The Global Warming Thread :p

[1a2bcio8]

I felt the previous thread had gone awry but I want to continue the discussion on Global Warming just because I think it's the most important topic - both on a social and individual level - facing us. I'm probably going to, much to people's frustration and disinterest , keep updating this thread with articles that indicate something of the reality of climate change both in scientific and political terms. Politically speaking, people need to know about the way both governments and the media either distort our understanding about climate change or doing nothing about it.

The following is from a TED talk and is very easy to understand and, I think, properly drives home the dangers we face. Avoid it at your own peril and especially at the peril of future generations - your children. I know people dislike the strong emphasis but I think it's entirely valid and proportionate; much like shouting to deter a car accident or something similar. This is just as serious with the only difference that it relates to a time period out of this moment although already we're seeing serious changes in the weather that are attributable to man-made global warming.

It's not embedding?

Edited March 25, 2013 by Ben Rowlands

[trialsiain]

Awwww noooo

[hI-OOPS-CAPS]

What can you or I do? He ends by saying make the impossible possible. What? Like turn lights off and walk more instead of drive? Surely you would do that anyway unless you're ignorant or lazy.

The bulk was quite interesting but also typically American, full of speculation and 'what could happen.' The satellite image of the polar icecaps was surprising, I found another on youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8bHufxbxc8

[arw_86]

One thing I have always wondered about Global warming is.........before humans, there was an ice age. Then it ended. So the world cooled dramatically on its own and the then warmed up on its own.

Isn't global warming sort of what happens anyway? Maybe humans aren't helping the speeds of these but this planet has done stuff all by itself before and will do again?

.....Just a passing thought

[MadManMike]

That's what I've always said. Turns out I was wrong and the dinosaurs were driving around in massive V8's and leaving their LCD's on while they went out!

[PaRtZ]

That's what I've always said. Turns out I was wrong and the dinosaurs were driving around in massive V8's and leaving their LCD's on while they went out!

[hI-OOPS-CAPS]

That's what I've always said. Turns out I was wrong and the dinosaurs were driving around in massive V8's and leaving their LCD's on while they went out!

And they didnt have the intellect to research global warming and worry about it. Now they're extinct, coincidence?

[MadManMike]

And they didnt have the intellect to research global warming and worry about it. Now they're extinct, coincidence?

Or waste time reading conflicting reports?

If you want to spend your life worrying about it so that the next generation can do the same, you go ahead - for me that seems like a waste of my life.

[Muel]

One thing I have always wondered about Global warming is.........before humans, there was an ice age. Then it ended. So the world cooled dramatically on its own and the then warmed up on its own.

Isn't global warming sort of what happens anyway? Maybe humans aren't helping the speeds of these but this planet has done stuff all by itself before and will do again?

.....Just a passing thought

Watch the video, it answers all of those questions.

I watched it and my stance hasn't changed. I don't want to read, I don't want to learn, I don't want to understand or be enlightened, I want to be TOLD WHAT TO DO. This is crucially what you (Ben) and all these videos and stories don't tell us yet is what to do. What's the point in all this research if you don't tell us what to do? Quite frankly I'm tired of being told to read stuff without actually seeing any action.

I won't be replying again or watching/reading anything you post on this matter again Ben unless I start seeing something I can actually do. All that video told me really was that I need to do something impossible, but didn't actually tell me what that was, which is no f**king use to anyone. I want to do my bit, and I want to help if I can, but how can I do that if I don't know what that is?

[munkee]

How about we all stop the hippy stuff of trying to adjust the earths temperature to what we "think" and "want" it to be so it can be "safe" for the humans.. let mankind heat the world up with all of our carbon and then let the earth manage this change by flooding us out. Then we will simply revert back to how the world actual wants to be and the cycle will begin again.

The whine over global warming is getting so old now. It will not be changed and according to the youtube TED talk (with added music for dramatisation btw) the guy already said its done for and we can not change it so there we go.

[trialsmax04]

Isn't global warming sort of what happens anyway? Maybe humans aren't helping the speeds of these but this planet has done stuff all by itself before and will do again?

.....Just a passing thought

Global warming is 100% natural, and so is climate change to a degree. Its just the acceleration due to human activity that is the issue, so yeah... Its a morbid way of looking at it, but we are long long overdue for a planetary mass extinction.

I've done a lot of research into this subject through my A-levels and my degree (Geology), and its something that truly fascinates me (Looking to go into Renewable Power Engineering one day). Everyone with the attitude of "It wont happen in my lifetime, so what does it matter?" is pretty ignorant to the subject and ultimately selfish. In reality? It wont happen on a time scale imaginable by most. 10,000 years is a lightning quick mass extinction, some last for millions. It could happen. It might not. Who knows?

