British Soldier Murdered in Machete attack 23/05/2013

[1a2bcio8]

It would indeed be interesting to know if this sort of information/difference of view is getting very far into the mainstream consciousness. Sometimes it feels like it isn't but who knows. I suspect a lot of people ignore it because, in a sense, it's quite painful and frightening understanding just how much suffering we're causing around the world. Although that's all tied up to suffering here in the UK as well.

Regarding your article I think it's awful that that poor man's death if being capitalised on. Politicians always play with our perception of soldiers to intensify anger at official 'enemies' but also they are made out to be fundamentally heroic such that there's no way they could be fighting in illegal and imperialistic wars

[casualjoe]

There are some lovely moments in this video, it's not relevant to the machete attack per se but it's a great one to share about.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/5/27/memorial_day_special_us_veterans_of

[hill_393]

I was working in Woolwich this Monday just gone, and I wanted to pay my respects, so I took the time to visit the memorial. For such a horrific event, the sorrow you feel looking at all the messages, coupled with the heartfelt love shown from all races and religions was mind blowing. Kids as young as 3 laying flowers, young children around 6 years old leaving their toy soldiers in memory of Lee left me in tears, and Im not afraid to admit it. The one thing that struck me was the silence. The exact spot where Lee fell is a mass of lovely flowers and messages. Truly mindblowing, and a moving memorial.

[Mark W]

It would indeed be interesting to know if this sort of information/difference of view is getting very far into the mainstream consciousness. Sometimes it feels like it isn't but who knows. I suspect a lot of people ignore it because, in a sense, it's quite painful and frightening understanding just how much suffering we're causing around the world. Although that's all tied up to suffering here in the UK as well.

I think people are probably largely aware of it, but I think that's tied in with a sense of impotence about the situation. The biggest show of public discontent would arguably have been during the marches in the build-up to Gulf War 2.0, and that mass display of "f**k this shit" essentially did nothing at all. Consequently I think people are probably aware of it, but probably don't really say too much about it because they might not feel it would really achieve anything. For example, here's a relatively dated graph showing public approval for involvement in the Iraq war:

I'm aware public opinion polls (that one being a BES-CSM poll so relatively 'fair' compared to some of the ones out there) aren't the greatest way to work out the general mood of the public, but that's a pretty low %age of people into the idea of war in Iraq - yet it still happened. I don't really think that us being at war with people really implies a tacit acceptance of the majority of people out there that it's The Right Thing To Do.

[1a2bcio8]

It's true that popular opinion was against the war and rightly so but that being the case didn't have to be on the basis of knowing most or all of the most important evidence and facts. I'll admit to having been one of those people. Well, at first I was ambivalent but then I was against the war but, at that time, I didn't know a lot of what I know now that I could have also known then and which would have made my views against the war much, much easier. This was before I started really exploring alternate forms of media. We are continually misled by the mainstream media such that, if it is our primary source of information, the bias will be grounded in governmental and corporate interests. Appreciating your point though, I guess this is just one way in which we are either uninformed or have the appearance of being such.

The fact remains though that I've often told people about the sorts of things our government does of which they were totally unaware despite their gravity. I've experienced it in myself regarding the period between when I used to rely on corporate and mainstream forms of media for my view of the world relative to the picture that is painted by NGOs, Academics, not-for-profit media, etc.

I do feel that there are also people that aren't willing to face up to what has been done in our name. I even have a friend, who's one of the most intelligent people I personally know, who has changed his politics for career purposes denying the sorts of things we're talking about here despite having a strong recognition of them before. Human beings are masters of self-deception.

I don't want to reduce everything to single causes. I appreciate things are complex with various causes. That being said, my view is that part of the problem is that a significant segment of society is unaware of what's happening in the world and/or unwilling to face it, for one reason or another, and, therefore, I want to point this out. I also have a strong belief in the genuine goodness of most people. It's just that goodness is spoilt by disinformation, emotional manipulation and so on (basically propaganda). Countering those with a better picture of world affairs, I feel, can open up that goodness.

I know you feel like building a strong social knowledge base doesn't amount to a great deal but I think it's a beginning - in fact, the only beginning. I don't necessarily have answers beyond that at present and I may be wrong but I don't think you can really argue against the possibility of anything ever changing without being predicated by appropriate knowledge. That's why I emphasise it.

[Rusevelt]

Some form of Divine intervention is needed right about now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22713349

Edited May 30, 2013 by Rusevelt

[Skoze]

Some form of Divine intervention is needed right about now.

Why...?

[Mark W]

It's true that popular opinion was against the war and rightly so but that being the case didn't have to be on the basis of knowing most or all of the most important evidence and facts. I'll admit to having been one of those people. Well, at first I was ambivalent but then I was against the war but, at that time, I didn't know a lot of what I know now that I could have also known then and which would have made my views against the war much, much easier. This was before I started really exploring alternate forms of media. We are continually misled by the mainstream media such that, if it is our primary source of information, the bias will be grounded in governmental and corporate interests. Appreciating your point though, I guess this is just one way in which we are either uninformed or have the appearance of being such.

