there will be one on display at TartyDays i guess, that'd be cool to see.

[Mark W]

Speaking of the Console - John Langlois is now riding for Inspired, and as spotted in the Ozonys Days video is now rolling on a pretty sweet Console build. There are some cool photos of him/his bike on his rider page here: http://www.inspiredbicycles.com/john_langlois_r14.php

[Dman]

Cool the boys got skills. Nice ride aswell.

[eskimo]

They decided to ditch rim brakes altogether? Did i imagen it or was there a brakeless model too at one point?

Still don't know why Inspired are doing things the way they are doing things still. Small batches of multiple different frames? I can't see the figures from where i'm standing, but from what i can see the current market for Inspireds is: Dads with cash burning a hole in their pocket and they see it as the ideal bike to play on, kids who must be the next big thing and therefore must have the cool best bike or other riders who can't be bothered with what little else there is on the market and just bite the bullet. I bet if there was an actual affordable bike without the bows and ribbons it would increase sales, but you could say it would devalue the business and i know Inspired is a reputable brand. Shame as i know myself and others would really enjoy just thrashing one about, but don't want or need or the bells and whistles. Bells and whistles don't mean strength or reliability.

I'm sure that guy will do some real nice videos provided he doesn't follow the current rule of cool and use that aweful pop music and cheat every other line. He does have some cool barspins.

[Mark W]

The Console and Arcade have always been disc brake only (apart from the brakeless Arcade framekit - James is riding one of them at the moment). The only rim brake 24" model they do now is the Flow.

The reason there are two different frames is to hit different price-points with the bikes. The Console shares a lot of its framekit with the Arcade, but just with some simplified areas to keep things cheaper (the most notable ones being the frame and forks dropouts that are much simpler, and allow a cheaper front hub to be used on the complete bikes).

I'm fairly sure we've gone over this before a few times, but your idea of people who buy Inspireds is pretty skewed. What you look for in a bike isn't necessarily the norm (which is evident not just in your trials bike but also in your setup on your BMX too in fairness), so applying your view onto other people isn't really representative of who's buying what and why. That's especially so in terms of the Arcade/Console - you're the only person I know who's ridden an Arcade/Console who wasn't really keen on it. The initial batches of framekits/bikes sold out really fast because a lot of people wanted them not just because of the name, but because they liked how they rode. To put it another way, where would people like Ben Travis, Judders, Carl Hopps and James fit in on your "Inspired buyers demographic"?

Bearing in mind you had a Console proto before but didn't really seem to get on with it I'm not sure having a cheap Inspired out there would really tempt you onto one either? From chatting to you before it doesn't really seem like you're all that keen on the geo either which probably won't help in that sense. I do agree with you it'd be cool to have some priced a lot lower, but they've been updating a lot of their range (not just the Arcades/Consoles but the Fourplays have been pretty heavily revised and the new Skye Team has basically been redesigned from the ground up) so finding the time to come up with a totally new frame/bike is probably a little tricky at the moment. Hopefully once those are all out of the way they'll be able to get some bikes in that kind of area though as it'd definitely help get more people involved.

Out of interest, how do you mean by "cheat" lines? I'm just curious rather than trying to call you out there Agree with the barspins too, can tell that he's come from a BMX background rather than a trialsy one.

[eskimo]

True, i knew there was a brakeless model, haven't eaten so brain malfunction. This insinuates (lack of a better word right now?) about money going into a model that isn't required. Or at least that was a point i was trying to make. I'm not sure the range of Inspireds is good for what i believe could be better. Who really wants a brakeless bike? Sure there are a few i know, but only a few and having disk only mounts doesn't negate too much from what a brakeless bike offers, price, strength, weight. Although possibly a bad example seeing as removing a frame from a production line early is hardly going to cost much more. But i think it does help my point of it being an un-needed line.

I know my choice of bikes can be quite oddballish, but i don't believe what i would like to see should be the line, but should of been a consideration or merged with another line. The names you mentioned would all go into the "can't be bothered with what little else there is on the market and just bite the bullet", except James ofc, he goes in the "Dad with too much money" group, hah. I suppose you could interpret "can't be bothered" a few ways, but it simply means what little there is, is not soo goo. And equally important, did all of them feel 100% about sinking that much money into a bike? Not saying they shouldn't, or it wasn't worth it, just £1500 is a fair whack. Knock a 1/3 of that off and you've got a holiday for example, or keeping your car on the road. And seeing as riding is rather important to a lot of people for whatever reasons, they justify the purchase because there isn't another option. And the ones who can't justify the option, (myself and others), don't part with the cash.

