AdamR28 Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Agreed Kevin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Sorry about the long post, just highlighting most points made over other shorter ones. I will keep it short as obvoiusly short attention spans here. Well done to Adam for trying something new and Sheffield demo was oversubscribed so maybe that is the future with no comps. Still dont see anybody offering any solutions here or offering to step up and organise the future, if the current situation is so bad. Hope that hasnt taxed anybodies reading abilities. Paragraph new start: I will still keep organising comps as long as people turn up and have fun. Three hours one way drive for alot of riders to comps up here (five one way for our newest rider last week). Maybe we could put a minibus on, free entries and you could just ride anything you want. Original post, make the effort, contribute, ride your bike, have fun with some friends and go home ready for another week happy and tired.If you want to street comps, stand up and organise something and then you can come on here with one sentance and say: there you go. (and probably still have to listen to all the moaning) That’s the thing, I don’t think its that bad, is it? I'm all for new formats. Kevin had a section set up like the Tarty Comp plan in Aviemore last year in one of the Scottish rounds - I enjoyed riding that. I rode the Street Light Sessions comp - Loved that. I organise street rides for anyone who wants to come, weekends away with mate’s yada yada I think the dab complainers are doing more harm than good. Younger lads thinking of getting into comps can be put off very easily if they hear/read the Cool Cats and the Big Guns of the British scene bad mouthing the current set up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dann2707 Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 That’s the thing, I don’t think its that bad, is it? It is at the Biketrial federation so i've been told. Barely any new people in the sport now and people are dropping out one by one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 The formats to blame for the decrease in entry numbers is it? If anything, competitions like GetCreative have had more of an adverse effect on conventional trials comps. The big marketing push on that definitely made me think, "Why should I stand around in a muddy field all day for a plastic trophy when I could be winning a brand new Inspired frame plus all sorts of goodies". Again, before I get shot down for shit talking peoples hard work, I support all video making competitions as well as any other trials comps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dngr2self Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Sorry about the long post, just highlighting most points made over other shorter ones. I will keep it short as obvoiusly short attention spans here. Well done to Adam for trying something new and Sheffield demo was oversubscribed so maybe that is the future with no comps. Still dont see anybody offering any solutions here or offering to step up and organise the future, if the current situation is so bad. Hope that hasnt taxed anybodies reading abilities. Paragraph new start: I will still keep organising comps as long as people turn up and have fun. Three hours one way drive for alot of riders to comps up here (five one way for our newest rider last week). Maybe we could put a minibus on, free entries and you could just ride anything you want. Original post, make the effort, contribute, ride your bike, have fun with some friends and go home ready for another week happy and tired.If you want to street comps, stand up and organise something and then you can come on here with one sentance and say: there you go. (and probably still have to listen to all the moaning) Why are you trying to be insulting and patronising? There are are lots of people that have tried to be constructive. It seems to me that you're bitter because not everyone agrees with you that things should stay as they are. I hope that wasn't too short for you, I just don't see the point in over wording my posts and droning on in an attempt to come across as being superior. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Why are you trying to be insulting and patronising? There are are lots of people that have tried to be constructive. It seems to me that you're bitter because not everyone agrees with you that things should stay as they are. I hope that wasn't too short for you, I just don't see the point in over wording my posts and droning on in an attempt to come across as being superior. He's not either of those. And when it comes to running comps, he is superior to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR28 Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 The formats to blame for the decrease in entry numbers is it? If anything, competitions like GetCreative have had more of an adverse effect on conventional trials comps. I kinda agree - but on the flip side, maybe 'traditional' comps need to move on / implement some fresh ideas (now that riders have options), in order to keep them as interesting as the 'new breed'? You could never make any single form of competition that will appeal to all riders, but it seems the general swing of riders seems to be heading towards taking part in the less formal comps and new formats. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Moar water guns!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dngr2self Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 He's not either of those. And when it comes to running comps, he is superior to you. He is both insulting and patronising. And if he's so good at running comps why are entry numbers dropping? Fair enough I've never organised a comp but does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 He is both insulting and patronising. And if he's so good at running comps why are entry numbers dropping? Fair enough I've never organised a comp but does that mean I'm not allowed an opinion? Uurm, ah dunno? And uurm, no one said you're not entitled to have an opinion. Where did that come from? Loads of people come out with that sort of statement - usually when they're flapping for things to "defend themselves with". