Echo sl Freewheel?

[Sam Song]

HEI EVERYONE!!

I've been riding a same Chris King hub for 5 years and what is this thread about?

Edited March 18, 2013 by Sam Song

[0zzy]

if you expect 2 seasons from a freewheel i honestly do think you expect too much.

[Jake.]

if you expect 2 seasons from a freewheel i honestly do think you expect too much.

I'm still using the same echo freewheel i got second hand this time last year...

[bing]

My try all 108.9 is at least a year old, and its previous owner and me have had no trouble whatsoever with it

[0zzy]

I'm still using the same echo freewheel i got second hand this time last year...

My try all 108.9 is at least a year old, and its previous owner and me have had no trouble whatsoever with it

what your expecting and what you should be getting is two completely different things, i think that a part which involves such high stress and you get a season out of it is good enough for me. yes your freewheel might last 3 years etc but they are just the odd ones, people expect trials parts to last forever for what £80?? are you mad?? £80 for a part that has so much stress on it and is one of the key fundimental parts of trials biking.

Edited March 18, 2013 by 0zzy

[ghostrider88]

80 pounds is a LOT for such a simple part, acs freewheels cost like 10-15 quids, I haven´t seen many broken pawls in those and not so long ago they were very popular. Same goes for tensile. So what are you paying for? More EP´s have nothing to do with pawls breaking if you wanna bring that up btw, it´s deffo material or heat treatment what´s causing this. And the most important part is, that for the first generation of SL freewheels two years was a standard, not something uncommon. If they were like this from the start, I believe not many would recommend them. The fact they don´t skip might actually make it worse, because you don´t expect it to fail when it all out of sudden does. With other freewheels you know something is not ok when they skip and you actually can do something with it, take it apart and give it a clean. In case of SL when they skip, you know it´s time for a new one since spare parts are not avaible.

[bing]

I don't buy parts expecting them to last any given time, I buy them based on reports and the cost. A part will last until it breaks, simple as that, wether its 2 months or two years. It all comes down to value for money, if a £60 echo sl freewheel only lasts 2 months, then that's clearly not value for money. But getting a year out of one maybe is, and a year out of a tensile 60 clock definitely is.

[0zzy]

80 pounds is a LOT for such a simple part, acs freewheels cost like 10-15 quids, I haven´t seen many broken pawls in those and not so long ago they were very popular. Same goes for tensile. So what are you paying for? More EP´s have nothing to do with pawls breaking if you wanna bring that up btw, it´s deffo material or heat treatment what´s causing this. And the most important part is, that for the first generation of SL freewheels two years was a standard, not something uncommon. If they were like this from the start, I believe not many would recommend them. The fact they don´t skip might actually make it worse, because you don´t expect it to fail when it all out of sudden does. With other freewheels you know something is not ok when they skip and you actually can do something with it, take it apart and give it a clean. In case of SL when they skip, you know it´s time for a new one since spare parts are not avaible.

acs freewheel is from the stone age and is certainly shit and should not even be mentioned, i think its quite clear that a echo sl is 60 ish quid better then a acs, and i think any body with any common sense would agree. fair enough the first batch were better, yes thats just industry you get good batches you get bad batches etc. i know they are quite un-predictable when they snap but thats trials, are you able to tell me when your chain is gunna snap? its just the same risk. everything does have a certain lifetime. spare parts available would be a great idea but i dont think trials is that big of a sport yet, where as i think trials is more of a replace when it breaks instead of a mend the broken kinda situation. i think that your expectations of trials productions to be lasting from two years from such stresses is mad and i do not understand why people can not understand that, trials parts does not have the research that the rest of the cycling world does that is because of the market, you simply can not expect trials biking parts to last forever and it is just the simple. the echo freewheel is fine in every case i have seen they have been brilliant and by far superior in comparrison to the rest of the freewheel market. especially when you consider that its only say 20 quid more then the other freewheels and is a lot better.

[0zzy]

I don't buy parts expecting them to last any given time, I buy them based on reports and the cost. A part will last until it breaks, simple as that, wether its 2 months or two years. It all comes down to value for money, if a £60 echo sl freewheel only lasts 2 months, then that's clearly not value for money. But getting a year out of one maybe is, and a year out of a tensile 60 clock definitely is.

that is where you get the warrenty! use it i swear people dont use the warrenty and are scared to use them just bitch about the part which breaks. yes a part will last untill it breaks that is nothing but common sense. value for money is very important and you are getting a far superior freewheel for not much more money when you buy the echo. tensile 60 click : echo sl is 109 thats nearly double. you are not even comparing two similar things one is far superior. if you can not notice 59 engagements difference then perhaps you riding is not at that level yet no offence. there is only one superior freewheel on the market at the moment, and that is the sl. i agree with mark (for once ) aha its just trials forum rumours and bullshit hearsay that people hate a product for little to no reason and with half the time very little logic.