The one i had, had no steel forks, and i did say to them it cannot be ridden like that, the front end was way too light. I would like to make one work to a certain standard for me if it were "affordable". I believe the Console is far too close to the Element, or at least the grey model Element in terms of how it rode. But near all the aluminium lines are far too similar to each other too.

While being extremely unfamiliar with business, in my head this kind of line up would be probable:

Arcade as is

Console as is. But would be better to be replaced with the Amp.

Amp (that's the name i'm giving it), large frame design adjustment and slight geo modification. Budget model. Addresses the gap between mtb and 24"/bmx.

Flow or Element as is. Budget alu bike for trials. Or just produce one Alu frame (fourplay) and have different full bike builds instead.

Fourplay as is. Premium alu line.

Skye. As is. (sells on name alone)

Giving only 4 frame sets. 1 colourway per frame, per year. No optional extras, only the obvious disk and mag, or disk only.

I wonder how many Arcades sold versus the Consoles. I also wonder if any of those choices were even because of the geo rather than the price. I had already let Inspired know my thoughts on the Console. Sure it's a fine bike, cannot question the quality or company at all, but it's just a bit *sigh* each time a new line comes out or a colourway.


As for cheat lines, trials is notorious for random backhops in lines or fakies, manuals that seemingly start or end from nowhere, and generally speaking mistakes that appear in every other line (cause it literally is) that get ignored. Sure we all do the odd setup or preload hop and pedal kicks, but they really have no clue. It's like doing a footjamwhip on the floor, or a tailwhip out of flyout. Please leave my eyesight. It's not to do with skill either, or it is, but i mean i can watch lesser riders on a bmx just do some cool stuff even if it's not actually that difficult because it was never intended to be.

[Mark W]

True, i knew there was a brakeless model, haven't eaten so brain malfunction. This insinuates (lack of a better word right now?) about money going into a model that isn't required. Or at least that was a point i was trying to make. I'm not sure the range of Inspireds is good for what i believe could be better. Who really wants a brakeless bike? Sure there are a few i know, but only a few and having disk only mounts doesn't negate too much from what a brakeless bike offers, price, strength, weight. Although possibly a bad example seeing as removing a frame from a production line early is hardly going to cost much more. But i think it does help my point of it being an un-needed line.

The brakeless one was only offered as a limited run framekit, not a full bike. I wasn't 100% about the idea but they thought they'd try them out to see how they did. Surprisingly sold a few to Japan which is kind of weird. Bearing in mind there were/are quite a few people riding 24" bikes brakeless it made sense to give it a go...

I know my choice of bikes can be quite oddballish, but i don't believe what i would like to see should be the line, but should of been a consideration or merged with another line. The names you mentioned would all go into the "can't be bothered with what little else there is on the market and just bite the bullet", except James ofc, he goes in the "Dad with too much money" group, hah. I suppose you could interpret "can't be bothered" a few ways, but it simply means what little there is, is not soo goo. And equally important, did all of them feel 100% about sinking that much money into a bike? Not saying they shouldn't, or it wasn't worth it, just £1500 is a fair whack. Knock a 1/3 of that off and you've got a holiday for example, or keeping your car on the road. And seeing as riding is rather important to a lot of people for whatever reasons, they justify the purchase because there isn't another option. And the ones who can't justify the option, (myself and others), don't part with the cash.

So that's "can't be bothered with what little else there is" despite the majority of them wanting to get one based on the fact they rode some of the protos and really liked how they rode? Mike specifically waited for ages to get one because he liked how my bike/Ali's bike rode so much. That's what I was getting at about your perception of the frame/brand - it's a good frame, people wanted it. That isn't just "settling" for something - if they wanted to get a custom rinky dink frame they could just do that, but none of them chose to. I don't really get the whole "justification" thing either, especially when you're trying to point out that it's the equivalent price of a holiday? If people didn't want them they wouldn't buy them, or they'd buy a framekit and custom build it instead. There's no gun to peoples heads.

