Brakes modulation comparison

[TriаlsRider]

Since there are a lot topics about brakes. Maybe someone know where to get a picture of comparison of different brakes? I remember I saw it somewhere (there was saints, some hopes, elixirs and others). But the most interesting I think would be comparison of BB7 vs Saints vs Hopes.

[Blake]

I once did a wheelie with no brakes and they where pretty good.

[FamilyBiker]

write an email to the tech support of every manufacturer youre interested in,most of them will send you test diagrams without any problems

i have the friction curve diagramm of a 2012 xt brake laying around somewhere,if thats of any help for you.

problem is i got it per fax and i have no scanner

you can only compare lab results btw,in real life even the air humidity has an influence on the modulation of a brake.

(to exaggerate the changes through discs,pads,spoke tension...,know what i mean?)

edit: 2 other important things(probably more than air humidity )

-make sure you get diagrams resulting from tests made at DIN 14768/VCBRAKE2 DIN-EN,to have comparable results

-a brake with high hydraulic transmission and less mechanic transmission has better modulation,and vice versa(assuming the same maximum braking force the brake system can give before the tyre friction is overcome)

Edited November 23, 2013 by FamilyBiker

[TriаlsRider]

found it

Edited November 23, 2013 by TriаlsRider

[*gentlydoesit]

Bf1 isn't there! I know that wasn't in your line up but its an awsome spec brake.

[FamilyBiker]

that says nothing about the test circumstances,e.g. disc or wheel diameter and pad type.total nonsense as every of those brakes has minimum 2 diameters and pad types available as standard.

deceleration is in fact the loss of speed which would result from all factors working together.

is there any info on the test factors like disc dia where you get that from?

would be interesting

i´d assume it to be 160 mm rotor with resin type(organic pads) seeing those values though.but some of the brakes have values that cant be reached with a 160,unless its a 22" wheel

Edited November 23, 2013 by FamilyBiker

[Mark W]

That photo is actually out of context - it was part of a pretty big test that I think Bikeradar (might have been someone else though) did where they listed all the details about how they set their test up.

[FamilyBiker]

heres another of those from the page the above pic came from

opinions?

how can the torque load of a brake be determined from the brake itself,you can only determine the brakes deceleration forces through having a known torque load and a friction coefficient and and and.

its just not that simple to compare systems to eachother

edit:

thats a test diagram,if you got one of those for every single brake you want to compare,you can compare them.

everything else is out of context like that lists,or subjective,riders feel.

btw that one is for rain,you can see the lines dropping where the tyre slipped ,funny

Edited November 23, 2013 by FamilyBiker

[Mark W]

Again, to provide some context...

With the riding info collected, we then took fresh front sets of every brake (except for the Magura MT8, where only a previously used sample was available; this may have affected the figures for that brake) to a state-of-the-art dynometer testing facility to put some figures behind the trail feedback. This gave us not only raw stopping power results, but also confirmed how the brakes applied their power and how they coped with heat.

All the brakes were tested with a 180mm rotor and a 50Nm force on the lever (1N is the amount of force required to accelerate 1kg at 1m/s2), with the stock pads. To fully bed in the rotors and pads, the brakes were given 60 one-second pulls at 15km/h, followed by 30 two-second pulls at 20km/h. After a 30-second cooling-down period, the testing began.

With the wheel spinning at 30km/h, each brake was applied for three seconds and then left to recover for 10 seconds. This cycle was repeated 15 times. The results were then averaged out to provide a single power rating, which you can view below. (Weights are calculated including 180/183mm rotors, post mount kit and rotor bolts.)

[FamilyBiker]

^^thanks,now its understandable

doesnt tell what stock pads are though,i couldve been ordering my brake with resin or metal pads,wouldve been a difference of 0.12 in friction coefficient and had changed the results drastically for both max. deceleration and the heat resistance,but oh well

Edited November 23, 2013 by FamilyBiker

[N.Wood]

Exactly, the numbers are basically meaningless, it's more a comparison figure between the brakes that is important, how they stack up against each other in the same conditions.