I presume you have watched The Inconvenient Truth by Al Gore Ben? Have you also seen a follow up documentary called the Great Global Warming Swindle? Pretty interesting follow up to it. Essentially it states that the media hype is cleverly constructed into gaining funding for climate research (and personally I believe that too). Which whilst sneaky, is also clever and necessary.

One interesting point is geologically speaking (Off the top of my head), we are still in the transition period from an Ice Age into and interglacial. Which I guess is a pretty mad concept when people start talking about climate change. If temperatures did rocket to those predictions, life would still evolve to suit. Just not on a human timescale.

Knowing how humans behave though, nothing will be done whilst fossil fuels are still relatively inexpensive, abundant and can be consumed in so many differing ways. There is an argument for industrialising countries such and China, India, and various African countries to use more sustainable means, but without the cheep renewable technology its not going to happen. How do you get funding for technology? Make a problem.

So yeah, dont really know what I was getting at, but I believe that climate change is a huge problem. Yeah a load of those documentary's are full of political media hype. But ultimately we need it for the kick up the arse.

Edited March 24, 2013 by trialsmax04

[TROYston]

Global warming needs to happen and f**k this snow off.
And then we should steal walkers adver to attact some boats to the UK (missing off scotland) and tow is to somewhere hot. I saw it on TV so whats to say we couldnt do it.
/topic

Edited March 24, 2013 by TROYston

[eskimo]

stuff

I think allot of peoples attitudes on this are the same as that.

The whine over global warming is getting so old now. It will not be changed and according to the youtube TED talk (with added music for dramatisation btw) the guy already said its done for and we can not change it so there we go.

I clocked that straight off, but it's not an official TED video, just a fan/ viewer edited one.

Global warming needs to happen and f**k this snow off.

And then we should steal walkers adver to attact some boats to the UK (missing off scotland) and tow is to somewhere hot. I saw it on TV so whats to say we couldnt do it.

/topic

We had snow 4 and 8 years ago here. Considerably more than we had at the weekend, which was f**k all. The weather report also stated, "it could be the coldest March in 50 years", and i've not heard anything else, so i guess we didn't break it.

As i said on bookface to Ben, instant changes to the world (if we are to beat his figures) aren't feasible if we want to continue living in some sort of similar way as we are now.

[1a2bcio8]

I'll respond to people specifically at some point when I feel well again. I don't have the energy or focus for proper debate at the moment. For now here's an example of the ways in which individuals in government act in the interests of big business regarding the climate. Obviously in this instance those efforts were defeated but, none the less, this is illustrative of motives that do exist and can get their way on a different day. This is also illustrative of what we face here in the UK and all countries within which powerful and wealthy interests reside and shape politics to their own ends. Short-term profit is held to be more important than the type of world we are making and its effects in our future and others.

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/03/24/1764581/7-deadly-amendments-attempted-to-protect-dirty-energy-and-trash-the-climate/

[Matt Vandart]

There is s simple and easy way to start changes, no vote. On election day no one votes, as in not just TF people, everyone.

This one simple step would start the change to completely change everything.

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

How about we all stop the hippy stuff of trying to adjust the earths temperature to what we "think" and "want" it to be so it can be "safe" for the humans..

If we all leave all our fridge doors open will we reduce the global temperature and save the polar bears?

[casualjoe]

A senior british scientist has recently gone public about the whole situation on the bbc, which is nice.

[Greetings]

That's what I've always said. Turns out I was wrong and the dinosaurs were driving around in massive V8's and leaving their LCD's on while they went out!

It could be them driving around in big cars and not unplugging chargers when not used but it could also be something else; if cows produce a lot of methane then imagine the aftermath of a dinosaur fart.

Personally I hope global warming will continue, it was -19C at night today and it's almost April. f**k such weather.

[Mark W]

There is s simple and easy way to start changes, no vote. On election day no one votes, as in not just TF people, everyone.

This one simple step would start the change to completely change everything.

That would never work. For that to work, the whole mechanics of government would have to be complicit with it which is obviously never, ever going to happen. Even if nobody voted, do you think they'd suddenly just dismantle the power system in the UK? If you actually hold any believe in that that's laughable. If you don't, why even waste your time posting it?

Again, like I said in that other thread, why not actually advice that would actually help instead of just talking about how we're all forcing ourselves to extinction?