The one i had, had no steel forks, and i did say to them it cannot be ridden like that, the front end was way too light. I would like to make one work to a certain standard for me if it were "affordable". I believe the Console is far too close to the Element, or at least the grey model Element in terms of how it rode. But near all the aluminium lines are far too similar to each other too.

The Arcade forks are almost exactly the same weight as the Fourplay alloy forks. I really don't get the "front end was too light" argument. I also don't get how you can say the Console rides too similarly to the Element when the rear end is 20mm shorter, the BB is 5mm higher and the head angle's a fraction over a degree steeper. Maybe the reason the front end felt light to you had nothing to do with fork weight but the way the frame was a lot easier to pull up/move around than the Element because the geo is so different. The Console is almost completely identical to the Arcade, so surely you'd be saying the Arcade rides like the Element too which it clearly doesn't? That's also what I was referring to about you being unique - I knew you'd mentioned the Console/Element similarity and I don't know of anyone else who would say that at all.

While being extremely unfamiliar with business, in my head this kind of line up would be probable:

Arcade as is

Console as is. But would be better to be replaced with the Amp.

Amp (that's the name i'm giving it), large frame design adjustment and slight geo modification. Budget model. Addresses the gap between mtb and 24"/bmx.

Flow or Element as is. Budget alu bike for trials. Or just produce one Alu frame (fourplay) and have different full bike builds instead.

Fourplay as is. Premium alu line.

Skye. As is. (sells on name alone)

Giving only 4 frame sets. 1 colourway per frame, per year. No optional extras, only the obvious disk and mag, or disk only.

I wonder how many Arcades sold versus the Consoles. I also wonder if any of those choices were even because of the geo rather than the price. I had already let Inspired know my thoughts on the Console. Sure it's a fine bike, cannot question the quality or company at all, but it's just a bit *sigh* each time a new line comes out or a colourway.

Updating proven, popular models is a bit "*sigh*"? You'd just prefer there to be no evolution of models despite that leading to long term price reductions (e.g. the current Element being the previous generation Fourplay frame)? The colourways on the bikes get chanced once every 1-2 years too, which I wouldn't necessarily say is excessive...

As for cheat lines, trials is notorious for random backhops in lines or fakies, manuals that seemingly start or end from nowhere, and generally speaking mistakes that appear in every other line (cause it literally is) that get ignored. Sure we all do the odd setup or preload hop and pedal kicks, but they really have no clue. It's like doing a footjamwhip on the floor, or a tailwhip out of flyout. Please leave my eyesight. It's not to do with skill either, or it is, but i mean i can watch lesser riders on a bmx just do some cool stuff even if it's not actually that difficult because it was never intended to be.

Agree about the manuals to/from nowhere thing, and the correction hops thing. Same about footjam whips on the floor/not on the top of banks too. Just curious as to what your parameters were for it

[eskimo]

I suppose i can't disagree with people feeling hyped about trying the demo bikes out and wanting them, probably being i'm just picky, but had assumed others would take price into consideration.

I had never rode the Console with steel forks, which is why i wanted them, as thought it would keep that front end in place. Sorry if i hadn't made that obvious/ had jumbled my words.

I'm pretty sure the Console i had was different to what's available now, not by much, but it means i can't draw up the stats so to speak. Basically to me, the frame i had felt like it wasn't trying to do anything different to what the Element did, except be slightly more nimble. It was like they took the Element and decreased it by a percentage. Every time i get on one i swear it feels like i'm laid back. The bike to me just doesn't feel amply agile in all parts of the bike, and i like stable bikes. Go figure...

Updating proven, popular models is a bit "*sigh*"? You'd just prefer there to be no evolution of models despite that leading to long term price reductions (e.g. the current Element being the previous generation Fourplay frame)? The colourways on the bikes get chanced once every 1-2 years too, which I wouldn't necessarily say is excessive...

I don't really get your point. How can updating a frame lead to price reduction, surely a single large batch of the final tested proto would be a much cheaper option. I'm fine with them updating what they want to update, but surely any strength issues should have been caught through the initial testing and therefore leaves nothing else of any mega benefit to be needing an update. I understand how the Fourplay becoming the "budget" Element benefits the consumer, but when that Fourplay roll gets filled by another new model it negates any cost benefit from production.