The fact remains though that I've often told people about the sorts of things our government does of which they were totally unaware despite their gravity. I've experienced it in myself regarding the period between when I used to rely on corporate and mainstream forms of media for my view of the world relative to the picture that is painted by NGOs, Academics, not-for-profit media, etc.

I do feel that there are also people that aren't willing to face up to what has been done in our name. I even have a friend, who's one of the most intelligent people I personally know, who has changed his politics for career purposes denying the sorts of things we're talking about here despite having a strong recognition of them before. Human beings are masters of self-deception.

I don't want to reduce everything to single causes. I appreciate things are complex with various causes. That being said, my view is that part of the problem is that a significant segment of society is unaware of what's happening in the world and/or unwilling to face it, for one reason or another, and, therefore, I want to point this out. I also have a strong belief in the genuine goodness of most people. It's just that goodness is spoilt by disinformation, emotional manipulation and so on (basically propaganda). Countering those with a better picture of world affairs, I feel, can open up that goodness.

I know you feel like building a strong social knowledge base doesn't amount to a great deal but I think it's a beginning - in fact, the only beginning. I don't necessarily have answers beyond that at present and I may be wrong but I don't think you can really argue against the possibility of anything ever changing without being predicated by appropriate knowledge. That's why I emphasise it.

In reverse order

I think you might have the wrong opinion of me judging from that last part - getting people to know what's going on is important, but it's more the method and means of delivering that knowledge that I find I sometimes disagree with, or alternatively the source for that knowledge that I don't have much faith in. I fully agree about the need for the 'social knowledge base' though.

I would sort of disagree with you about the inherent 'goodness' of people though, but I guess that's probably because you - at least it seems to me - are a more spiritual person whereas I'm not, and consequently I find the idea that we have this sort of 'goodness' hard to believe in (this may be influenced by me reading stuff like Straw Dogs recently ). That's a whole different debate though!

I get what you're saying about people not facing up to the realities of what we're doing elsewhere in the world though. Regarding news sources, I suppose it's the same with getting any form of information in that a wide variety of sources is preferable. For example, my house-mate believes he's some enlightened being because he spends a lot of his time watching bullshit conspiracy theory videos on Youtube (and consequently believes everything is 'a conspiracy', e.g. cookery shows primarily dealing with high fat/calorific meals as a 'government plan' to make everyone fat) and watching Russia Today. I watched some of RT and it just came across as having swung so far in the opposite direction to mainstream news that it didn't really come across as being balanced at all, and just skewed information to paint a specific picture of America rather than trying to just let the facts speak for themselves. It's like the way that when I watched Bowling For Columbine it seemed Michael Moore was twisting data so much that it undermined a lot of what he was saying for me. It's a variant on the whole 'boy who cried wolf thing' I suppose.

[MadManMike]

Not sure if this has already been posted in here:

http://darkernet.in/russell-brand-and-the-woolwich-murder/

[1a2bcio8]

He's an intelligent and reasonable chap despite his otherwise manic and, out of control, comedic persona. I agree with his points.

And in relation to this topic in a variety of ways that can be drawn out:

http://blogs.channel4.com/alex-thomsons-view/poll-shows-public-odds-reality-iraq-war/4968

http://www.zcommunications.org/poll-shows-that-uk-public-drastically-under-estimates-iraqi-war-deaths-by-joe-emersberger

This sort on information has been readily available if one looks beyond profit-driven or government sanctioned forms of media that generate the worst kinds of bias. It's from outlets that aren't based upon those fundamentals that we are more likely to find a clearer picture of what's happening within the world. People motivated by compassion and an interest in serving others, rather than greedy self-interested people, are better placed for truth telling - that's just basic fact. Which isn't to give credence to conspiracy nuts and all forms of media outside of the mainstream but is to recognise that given a proper investigation should reveal certain outlets can be deemed more reliable. Much like certain people can be deemed more truthful due to the type of motivations they hold. At least that's what my experience suggests.

People aren't aware just how much we've harmed to the Iraqis regarding both the current occupation, the UN sanctions prior to that or the first gulf war. Millions of people have died and Iraq is a place none of us would want live. Another 'liberated' country, Libya, is little different. That's the fault of a dominating media entrenched in powerful interests that does its best to avoid harming those interests. Resting the justification on the removal of tyrants such as Sadam or Gaddafi makes no sense when the harm they caused is so small in comparison.

Also, this isn't to say that the mainstream media, as a whole, is completely unable to function in a truth-telling capacity but that, in the main, it will not. There are many fine dissidents within the mainstream media but they are a significant minority.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Ben Rowlands

[Rusevelt]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22748021

[Dave Anscombe]

Some form of Revoloution is needed right about now.