[casualjoe]

Not sure if you've noticed, but there are people out there who don't even think that it's real, so it's important to first get everyone on board with the reality. No one wants it to be true, and many people reject change, even (supposedly well eductated) people latching on to some skeptical documentary, well known for bending the truth, in light of all the peer reviewed evidence.

But in TFs case, it's mainly the guys with their head so far up Clarksons ass that all they can see is bullshit.

[1a2bcio8]

One thing I have always wondered about Global warming is.........before humans, there was an ice age. Then it ended. So the world cooled dramatically on its own and the then warmed up on its own.

Isn't global warming sort of what happens anyway? Maybe humans aren't helping the speeds of these but this planet has done stuff all by itself before and will do again?

.....Just a passing thought

The earth is continually cycling between warmer periods and significant and minor ice-ages which are predominantly caused by the earth's orbit of the sun. The periods of change, however, are relatively large; that is, relatively large, compared to the changes that have occurred since the industrial era which is one significant indication of man-made climate change. It is no longer in doubt that we have disrupted the natural change of climate.

Or waste time reading conflicting reports?

If you want to spend your life worrying about it so that the next generation can do the same, you go ahead - for me that seems like a waste of my life.

You're totally missing the point. The cost of global warming will affect you. This has already begun to happen around the world regarding changes to the climate. Flooding in the UK will increase dramatically. I don't have the predictions to hand, regarding the increased cost and therefore burden upon our countries economy but I have some numbers regarding the costs in America. The insurance costs for hurricanes was, in the 1980s, calculated to never supersede 1bn. However, Hurricane Andrew cost insurance companies 21bn and totalled 37bn in overall economic loss. Storm intensity has been steadily increasing over the years and will continue to do so due to global warming.

Furthermore, the following generations won't just be worrying about it; they will be living it, like you, but to a much more significant extent. We can expect droughts, famine, etc.

Technologies and policies are already in existence which could put a significant halt on global warming but they aren't used or adhered to. The cost of doing so increases massively each year we do nothing. Again, I wish I had the statistics to hand. We currently do nothing because most people are apathetic and no real pressure exists on governments to do much. The pressure and rewards from big business currently outweighs the efforts of an engaged and concerned minority.

http://www.climatehotmap.org/global-warming-effects/economy.html

Watch the video, it answers all of those questions.

I watched it and my stance hasn't changed. I don't want to read, I don't want to learn, I don't want to understand or be enlightened, I want to be TOLD WHAT TO DO. This is crucially what you (Ben) and all these videos and stories don't tell us yet is what to do. What's the point in all this research if you don't tell us what to do? Quite frankly I'm tired of being told to read stuff without actually seeing any action.

I won't be replying again or watching/reading anything you post on this matter again Ben unless I start seeing something I can actually do. All that video told me really was that I need to do something impossible, but didn't actually tell me what that was, which is no f**king use to anyone. I want to do my bit, and I want to help if I can, but how can I do that if I don't know what that is?

If you don't want to read and only want to be told what to do then you're a part of the problem. There is a serious issue with apathy and self-interest even though climate change is ultimately about the latter.

The point of research is being informed so that you are placed to either pressurise governments, big business or understand current affairs enough so that democracy is functioning. To the extent that our population is ignorant, disinterested, etc. then we are ripe for exploitation and there's no real democracy. If you actually had a sense of what was going on then a government which actually represented genuinely healthy human interests could come to power. Instead, people understand the world through mainstream television, newspaper, etc. - if even that - and end up with a distorted view of things. This follows from being passive and not thinking for yourself which you've indicated to me is the case by asking for me to tell you everything you need to know. I'm not interested in you being an extension of my thinking, rather, I'm interested in you learning to think for yourself with the belief that some conclusions are more reasonable and should be followed because of the weight of evidence - such as the threat of global warming. Passively adopting what other people tell you is the underlying problem of society so I'm hardly going to promote that.

How about we all stop the hippy stuff of trying to adjust the earths temperature to what we "think" and "want" it to be so it can be "safe" for the humans.. let mankind heat the world up with all of our carbon and then let the earth manage this change by flooding us out. Then we will simply revert back to how the world actual wants to be and the cycle will begin again.

The whine over global warming is getting so old now. It will not be changed and according to the youtube TED talk (with added music for dramatisation btw) the guy already said its done for and we can not change it so there we go.

Why is it only in the area of climate change you want to stop 'thinking', 'wanting' and 'safety' yet presumably these are concerns which dictate the rest of your life or do you simply walk out in front of traffic because you're too hip for any of that stuff?