But as said i don't know the ins and outs, so if it is just a marketing game that works then i certainly am wrong. But from a production perspective it just makes no sense to me with all these bikes all filling such a small niche market.

[Mark W]

To use an example of why just going for a massive batch of frames is a bad idea for a variety of reasons, look at something like the Koxx Sky bike range (back when they had the different coloured ones, e.g. Silver, Black, Red, Purple, etc.). They all used the same head tube and they all seemed fine, but it transpired that there was an issue with the production of the head tube that led to them randomly splitting. For example, my head tube on my Purple Sky literally split in two whilst bubble-wrapped up in a box (which seemed to be due to a relatively minor temperature differential). You'd have thought that would be easy to sort out by just complaining to the factory, but they'll do everything they can to avoid taking any blame and consequently you can be left holding onto a large amount of f**ked product that wasn't your fault but has now been paid for and is unsellable. That's just covering the manufacturing side of things, but equally you don't really know how well the product is going to go down in the market so you can end up holding onto a load of stock that you can't shift. Testing doesn't get rid of all bugs from stuff too - you only need to look at the constant 'installation error' style posts G makes on Bikeguide to see that a product that holds up well under testing/lab conditions can break relatively quickly when the masses get hold of it. You can also make big improvements in durability with products from time-to-time too. Some of the Inspired range now use a new steerer system in their forks that's pretty unique but under testing (both real world and stress testing in the factory) has worked out being incredibly reliable whilst also being really light. If there'd just been a massive stockpile of older forks it wouldn't be possible to implement those changes without having to sell off a load of forks cheap because the latest and greatest thing was waiting to be released. Widespread geo changes aren't able to be implemented if you've got a big stockpile of frames too, so frames year-on-year getting shorter CS lengths, different BB heights, different fork offsets and so on wouldn't be able to happen to keep pace with what people are after. There's also the way you're reliant on other companies product ranges for full bikes too. If you produced a load of bikes in 2013 with the view they'd remain unchanged until 2015, you're missing out a whole product cycle from other suppliers (so you'd be running out of date brakes, finishing kit and so on).

The benefits of upgraded products filtering down the range means that essentially you end up, as a consumer, getting a better bike for your money. A frame that's at 'Level 2' and is £400 - say - one year then becomes 'Level 1' and £300 the next year, and although the 'Level 2' bike remains £400, it can be benefited by the upgrades from bikes further up in the range so you're keeping a list of bikes at popular price points being updated and featuring the best possible build they can. If you just got massive stockpiles of frames because you didn't want to develop anything for a couple of years then that trickle down process is negated and the product ranges plateau which doesn't really benefit anyone - towards the end of the lifecycle of the product range the company looks bad because they haven't done anything new for a while, and sales will inevitably start to slow. That isn't good for the company, and it's not great for the customer because they're not being offered a better product at a comparable price.

I got what you meant about how you wanted to run the Console with steel forks, but my point was that you were running Element alloy forks which weigh the same as the Console/Arcade forks do so switching to the steel forks Inspired made would have had virtually no difference apart from removing 5mm from your fork offset (although that's now been normalised across their fork range). There was one prototype version of the forks that were a fairly considerable amount heavier but no-one who used them really liked them because they made the front end feel sluggish which, when you've specifically set a bike up to be nimble, isn't really great. If you're basing how the bikes feel on riding Ben and James' bikes, it doesn't really surprise me that they feel 'laid back' to you. The stacker towers those guys run basically mean your bars-to-BB height becomes so much greater your body weight gets shifted further back. Their bikes feel really weird to me and I'm well used to their frames. I doubt you'd particularly like my setup, but if anything I'd say that mine was biased more over the front than being neutral.

[eskimo]

Not sure an Alu Koxx frame (Koxx being notorious for having a very limited life is the best example tbf(!)) but i understand the point, and it makes sense. But i did think that was the point of using a high end factory and producing high quality parts was to eliminate these problems happening, including poor behaviour on the factory owners front. Which does now make me think would a cheaper factory be beneficial? Especially seeing as such small batches are being produced after all.

I've had cheap bmx and cheap trials frames, while noticeably they would have something not right with them, they'd be worth the little money. Sure Inspired will never produce frames at that kind of cost, but edging closer with one line would grab many more buyers.