[FamilyBiker]

fair point,could be i am too much of a technician guy sometimes to let go in such things.

(A)

in that case its just that one brake would´ve been beating the other due to having other compound pads,for example my br-m596 is available with both pad types here,and avids come with metal pads sometimes,depending on model.

now the avid won,but if the shimano had metal pads too,it would be the winner.

that makes the comparison itself meaningless imo.in practical terms,because you would have to buy the pads the test was made with to achieve the values the test brought to light

and to add this,every factor you change on your bike in comparison to the test setup can turn it all around,

Edited November 23, 2013 by FamilyBiker

[Mark W]

because you would have to buy the pads the test was made with to achieve the values the test brought to light

Presumably they were all tested with the standard pads they were fitted with though so they were as the manufacturer sells them. Similarly, they did that test off a bike to rule out those different factors to try and level the playing field. There are obviously different factors at play when they're fitted to a bike, but that test standardises it as much as possible. Equally, they did a separate test where they actually rode the brakes in different environments to give a riders feedback too (which was used to try and give 'real world' feedback to balance out the purely numerical data from the dyno test).

[FamilyBiker]

i understand what you mean,for john doe its enough to scratch the surface...

what i meant is if they bought 2 brm 596,one with metal,one with resin pads,the brake itself had a completely different rank in that test in the both cases.

as theyre available with both pads as standard its pretty easy to say the pads were standard.

i hope someone understands what i meant :wink2:

Edited November 23, 2013 by FamilyBiker

[Mark W]

Well, I suppose one day I can hope to 'understand' brakes as much as a 'technician' who can deduce that a brake test was apparently performed with 160mm rotors and organic pads using a 22" wheel...

That dyno test they did was part of a brake group test. If you look at the specific review of the particular brake you mentioned, they state that it was fitted with organic/resin pads.

[N.Wood]

Who is John Doe? A rip off (female?) John Deere?

[Mark W]

Just a normal rider, not a technician.

[FamilyBiker]

where was the link to that detailed review?

you only quoted something stating "stock pads"

i am not a normal rider,agree.i suck way more at riding than at technical stuff,maybe thats my problem.

some are good riders but cant understand how a freewheel works,thats life

and thanks for the very professional point on the 22" wheel thing.

your polemics are master class

i assumed it to be a norm-test,that means by industrial standards.

what the hell did they mean what normal braking behavior is,who says what that is?

thats the reason DIN-EN and other norms exist.not to "middle out a value",but to determine a certain lifespan or power for certain product.

if you go by the test factors a vcbrake2 din-en test consists of,you´d be "understanding" the point of my assumtion you were so jokingly about

i am not here to argue about anything(admitting to been having done that in the past sometimes,okay),but sometimes i think most of most peoples knowledge is based on "rethoric class" lessons

edit:seeing most of our discussions escalate,i have the suspicion we´re not too different,would be interesting to discuss things in real life with a few beers.or 2 baseball bats,dunno really

i´d take the beers despite being pretty good with bats

Edited November 23, 2013 by FamilyBiker

[bing]

I'd still take saints over formulas any day off the week. Despite the above table.

[butterztrials123]

U-brakes are the best

[FamilyBiker]

U-brakes are the best

you,sir,won the topic

[*gentlydoesit]

Still no bf1.... baseball bats over some russian dudes brake question?! I thought eastern block boys were bad but that's another level.

[FamilyBiker]

i think it was obvious that i was joking(had that (mis)assumption a few times here though)

the point of the sentence was supposed to be going towards the beer solution.

Edited November 24, 2013 by FamilyBiker

[*gentlydoesit]

Ahh i see... you'd rather glass him then

[FamilyBiker]

maybe one day i´ll make it to tartydays or radfest and bring an augustiner edelstoff for mark with me.

awesome stuff,could fill a tub with that and jump into it

Edited November 24, 2013 by FamilyBiker