I didn't relate to the music dramatisation I had to admit but really that's an unimportant point. What's essential is the facts and arguments. Why not actually address them rather than a type of superficial character assassination?

And it's not whining is the motivation comes from a sincere interest in the well-being of others.

Global warming needs to happen and f**k this snow off.

And then we should steal walkers adver to attact some boats to the UK (missing off scotland) and tow is to somewhere hot. I saw it on TV so whats to say we couldnt do it.

/topic

Expect more forms of extreme weather with global warming. Ultimately the average global temperature will increase but weather will vary more dramatically depending on the area. Initially it will get colder in some places and hotter in others.

As i said on bookface to Ben, instant changes to the world (if we are to beat his figures) aren't feasible if we want to continue living in some sort of similar way as we are now.

Sorry I didn't respond to you on Facebook. I've been feeling a bit unwell and didn't have the energy to engage again. I did actually pick up on your points but I chose not to respond to all of them in the previous post. I don't think I've heard anyone suggest that simply switching off everything is the key. That wouldn't work. Even if we do want to change there will have to be some period of doing so. The point is that technologies and policies do exist but they aren't being used. The current system seeks short-term gains over everything else. We also need to channel more money into developing technology even to completely kill our dependency on oil, etc. These don't have to amount to anarchy although undoubtedly some changes will be required. The point is that global warming is set to totally change the way the world operates anyway.

That would never work. For that to work, the whole mechanics of government would have to be complicit with it which is obviously never, ever going to happen. Even if nobody voted, do you think they'd suddenly just dismantle the power system in the UK? If you actually hold any believe in that that's laughable. If you don't, why even waste your time posting it?

Again, like I said in that other thread, why not actually advice that would actually help instead of just talking about how we're all forcing ourselves to extinction?

I agree that not voting won't amount to much - not that I can comprehend anyway.

Regarding your second point though, I think you've missed a theme I've repeatedly emphasised not just in this thread but in others before. We can't do anything by ourselves; we can only fully achieve change through mass movement. The underpinning of any organisation is a proper understanding of the reality you're organising against. After all, how do you play football until you know the rules? You might be able to have a go but you'll be much more ineffective until you do. The fundamental problem of positive change is a mass of people who can't be bothered to think for themselves or investigate the world; rather they want to be passively fed their world view and are then hostile or afraid of anything that differs to it. It's possible that this quality may win over until it's too late.

By yourself you can write to government, protest, vote properly, etc. but none of that is meaningful alone. It is weighted by how many people are doing it. An informed populace could chose a government that served it regarding what was actually good for it. That's where I disagree with Matt because I think the system could potentially work. It's just democracy isn't meaningful without the knowledge to vote according to the way reality actually is.

Why is my bringing you evidence of serious problems in the world not enough? I don't really understand the argument that it's not enough? Where do you draw the line of what I'm supposed to do for all of you? I actually find it difficult to understand that there isn't a significant curiosity and concern about serious matters that will probably effect you and others such that you aren't all going off to explore and find out what the situation is and figuring out what you can do to help.

I've written this quickly and don't have time to check it. Apologies for bad grammar, etc.

[casualjoe]

In the words of Winston Churchill "If you want an argument against democracy, have a 5 minute conversation with the average voter."

But yea I think the best way we can curb air pollution is through what we buy, although its difficult to know which companies are really carbon neutral there are a few that stand out at present:

GoodEnergy are a renewable energy company you could switch to with only a phone call, electricity prices are competitive, show them some support.

BELU water are good if you must buy plastic bottled water.

Considering it takes over 6 calories of oil to put 1 calorie of food in a supermarket, or the land/water/food requirement for farming cattle and other animals could feed 10 times the amount of people, eat way less meat, learn how to cook nice veg and beans, nuts and seeds, without meat and you will also be healthier for it, healthy is wealthy haha.

[Matt Vandart]

That would never work. For that to work, the whole mechanics of government would have to be complicit with it which is obviously never, ever going to happen. Even if nobody voted, do you think they'd suddenly just dismantle the power system in the UK? If you actually hold any believe in that that's laughable. If you don't, why even waste your time posting it?

Again, like I said in that other thread, why not actually advice that would actually help instead of just talking about how we're all forcing ourselves to extinction?

You misunderstand.

If no-one and I mean no-one voted, that message of no confidence and unity would wake authorities up IMO not dismantle anything at all.

A non vote result would indeed result in no government and if the current government continued as is then it would show itself to be the farce it is.