[ghostrider88]

acs freewheel is from the stone age and is certainly shit and should not even be mentioned, i think its quite clear that a echo sl is 60 ish quid better then a acs, and i think any body with any common sense would agree. fair enough the first batch were better, yes thats just industry you get good batches you get bad batches etc. i know they are quite un-predictable when they snap but thats trials, are you able to tell me when your chain is gunna snap? its just the same risk. everything does have a certain lifetime. spare parts available would be a great idea but i dont think trials is that big of a sport yet, where as i think trials is more of a replace when it breaks instead of a mend the broken kinda situation. i think that your expectations of trials productions to be lasting from two years from such stresses is mad and i do not understand why people can not understand that, trials parts does not have the research that the rest of the cycling world does that is because of the market, you simply can not expect trials biking parts to last forever and it is just the simple. the echo freewheel is fine in every case i have seen they have been brilliant and by far superior in comparrison to the rest of the freewheel market. especially when you consider that its only say 20 quid more then the other freewheels and is a lot better.

Of course acs freewheels aren´t in the same league, but if pawls didn´t snap in those, that means they were using better material for them obviously, they skipped a lot and the pawls still held up. I wanted to use chain example as well, I think we can all agree chain is just as important as freewheel, but you can buy 610hx chain for 5pounds, FIVE. So even if you change chains every 3months which deffo isn´t neccessary if you don´t ride 20hours/week you get 3full years for 60quids. And most people don´t ride in winter or at least don´t ride as much, so that number most likely is closer to 4years. So as you can see, just because the part is important it doesn´t mean it has to be expensive and anyone should spend loads of money on it. Do you think SL freewheel costs 4-5times more to make than ACS?I honestly don´t. And believe you me I would be happy to buy it for that price if I knew the quality is the same as when they released them. During the first 2years I think noone here mentioned snapping a pawl and there were quite a few topics about them and freewheels in general, if anything bad happened it was snapped outer ring, everyone seemed to recommend them, me included. So something has to be different nowadays, it isn´t just a case of bad luck when in small group of people 3 out of 4 have problems with them.

Edited March 18, 2013 by ghostrider88

[bing]

that is where you get the warrenty! use it i swear people dont use the warrenty and are scared to use them just bitch about the part which breaks. yes a part will last untill it breaks that is nothing but common sense. value for money is very important and you are getting a far superior freewheel for not much more money when you buy the echo. tensile 60 click : echo sl is 109 thats nearly double. you are not even comparing two similar things one is far superior. if you can not notice 59 engagements difference then perhaps you riding is not at that level yet no offence. there is only one superior freewheel on the market at the moment, and that is the sl. i agree with mark (for once ) aha its just trials forum rumours and bullshit hearsay that people hate a product for little to no reason and with half the time very little logic.

I can tell the difference between engagements, it is very noticeable. I once had this same argument with someone about golf balls. He told me I couldn't tell the difference between a £41 per dozen titleist pro v1, and a £12 per dozen top flite titanium. In the end I hit them both blindfolded, and I knew straight away which was the more expensive one, because of the feel. If you gave me the same bike but with two different freewheels on, I along with most of the trials fraternity could tell what freewheel was on it, by noise and feel. Yeah I may not be the best rider on the planet, but I know my parts and would not buy an echo sl at this moment in time. They are not far superior, they just feel different. Just because something is more money doesn't make it more superior, most of the time you are paying for a name. Its badge snobbery to most people. If someone were to offer me a tensile or an echo, I'd take the tensile every time, because I know its a quality product and it won't break

Edited March 18, 2013 by bing

[Mark W]

More EP´s have nothing to do with pawls breaking if you wanna bring that up btw, it´s deffo material or heat treatment what´s causing this.

Yes it does? If you look at how fine the ratchet is on a higher engagement freewheel compared to a lower engagement one, there's a difference in terms of how much pawl can actually sit in the ratchet, and also the likelihood of them skipping if the spring system isn't up to the job. The shape of the pawls will be different to. To use a direct example, I tested the original Tensile 60-click freewheel, then tested the 96-click. The original 96-click I tried had pawls that worked fine in the 60-click, but because of the difference in ratchet basically just didn't work/engage properly at all. The standard pawls couldn't engage in it properly, and consequently broke. (Sorry if someone's already covered this. This happened to be the first post the forum jumped to when I opened this thread, and as I went through more replies it basically started getting a bit too 'TF' for me to carry on.)

As another side to this, when we get sent back SL freewheels that have broken, we often get ones that look like this:

Because they're dry from the factory they do take a bit more maintenance, so freewheels getting killed off by becoming full of shit or rust exactly a problem with the manufacturer. When the springs/pawls start getting covered in shit and aren't able to react as quickly, that leads to them skipping more which is inevitably going to lead to damage to the mechanism. This carries on (because it seems a lot of riders can't be bothered wasting time on looking after their bikes), and eventually stuff breaks.

[Joe Papasnap Maher]

[Blake]

Please let that be it.