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulotrialsrider Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 I guess it totally depends what mindset you are in and what you want to do / where you want to go with trials. We just set up a club up north for Primary/Novice/Inter - and from everyone's reactions on the day - they loved it. It was fully natural, a bit of tape here and there, nothing spectacular, but put on for the youth who may want to progress, and who may end up being the next JC - perhaps then bringing more coverage into the sport. Trials itself is an absolute minefield - every little part of trials can usually end up in an argument with two or more differing opinions. One huge problem which Tartys type trials overcome is the obstacles - "tactical dabbing" isn't right - but if a rider can get through 6/7 sections, and just cannot get up a huge rock, a tactical dab or a 5? Its a no-brainer if its a "competition" surely - yes when practicing give it a go - but in a comp you are technically there to do your best. What is worrying is the amount per section - one, fair enough, one per section again is pushing it, but 2/3/4 isn't right - drop down! Without naming names - at a local event i saw one guy sidehop to dab - as it was clear he wouldn't of made it - is that deliberate? What difference is that to standing on the back tyre and hauling it up except eye-candy? Not one person or one club will get everything right all the time - not one rider will be able to clean everything. Not one type of event or style of event will be right - each rider will have their own preferences. I just hate seeing criticism and remarks from people who offer no way of helping or remedying said situations. ( I know tape has been mooted, but it can't be used everywhere - not when 5 courses all run in one area!) Which motorbike trials clubs use this style that Tartys are holding Mark? I have rode for many years but not come across this? How are classes based? Age surely wouldn't work for Biketrials, nor would self-entry, or wheel size, was it engine size? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin M S/c Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 The format was used in the Spanish motorbike trials championship for a couple of years although they have changes to the std worlds format now. They kept the same classes as they had before (based on ability). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dngr2self Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Uurm, ah dunno? And uurm, no one said you're not entitled to have an opinion. Where did that come from? Loads of people come out with that sort of statement - usually when they're flapping for things to "defend themselves with". Its also the type of statement I'd make when I'm being shot down for speaking the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark W Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 I think the dab complainers are doing more harm than good. Younger lads thinking of getting into comps can be put off very easily if they hear/read the Cool Cats and the Big Guns of the British scene bad mouthing the current set up. Matt Arkwright is one of the most chilled out, laid back people around - did you see his post on Facebook after the Blackpool comp? Plenty of other people were complaining about it on there too so it's not like it's a limited number of people who weren't too keen on it. It's not like it's just a British thing either judging from the reactions people had to certain riders 'methods' in Antwerp when I was there. Similar deal with when they were doing live streams of the World Cups last year too. Seem to remember Jack Carthy made a post about it at some point as well, and Gilles has mentioned it in interviews in the past. Which motorbike trials clubs use this style that Tartys are holding Mark? I have rode for many years but not come across this? How are classes based? Age surely wouldn't work for Biketrials, nor would self-entry, or wheel size, was it engine size? As Robin said, Spanish clubs do it but it seems popular in the Czech Republic too. I watched a motorbike comp they ran at Dressler Camp using that system and it was awesome. I think it's called a "Gate trial" or something along those lines - if you Google that kind of thing there's a bunch of information about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bing Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Thats the thing, I dont think its that bad, is it? I'm all for new formats. Kevin had a section set up like the Tarty Comp plan in Aviemore last year in one of the Scottish rounds - I enjoyed riding that. I rode the Street Light Sessions comp - Loved that. I organise street rides for anyone who wants to come, weekends away with mates yada yada I think the dab complainers are doing more harm than good. Younger lads thinking of getting into comps can be put off very easily if they hear/read the Cool Cats and the Big Guns of the British scene bad mouthing the current set up. Come to a comp then ross, watch it happen. It's nothing to do with bad mouthing the organisers, I was suggesting a way of being able to make it stop. Maybe taping out an entire section is impractical, but something needs to be done. I could think of at least 5 people from the top of my head who have packed in doing comps for the very reasons mentioned in previous posts. Unless something fundamental is done to change things, numbers will continue to dwindle to the point where there won't be a comp scene in the uk anymore, because as mentioned by Kevin in another post, it won't be financially viable to run and organise one for so few people Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulotrialsrider Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Matt Arkwright is one of the most chilled out, laid back people around - did you see his post on Facebook after the Blackpool comp? Plenty of other people were complaining about it on there too so it's not like it's a limited number of people who weren't too keen on it. It's not like it's just a British thing either judging from the reactions people had to certain riders 'methods' in Antwerp when I was there. Similar deal with when they were doing live streams of the World Cups last year too. Seem to remember Jack Carthy made a post about it at some point as well, and Gilles has mentioned it in interviews in the past. As Robin said, Spanish clubs do it but it seems popular in the Czech Republic too. I watched a motorbike comp they ran at Dressler Camp using that system and it was awesome. I think it's called a "Gate trial" or something along those lines - if you Google that kind of thing there's a bunch of information about it. I understand all that - so in essence Blackpool should not have been used if it is so "dab friendly". You won't eradicate people trying to get round parts using the current format and locations such as Blackpool will just enable them to do such. I did see a post from JC (not friends with Matt A) about trials being a trying sport, don't just dab things if you can't do them. Would you see our younger riders, TOP younger riders, cleaning 90% of a expert section, but a strat-dab if they can't make it up the 5ft rock? Yes, using it excessive times in a section IS wrong, but dropping a younger rider from say expert to Inter, to basically allow them round on clean is just hindering their progress right? Things to look at IMO would be taking feet off both pedals - if one is off- the other can't come off. Eradicates a few slidy feet up the frame dabbers/ standing on the wheel dabbers & also dabbing through a "gate" would be classed as a 5 - something like that would help. Yes, aka openfree trials...lol, to be honest i read about this years ago but completely forgot it still existed. It created a lot of discussion and debate, almost as much as the no-stop rule