Rob Leech Posted September 13, 2012 Report Share Posted September 13, 2012 Genuine question.... with mountain bike technologies like bolt through axles how viable would this be to create out of steel? With the Skye being a relatively up to date bike in comparison to most trials bikes...could that set-up be achieved with steel? I mean there are no steel mountain bikes, and i'm guessing with all their linkages, forms, pivots etc steel wouldn't be viable? I mean some MTB frames command a pretty decent price and if steel was stronger for a similar weight to alloy then surely they'd just make it out of steel? But it's always alloy or carbon. I imagine it's more to do with the application of the frame as opposed to steel is just better for everything, but alloy is cheaper... I'd say it was easily achievable to produce a structurally sound steel full suser' frame. There are frames builders around (mainly in the US) that use steel to construct MTB specific frames. The big difference is that the main fixtures would'nt have to be machined but cut and folded/pressed sections, reducing cost by quite a large margin in those areas, but no where else. It's not so much that alloy is cheaper, but the fact that to achieve the same weight as an alloy frame, you'd be looking at 3 times the price in steel (for the very anoying reason that steel prices go up wildly when you move into thin wall stuff). You could make a steel frame for the same price as an ally frame quite easily, but it'd be about the same weight as the moon (if my calculations are correct ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 It's not so much that alloy is cheaper, but the fact that to achieve the same weight as an alloy frame, you'd be looking at 3 times the price in steel (for the very anoying reason that steel prices go up wildly when you move into thin wall stuff). You could make a steel frame for the same price as an ally frame quite easily, but it'd be about the same weight as the moon (if my calculations are correct ). Right so, it's not that Alloy is cheaper, its that thin steel is more expensive? That's like saying "I'm not shorter than you, you're just taller than me" Hahaha. When I said Aluminium is cheaper I was trying to simplify the debate. Alloys scrap value is more than steel. Turning a lump of Aluminium alloy into a suitable trials frame is a lot cheaper than turning a lump of steel into a "suitable" trials frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) have you ever asked yourself the questions why coke,not pepsi? why sony,not cheap taiwan fake? because people buy it. and other people see,that others buyed. and that makes trends. hundred years of bicyle handcrafting with steel vs a few with robot-welded alu. consumption!!! just think about it.... it all just shows in wich times we live Edited September 14, 2012 by FamilyBiker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewEH1 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 hundred years of bicyle handcrafting with steel vs a few with robot-welded alu. it all just shows in wich times we live A time in which technology moves us forward... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) A time in which technology moves us forward... to where is that in your opinion? yeah to burnout syndrome and all that innovations wich make our highspeed lifes that easy would you like to be the guy who adjusts the robot that could spare him rather than the framebuilder who loves what he does ? Edited September 14, 2012 by FamilyBiker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewEH1 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 yeah to burnout syndrome and all that innovations wich make our lifes that easy would you like to be the guy who adjusts the robot rather than the framebuilder? The quality of mass production, if done correctly, can be very high - just look at the Japanese. Along with mass production come lower prices for the consumer, which is good. I'd agree with you that the 'art' of quality frame building should never be lost, that's why I bought an Orange Five, but for the vast majority of people they would be satisfied with something off a production line. But we are now getting off track a little and in danger of our posts getting deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) have you ever asked yourself the questions why coke,not pepsi? why sony,not cheap taiwan fake? because people buy it. and other people see,that others buyed. and that makes trends. hundred years of bicyle handcrafting with steel vs a few with robot-welded alu. consumption!!! just think about it.... it all just shows in wich times we live My five is aluminium and a robot didn't make it, a northerner did so it'll b highly inaccurate a bit skewed and fairly ugly.... And as most would say pretty old fashioned so your theory don't hold all that water. I also genuinely don't believe that in tr MTB work that nearly everything is alloy because it's a trend. I fully appreciate trends are a huge part of MTBing but not for alloy over steel. There's sure to be much more to it as has been discussed. Edited September 14, 2012 by Matthew62 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) i think that was kinda topic related. a lot of the purchases of alu frames are provoked by companies image work wich results in the trends developing. everyone,except dirt bike companies and such,stopped building high quality steel frames,making them the expensive ones. if the same amount of crmo frames were produced as alu frames are this times,they could be even cheaper based on the better availability of base materials for the production of steel. iron is there in a huge bigger amount then bauxit(is it named that in english?base stuff for alu). would steel frames go into mass production in every genre again,it would be the same price-wise. alu is great,you sell it,then sell something new again. steel is boring...it lasts longer as youll like your bike... edit: if you´d just know how many alu frames broke in 60 years of the bike workshop i am working at,and how many steel ones. and thats for trekking Edited September 14, 2012 by FamilyBiker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Alloys not exactly throw away. It's not like it's the primark of building materials. Edited September 14, 2012 by Matthew62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clerictgm Posted September 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 if you´d just know how many alu frames broke in 60 years of the bike workshop i am working at,and how many steel ones. Tell us, approximately. Very interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 But your number would only be relevant to trekking. Can you tell me how many Alu DH frames have snapped compared to steel ones? Same for XC and so on? Also would it be relevant to use a figure that comments on alloy frames from 1952? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Leech Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Right so, it's not that Alloy is cheaper, its that thin steel is more expensive? That's like saying "I'm not shorter than you, you're just taller than me" Hahaha. When I said Aluminium is cheaper I was trying to simplify the debate. Alloys scrap value is more than steel. Turning a lump of Aluminium alloy into a suitable trials frame is a lot cheaper than turning a lump of steel into a "suitable" trials frame. Well, yeah, pretty much. Fact is that the weight of the final product is a large factor these days, so trying to acheive a frame with the same weight in steel would not be viable to most companies. But, on the other side of that, there are the post fabrication process's to take into account. Heat treatment of aluminium isn't cheap, unless you own the kit to do it. Trying to simplify a debate on here!!!!! Good luck buddy . EDIT- Think of it as a weight to cost ratio, might explain my point a bit clearer . Edited September 14, 2012 by Rob Leech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al_Fel Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Well, yeah, pretty much. Fact is that the weight of the final product is a large factor these days, so trying to acheive a frame with the same weight in steel would not be viable to most companies. But, on the other side of that, there are the post fabrication process's to take into account. Heat treatment of aluminium isn't cheap, unless you own the kit to do it. Trying to simplify a debate on here!!!!! Good luck buddy . EDIT- Think of it as a weight to cost ratio, might explain my point a bit clearer . You're a funny chap. You keep agreeing with me in an argumentative way haha Trials bikes are made from Aluminium alloy because its cheaper to mass produce. Simple. I think the aphorism you're looking for is, "Strong, Light, Cheap. Pick Two." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Tell us, approximately. Very interested. was at work today and checked it out:in the five years i am working there: trekking: 12 broken alloy frames 1 steel frame mtb: 6 broken alloy 1 steel bmx: steel:none(there were 3 made of alloy,gt power series) all bikes were in the 1000+ euro range,except the bmx bikes. timeline was from 2007 till now(last frame was a fullsus trekking last week) did my part... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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