[trials hoe]

snip

the inside of that looks grim . there any easy way to clean it up without taking the lockring off? my sl is off my cranks at the mo' so it prob a good time to give it a good clean.

was thinking leaving it to sit in some rc fuel for a while, but if it looks like that inside I doubt it'll get it all out. the lockrings easy to undo? never tried with mine and have no idea what thread it is (left hand or right hand)

[ghostrider88]

Yes it does? If you look at how fine the ratchet is on a higher engagement freewheel compared to a lower engagement one, there's a difference in terms of how much pawl can actually sit in the ratchet, and also the likelihood of them skipping if the spring system isn't up to the job. The shape of the pawls will be different to. To use a direct example, I tested the original Tensile 60-click freewheel, then tested the 96-click. The original 96-click I tried had pawls that worked fine in the 60-click, but because of the difference in ratchet basically just didn't work/engage properly at all. The standard pawls couldn't engage in it properly, and consequently broke.

In both acs and SL when pawl is in engaged position it sits fully in the ratchet, so in that way it´s really the same. But, when acs skips(which happens a lot), it puts more stress on the pawl because of that less fine ratchet, it´s "harder" skip as the next ep is much further, SL hadn´t even skipped on me, the pawl just broke. Also my freewheels are always clean, I don´t ride in the mud or even rain. I also spray teflon lube in it every month or so, just for peace of mind. When I took it apart everything I found was pawl broken in half,ratchet was fine and everything was clean. same with the one of my friend which was only 3weeks old and he isn´t a monter by any means and was using rockman 72 freewheel before for 2seasons, it was skipping all the time, but the pawls held just fine. Mark I have one question for you, could you tell me if I could use SL springs in others fw? The slot where it sits looks the same, but I´m not sure and this is what I would like to do with my new freewheel. Thanks.

the inside of that looks grim . there any easy way to clean it up without taking the lockring off? my sl is off my cranks at the mo' so it prob a good time to give it a good clean.

was thinking leaving it to sit in some rc fuel for a while, but if it looks like that inside I doubt it'll get it all out. the lockrings easy to undo? never tried with mine and have no idea what thread it is (left hand or right hand)

The lockring has normal treads on it, it isn´t easy to take off but with the right tool it isn´t that hard. I did it without one using small punch and hammer, just put the removal tool in the vice and use the punch to loosen it up.

Edited March 18, 2013 by ghostrider88

[trials hoe]

The lockring has normal treads on it, it isn´t easy to take off but with the right tool it isn´t that hard. I did it without one using small punch and hammer, just put the removal tool in the vice and use the punch to loosen it up.

that's the way i was thinking of doing it, so it turns anti-clockwise to undo with the lockring facing upwards?

[ghostrider88]

that's the way i was thinking of doing it, so it turns anti-clockwise to undo with the lockring facing upwards?

Yes

[Mark W]

In both acs and SL when pawl is in engaged position it sits fully in the ratchet, so in that way it´s really the same.

That's why I specifically mentioned the depth of the ratchet. If a ratchet is deeper (because there are fewer EPs so it can be), it gives the tip of the pawl more support (which again was part of the problem with the 60vs96 click Tensile protos - the original 60-click pawls had a more rounded tip, and because the ratchet was shallower it wasn't able to engage in it properly, and consequently became damaged). You also have more leeway with the angle of the pawl, so you can have a gentler angle for the pawl on a lower EP freewheel which should (theoretically) help out too. I'm not debating specific freewheels here, but saying that the number of EPs won't affect the reliability of a freewheel is incorrect.

[ghostrider88]

That's why I specifically mentioned the depth of the ratchet. If a ratchet is deeper (because there are fewer EPs so it can be), it gives the tip of the pawl more support (which again was part of the problem with the 60vs96 click Tensile protos - the original 60-click pawls had a more rounded tip, and because the ratchet was shallower it wasn't able to engage in it properly, and consequently became damaged). You also have more leeway with the angle of the pawl, so you can have a gentler angle for the pawl on a lower EP freewheel which should (theoretically) help out too. I'm not debating specific freewheels here, but saying that the number of EPs won't affect the reliability of a freewheel is incorrect.

Ok now please read the rest of that post

[CC12345678910]

could you tell me if I could use SL springs in others fw? The slot where it sits looks the same, but I´m not sure and this is what I would like to do with my new freewheel. Thanks.

Yep. they fit in try-all 108/Trialtech 108 no probs. A friend has this on his bike right now. Sounds just like an 8prong SL too, suggesting it may be a good bodge.

[Mark W]

Sounds just like an 8prong SL too...

Yeah, I know what you mean about the sounds between the '8 prong SL' and the '4 slot SL'. It's like Take That from 2005-2010 (what I refer to as their 'wilderness years') when they performed without Robbie Williams - I just couldn't relate to their music in the same way.

[ghostrider88]

Yep. they fit in try-all 108/Trialtech 108 no probs. A friend has this on his bike right now. Sounds just like an 8prong SL too, suggesting it may be a good bodge.

Thanks

[N.Wood]

Mark get your bucket and spade ready, when my SL turns up you'll have enough of the Jurassic Coast in there to make a small sandcastle.

[Mark W]

Haha, it's Stan who'll be dealing with it. I suspect it'll be going directly from your freewheel into his vagina.