Gsport is an odd one. I think their problem was the Odyssey side having too much of a say. And a arsehole consumer is always going to be an arsehole consumer, it doesn't matter how idiot proof a pump is, i bet somebody will break it cause they tried to pump up an F1 tyre or something.

Dunno about the geo changes thing. I see close to noone asking for geo changes on a Fourplay year after year, as you would of thought TF would be the place tbf as people who ride are generally here at some point in time, but that now is irrelevant if there is no safe route around large batches if that is the truth overseas quality bike factories are still wank. Without back reading i think my main point of the whole discussion was price. Still even if the factory were safe to produce a large batch for a 2 year stock as an example, a new idea/ design for a fork doesn't have to be on the market straight away, Inspired own the market so they do have leeway. The UK 24 market is also very controlled with Tarty controlling what's available too. Sure worldwide there may be an issue, but i'd like to think the 24 market has got to be around at least 50% with the rest Europe taking a 30% if not more on the figures. Again not that it makes much of a difference now.

Your frame level example is benefited by the ability to produce a new line to fill the top slot, which means changing the production line, which costs money. But once again, now you've said the high factories are not reliable, it makes sense to change the line if you have to put a new order in anyway. I don't disagree there. What else you say is just marketing after that, which no longer comes down to bike performance, just that it's new. There's a fine example of guy in here (first few posts), saying he wish he'd waited a few weeks to get the new one cause of the colour. Nothing about being able to get a cheaper bike. Those people fit nicely into the group with "money burning a hole" i posted yesterday, they'd happily buy anything, which is to why the Arcade line of the group of bikes i mentioned would be the one he's targeted too. Not sure if that makes sense, but it does dammit. I don't think i ever disagreed with the marketing side of pretty new bikes make money, just not every line needs follow suit. A budget line could happily sit in the back row surely.

Well truth be told on the Console i had then, nothing would of fixed it. Joke!

But seriously though, if i had rode it with brakes like a trials bike it would of probably been okay. But yeah another run of the mill trials bike ain't for me as many others who evidentially moved on. Ben and James' bikes are gash. Try doing a manual on Ben's, it's actually funny. I could probably ride a rocking chair better than James' too. I rode yours and Ali's both feel fine, but still laid back style. My current bmx isn't mega hunch back either, but not high either. It's a maxed out steerer with top loader and 8.3" bars, which are 26" width essentially making me stand taller. And Rocca's i find nice now too with the new frame, yet he has monster bars. I would just like to see a cheaper frame available without the bonus features and the forks not be gurt long.

[Ali C]

On the price front I think people have become used to cheap prices from random people picking catalogue parts and putting their horrible brand name on as well as the people making frames in their sheds. I mentioned this in another chat but if you're gonna do stuff as professional as possible then it does cost more....especially if your product is high end. Inspired chose the best factory they could find (ending up with one which is regarded as the best in the world for steel frames), the best comes at a slightly higher price, Travelling to factories often to keep an eye on quality isnt'y cheap, renting a massive warehouse isn't cheap, employing people isn't cheap, having a team and paying for trips isn't cheap but all this means you get the best quality of bikes, a distribution centre, customer care and they get a decent exposure from having a good team. Plus they give back to events by supplying prizes.

There are cheaper options out there but they don't have the same level of detail and care both in their bikes and as a business. As far as Inspired bringing out cheaper bikes goes it's true that they'd like to keep the brand known for being the best bikes and would rather not cheapen it when people are willing to pay for the best bikes.

The other thing is there's always been expensive frames available, Pashleys were £500, Leesons were £400? it's no secret that the cost of pretty much everything has gone up since (look at the mtb world!).

I definitely think the Arcade has it's place, the geo is different enough to justify it alone. I've had a go on a Fourplay and I can instantly tell the difference in the ride, the head angle and chainstay length being the important factors, my Arcade feels way more nimble to me and much more balanced. (Jason Phelan had a go on my bike and noted how balanced he thought it was). The BMX world seem to have about a million frames available that all look pretty identical yet differ just enough for people to warrant one over the other. I think the Inspired range has enough geo changed to justify them....anything more extreme on either end of the spectrum would just ride badly.