All the whole situation needs is a way of everyone saying I'm fed up, mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. This could come in the form of violent protest or revolution type nonsense which is just bollox or everyone peacefully registering their disdain for the current system which is better.

Many people are under the 'I'm alright jack' delusion.

Your not al-right even if you think you are, or at least you are not in the best position you could be.

Fact of the matter is that you are all getting robbed, unless you are the ones doing the robbing.

Robbed of an education, robbed of a fair life, robbed of freedoms, robbed of the right to live in a planet without hate and environmental madness, quite apart from the global warming stuff.

Just look at students now. Leaving university in massive debt, what the f**k is that all about? Unless your rich of course in which case you can leave with a positive bank account, my sister did.

It's about getting you locked into the consumer/debt society. It's bondage just like a mortgage.

I think I could safely bet that no-one on this forum is actually benefiting from the current system in place.

[Mark W]

If no-one and I mean no-one voted, that message of no confidence and unity would wake authorities up IMO not dismantle anything at all.

A non vote result would indeed result in no government and if the current government continued as is then it would show itself to be the farce it is.

Did you just misunderstand what I posted or not even read it? I specifically said that it's not ever going to happen unless the people involved in the government take part themselves, which is obviously not going to happen. There are parties of supporters for MPs in each constituency as well as people who believe that the government is 'right', so even if the general population don't vote there's still going to be that hard core of supporters that would. That's why I was saying that what you're saying is just empty, meaningless words. Proposing a change that is never, ever going to happen as being a solution people should think about is pointless.

Similarly, do you realistically think that if no-one voted the government, or the whole structure of power in the UK would just vanish? Centuries of an entrenched system isn't just going to disappear because things didn't quite go how they hoped...

Why is my bringing you evidence of serious problems in the world not enough? I don't really understand the argument that it's not enough? Where do you draw the line of what I'm supposed to do for all of you? I actually find it difficult to understand that there isn't a significant curiosity and concern about serious matters that will probably effect you and others such that you aren't all going off to explore and find out what the situation is and figuring out what you can do to help.

I guess it's because of some of the tone that it's been delivered in in the past, to some extent? The people who are claiming to have done the research and know the facts of the situation - hence them being concerned enough to bring it to more peoples attentions - should have some idea of what can realistically be done to change things, so it doesn't really make sense to me that the rhetoric ends at posting links and quoting sources rather than presenting realistic ideas that they've worked out could actually be implemented? For example, Matt is one of the people who seems to go on about "big issues" quite often, yet "Don't vote" is as empty a proposed solution as just saying "Everyone should never use electricity again". Yes, that would theoretically stop a lot of problems we have, but it isn't something that's ever going to occur and never will do, so there's no point in clouding the issue and putting people off looking into things more themselves if they think that all they'll find is more empty posturing by people claiming to "know more"?

That's sort of why I don't see the point in just pinning hopes on everyone clubbing together for "mass movement" or a similar "big idea". It's unlikely to ever materialise, whereas incremental changes to peoples lifestyles and decisions will eventually have a cumulative effect. Admittedly it won't be much to stop the tide of change, but it's something that could actively spark an interest for people by showing them they themselves can make a difference, rather than just overpowering them with facts about how everything's f**ked unless the nation rises? I'm aware that's a hugely simplified version of what you're talking about, but hopefully it sheds some light onto the angle I'm coming from. To use a real world example, in Wales plastic carrier bags are no longer free and consequenty usage has dropped by 90%. That's clearly just a drop in the ocean and I'm not saying it really means much in a global scale, but it's undeniably a positive step. It's clearly a financially motivated step to some extent, but it's still a change that people have made. That's the sort of incremental step I'm referring to, as that actually achieves something, even if what it achieves is relatively minor.

[hI-OOPS-CAPS]

I'm not interested in you being an extension of my thinking, rather, I'm interested in you learning to think for yourself with the belief that some conclusions are more reasonable and should be followed because of the weight of evidence - such as the threat of global warming. Passively adopting what other people tell you is the underlying problem of society so I'm hardly going to promote that.

So what research have you done into global warming? I suppose you could only have quite a strong opinion on global warming if you have involved yourself in a fair amount of research. Climate change may not be due to human activity. It could be coincidence that greenhouse gas output happened at the time as some unknown or poorly understood phenomenon; though it would seem highly unlikely. I believe the stuff we're doing to help global warming at the moment is in vain. Our attempt to consider to environment is so insignificant as a planet and it will remain like that until, though it sounds very cornie, there are huge or widespread natural disasters.