did/does now within the moto-trials community. I don't think anyone in the UK got one to become successful did they? - it still is in America too i think. It will be good to have a new format, whether it takes off, or can run successfully with the system for observers especially when Tartys aren't involved will remain to be seen, but anything to help the sport is a big thumbs up from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross McArthur Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Come to a comp then ross, it won't be financially viable to run and organise one for so few people I try my best to go to any comp I can! There’s a reason why I was second in British Expert last year and my trophy cabinet is stacked - no other willy showed up! Thats not a good thing in my eyes because it means I win, its a bad thing because no one else is showing support. Hang around for 10 years dribbling about comp formats and quote anybody’s name all you want but its my 10, 15, 20 quid that goes into supporting the scene every time I ride a Scottish, British, whateverish comp - old or new format. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bing Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) I do apologise, Suppose that's that then. It still doesn't change my opinion. I stand by what I have said above, and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who shares the same thought. This is the place for things to be discussed is it not? It being a discussion forum and all that And before anybody else chirps up, I have been an observer at quite a few events, both national and regional, so I have seen all this from both sides of it Edited July 2, 2014 by bing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin M S/c Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 The national at bracken rocks will be using tape where required to ensure no 'cheat' lines. I don't mind people going for the big dab instead of a sidehop etc but I don't like the sneaky round flag riding so it will be set out so that can't happen. Are you coming to observe Dan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevind Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Why are you trying to be insulting and patronising? There are are lots of people that have tried to be constructive. It seems to me that you're bitter because not everyone agrees with you that things should stay as they are. I hope that wasn't too short for you, I just don't see the point in over wording my posts and droning on in an attempt to come across as being superior. Really still doesnt beat "bigot" for having a laugh with the SETs. So its ok to have a go at me but not me at you? pick your dummy up. I always listen to what the riders have to say or want improving as its not me that rides. Sections get altered before and during comps if they have to for whatever reason. Bitter: see Iains post. Ross has always made the effort and helped me when I started the Scottish club up, as I am from a motorbike background. In Scotland I see a steady entry but not high. I dont have the time to promote the club like perhaps it requires. This year the older (sorry Ross) have declined but new young riders are starting to come in and we spend one on one time with them at the comps or practice days. I dont have an answer but I always try my best to mix it up with new venues, sections and if I can in conjuction with other events to get the spectators. Well done to the new club put in a red route and we will make the effort to get to some of the events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bing Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 The national at bracken rocks will be using tape where required to ensure no 'cheat' lines. I don't mind people going for the big dab instead of a sidehop etc but I don't like the sneaky round flag riding so it will be set out so that can't happen. Are you coming to observe Dan? Possibly yes mate, it depends on wether I have Ryan or not. I still can't ride that good due to various injuries, so observing and having the crack is more fun these days. I'll let you know on the Friday before if that's ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevind Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Robins comment about cheat dabs and tactical dabs is the difference. No harm in a tactical dab as most riders ride for a result no matter what they say. I teach the new kids to do that as whats the point of fiving rather than a one.Next time after a bit of practice they would probably have a go. Looking forward to Bracken. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 (edited) Main problem with comps in the UK are to many riders in the wrong categories. So they actually dab more than 50% of the gates. And as they find it so difficult they tend to not go through the gates correctly and end up getting away with basically cheating. It's difficult for the observers to be to strict on this as some and new and they get taken advantage on. Every one wants to win. Putting a dab down on the last rock rather than taking a risk of a 5 after a steady section is still debate able. If you want to improve don't dab and try 100% Competion are what it says on the tin. And people want to win so you can see the choice. Trials is a difficult sport and takes a lot of dedicated hours to get to a level of British nationals. You can't expect to turn up and be winning straight away. By making sure riders are in correct category they can build on their skills as the rise up the ranks. Which mean they will always be in the best category for their level and alot more chance of enjoying. Rather than a full card of 5 and a struggle all day. Trials organisation is fine in UK. Yes it could be better. But we should be greatful for what we got. To many miles apart and such a thin spread of riders at the moment. Edited July 2, 2014 by dave33 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isitafox Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Not really got much to do with the dwindling number of entries but what gets me about British Trials is that British Cycling couldn't give a flying f**k about it. They have no interest due to the fact (and this came from someone who works for British Cycling) that it's not exciting enough for spectators?! If they put even half as much into trials as they do with some of the other cycling genres we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vivian-Trial Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Main problem with comps in the UK are to many riders in the wrong categories. So they actually dab more than 50% of the gates. And as they find it so difficult they tend to not go through the gates correctly and end up getting away with basically cheating. +1 I would agree on that. It also annoys me the amount of riders who choose to go to bash or pedal constantly. Why can they not go to wheels? Kind of fits in with the whole riders being in wrong categories Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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