[Mark W]

Not sure an Alu Koxx frame (Koxx being notorious for having a very limited life is the best example tbf(!)) but i understand the point, and it makes sense. But i did think that was the point of using a high end factory and producing high quality parts was to eliminate these problems happening, including poor behaviour on the factory owners front. Which does now make me think would a cheaper factory be beneficial? Especially seeing as such small batches are being produced after all.

The "Koxx frames are weak" thing was basically people just chatting shit. A bunch of their frames were really good, but the point I was making was that it was the factory who dropped the ball. They're always going to want to shift the blame as having to rectify mistakes costs money in terms of materials, but also in terms of time because they then have to shift other production cycles so it has a big knock-on effect. Consequently, it's easier for them to just deny stuff. You go for the better factories because those mistakes are less likely to occur, but no system is ever entirely foolproof when you're relying on humans doing a job to do it 100% properly from beginning to end, time after time. The better factories are also capable of doing more/better things to which is important if you're doing a lot of relatively unusual stuff (which is going to be the case if you're making more trials-orientated stuff).

Dunno about the geo changes thing. I see close to noone asking for geo changes on a Fourplay year after year, as you would of thought TF would be the place tbf as people who ride are generally here at some point in time, but that now is irrelevant if there is no safe route around large batches if that is the truth overseas quality bike factories are still wank. Without back reading i think my main point of the whole discussion was price. Still even if the factory were safe to produce a large batch for a 2 year stock as an example, a new idea/ design for a fork doesn't have to be on the market straight away, Inspired own the market so they do have leeway. The UK 24 market is also very controlled with Tarty controlling what's available too. Sure worldwide there may be an issue, but i'd like to think the 24 market has got to be around at least 50% with the rest Europe taking a 30% if not more on the figures. Again not that it makes much of a difference now.

That's not really the case though, and it's also why things like geo changes are useful even if there isn't outright demand from people on here. You've got other brands who are trying to compete, and if one company stands still they'll get overtaken. For example the Arcade came out, then Ozonys switched their geo to be very similar to it. If Inspired weren't able to then react in any way to this change in geo/demands from riders through the rest of their range, or to be able to compete for people looking into buying a new frame, they'd be fairly screwed in terms of getting rid of what would then be 'dated' stock. People are pretty fussy about geo (even if not always in the right way, such as the trials world's obsession with wheelbase), so if they want a short, snappy back end they could go for an Ozonys Something-or-other with a 365mm back end instead of a 2-year-old Fourplay with 375mm back end (as a random example). People are buying more Ozonys stuff these days (it was a trend that started when I was at TartyBikes), plus you're also effectively competing with Marino where people can spec the geo they want - as a result, being current with what geo is popular/works well is important to try and avoid having some Peruvian dude swipe all your sales when your new geometry gets cloned onto a bunch of 'custom' frames.

I'm not sure what you mean with the %ages about UK/Europe/RoW? The Japanese market is pretty big - the Inspired distro over there is always on it with the new products that come out, and seems to be doing pretty well considering that scene's not really represented over here in any way. Seeing behind the scenes was pretty eye-opening for that kind of thing.

Your frame level example is benefited by the ability to produce a new line to fill the top slot, which means changing the production line, which costs money. But once again, now you've said the high factories are not reliable, it makes sense to change the line if you have to put a new order in anyway. I don't disagree there. What else you say is just marketing after that, which no longer comes down to bike performance, just that it's new. There's a fine example of guy in here (first few posts), saying he wish he'd waited a few weeks to get the new one cause of the colour. Nothing about being able to get a cheaper bike. Those people fit nicely into the group with "money burning a hole" i posted yesterday, they'd happily buy anything, which is to why the Arcade line of the group of bikes i mentioned would be the one he's targeted too. Not sure if that makes sense, but it does dammit. I don't think i ever disagreed with the marketing side of pretty new bikes make money, just not every line needs follow suit. A budget line could happily sit in the back row surely.

I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that that dude would "buy anything", just because he said he'd prefer to have the updated version of the bike? It isn't as simple as it just being a colour change both in terms of the frame itself and the parts on there (I'm not 100% sure as I don't know how old his bike is, but for example the new red bikes use the 40t ratchet ring Pro 2 Evo Trials rear hubs, whereas if that guy's got an older stock Arcade it could be he's got the previous generation one with the 24t ratchet ring), but regardless if he's decided he wants an Arcade then it's fair enough he might have wanted to have that 'better' newer one? It doesn't instantly mean that he's just got just shy of £2k waiting to go on the first thing he sees. It's not a small amount of money, and I'd imagine most people would think long and hard about it before they pulled the trigger on one.

The bit about products becoming better thanks to technology filtering down to them essentially means you're getting better value for money, even if the product is the same price. To use the Element as an example, it went from being the '09 Fourplay frame to the 2012 Fourplay frame when the bike was upgraded. Aside from the switch to dual disc from rear V/front disc, the frame itself was a lot better. Stronger, stiffer BB yoke, more sturdy frame overall, better geo, etc. - even if it's not cheaper, the value is greatly improved by that so although you're still paying the same amount you're getting a much better bike for your money. The first generation of the newer style Elements (with upgraded frame, dual disc, etc.) would have been a lot more expensive if they'd been introduced the year before, so the bike is effectively getting cheaper as time goes on, it's just moving through the model names basically. That kind of model movement can eventually lead to the creation of cheaper bikes because the cost of the frame would be reduced once all the tooling's paid off and so on, meaning that what was then tech from the Skye frame that moved down to become part of the 2012 Fourplay frame that then became part of what became the Element frame could become part of the <Insert name here> frame which could hit a lower price point. Overall it means all the bikes throughout the range are being improved, the customer's getting a better product and it allows more scope for the future. It's not a bad thing...

EDIT: Forgot to say before, but just to make it clear I'd also like it if Inspired had a cheaper range of bikes. I don't think the higher level bikes being updated is having as much of an impact on that as there only being 24hrs in a day is though

[Ross McArthur]

plus you're also effectively competing with Marino where people can spec the geo they want - as a result, being current with what geo is popular/works well is important to try and avoid having some Peruvian dude swipe all your sales when your new geometry gets cloned onto a bunch of 'custom' frames.

I never thought this to be the case. Like Eskimo has been saying, it's a type of person who falls into the buying an inspired catagory.

You either have X amount to spend on a Marino, or you have money to burn and buy an Inspired.

You can't really blame Marino for stealing sales from Inspired just because the geo is similar. The geo of the batch of frames, just like you've been saying, is what people want, not what Inspired have come up with, just for everyone to 'copy'.

Edit:

And also... I'd like to think the little peices of media Marino riders put out to promote the brand has the same effect on riders that the Inspired crew has. So its not all, just going for the cheaper option, but actually buying a Marino because they're cool

Edited May 5, 2015 by Ross McArthur

[Mark W]

I never thought this to be the case. Like Eskimo has been saying, it's a type of person who falls into the buying an inspired catagory.

You either have X amount to spend on a Marino, or you have money to burn and buy an Inspired.

You can't really blame Marino for stealing sales from Inspired just because the geo is similar. The geo of the batch of frames, just like you've been saying, is what people want, not what Inspired have come up with, just for everyone to 'copy'.

Whether you think it's the case or not, that doesn't really change the fact that there are people out there who disprove what you're saying? To use him as an example again, Judders didn't have "money to burn" but wanted an Arcade and specifically waited for it. Some people just want the better frame - next time you're riding with Ben Travis ask him how he thinks his Inspired(s) ride compared to his Archive if you like, although I'm pretty sure he's stated it publicly before...

I'm not "blaming" Marino for anything, I was making the point that no company exists in a bubble where they're immune from competition from other companies, in that particular case in the sense of geometry. We've been over the origins of that geo before so I don't really see the point in going over it again, but like I said, that's not the point I was making.

[Ross McArthur]

I dont have to ask anyone anything. I know what the Console/Arcade ride like compared to the Archive. Ive had long enough go's on them with varying set ups to decide which is "better" (for me) for myself.

Stating opinions publicly about anything didn't stop all the riders buying from my batch of Archives, so, so what?

[Skoze]

Stating opinions publicly about anything didn't stop all the riders buying from my batch of Archives, so, so what?

Which surely says more about the state of the current trials scene if both competing camps are selling out their gear without too much trouble than a straight up 'x is better'.

[Ross McArthur]

Well stock is always going to be low if frames crack so often.... Ooooh, low blow.

[Skoze]

I'm yet to see an Inspired split down the middle of a tube, or any disc mounts having decided to completely GTFO but yeah - good point well presented