TROYston Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 blah Did Mr. Tartybikes touch you in a private place as a little boy? Its okay your secret is safe here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) look what i found http://www.trials-fo...__reset__st__60 no mention about your grease storry in there watson, why didnt you say that then ? yes im calling you a bull shitter... oh and the same old we need to deal with the manufacture shit. just wondering what qualifications you have in engineering and what experience you have ? im guessing you got a degree in CAD or some thing of the sort. Edited July 4, 2012 by dave33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmertrials Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 This topic is now in my favourites ready to be bumped in 2020 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the mysterious leemur Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) look what i found http://www.trials-fo...__reset__st__60 no mention about your grease storry in there watson, why didnt you say that then ? yes im calling you a bull shitter... oh and the same old we need to deal with the manufacture shit. just wondering what qualifications you have in engineering and what experience you have ? im guessing you got a degree in CAD or some thing of the sort. I don't see why your making such a fuss about tarty , from what that thread said it is reset who makes the decisions on wether to replace it and they said no , just how it works. Also it's your fault because as you say in there you weren't listening and just agreed with what Ali said. That shifts any ( if there was any ) blame on tarty's shoulders onto yours. And think about it , from their point of view it looks like you used spacers and then changed your story , it's not for me to say your telling the truth or not but they can't be sure . Think of it like a court case and a witness doesn't listen correctly and then gives a different answer later , it might not be their fault but they still can not be trusted with evidence. If that makes no sense , sorry I haven't had any coffee today ... IMO Edited July 4, 2012 by the mysterious leemur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake. Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 (edited) Thread of the month Edited July 5, 2012 by JMCD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 I am a tool just wondering what qualifications you have in engineering and what experience you have ? im guessing you got a degree in CAD or some thing of the sort. Do you want some ketchup? (chip joke) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 So who gives and who takes ? Or do you just get spunked over ?? Do you want some ketchup? (chip joke) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR28 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 no mention about your grease storry in there watson, why didnt you say that then ? yes im calling you a bull shitter... just wondering what qualifications you have in engineering and what experience you have ? im guessing you got a degree in CAD or some thing of the sort. When dealing with awkward customers, I always like to hold something back. In terms of engineering qualifications, I do have a degree in sports engineering, and completed a year of a masters in mechanical (which was utterly boring), however I am usually embarrassed to be associated with 'engineers' as they are, in general, the most unpleasant people to deal with. I also don't really see how it's relevant in a situation where common sense and logical thought are more useful. You sent a video of a hub in a lathe I think, did you calibrate your eye that morning Personally I would use a DTI to check the radial run out, Which was over .2 lol Oh and not to mention bores being + 0.07 and + 0.02 You could drop the bearings in Yes your right am am a tool maker, with ten years experience in engineering, you just keep playing ith your hubby lathe. Look like you turned a thread on the axle, I havnt measured if but I'd bet my willy that it's way under size So all in all you sold a hub that wasn't fit for purpose, and attempting to fix it made it even less use able But as I didnt buy it from yourselfs I have no contract with you so I'm not to fussed. My point is just that you keep giving the bull shit line about manufactures! Is that a mistake or are you just talking out of your backside ? That's a fair point - didn't think of using my DTI. Thanks for the tip, I shall use that in future. The 6900 bearing I just checked has between 0.36mm and 0.40mm of radial float, so I don't see how that amount of run out in the hub shell would cause an issue? I am quite sure there isn't a single hub in our warehouse that is perfect in that respect. I don't know what gravity is like in Wales, but here in Preston it's 1G. I don't see how you were able to drop the bearings in. You may have been able to seat one of the bearings by hand, but you will notice that the hub came back with one bearing securely in place. We don't need to get all limits and fits here, but we both know by feel when a bearing has a satisfactory amount of resistance when being pressed home, and that one did. It may even be by design that one seat is slightly oversized, so you can use stud and bearing fit on this side, preventing the need to hammer the bearing out when (notice I said when, not if - bearings do have a service life) it needs replacing. That seems unlikely, but it is a possible explanation. As you will know though, a few drops of Loctite 270 will sort this whole thing within 6 hours anyway. Personally, using a bit of common sense, I would have just done that months ago. Hey, and no need to call me a homosexual - I don't think it's even legal to marry a piece of machinery? Maybe in America, but not in England. (Yes, I am aware that was a typo, but you can't take everything so seriously all the time, it's not worth it. Moving on...) The thread thing - not sure what you are referring to there? There are some strange swirls on the axle, but they are certainly not any sort of thread form. It may be a bit of a mess now, after someone bodged fitting a replacement bearing and it needed cleaning up, but you cannot deny that it works fine. Fitness for purpose - see section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979, specifically subsection (2C)( a ) and those referred to within. This 'bull shit line about the manufactures (sic)' thing - I don't see why it's bad that, when we deem something to be outside of warranty, we'll liaise with the manufacturer to see if they'll help instead? If you choose not to take that help, that's your decision. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Why do we not have a popcorn smiley? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isitafox Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 (edited) I am usually embarrassed to be associated with 'engineers' as they are, in general, the most unpleasant people to deal with. Gotta go with that point, when I was a window fitter if we ever did a job for an engineer be it fitting a new door, building a conservatory, fitting a bay window, etc they ALWAYS and I honestly mean every time started sticking their noses in and questioning our methods of working as they were engineers and knew better. If they were that knowledgeable then why didn't they do the job themselves in the first place! Apologies if I offend anyone with this but I'm afraid that's the experience I've had Edited July 5, 2012 by isitafox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Engineer appears to have become a fairly loose term these days which is a bit of a 'catch all' phrase. I can't class myself as a proper engineer but it's scary the number of Aerospace Engineers leaving Uni with good degrees and not an ounce of mechanical understanding/sympathy or the ability to problem solve a mechanical issue to find a solution. It's actually quite worrying that a lot of those graduates will go on to help design the next generation of aircraft... 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 That's a fair point - didn't think of using my DTI. Thanks for the tip, I shall use that in future. Might help next time if you use one before trying to turn down the next axle The 6900 bearing I just checked has between 0.36mm and 0.40mm of radial float, so I don't see how that amount of run out in the hub shell would cause an issue? I am quite sure there isn't a single hub in our warehouse that is perfect in that respect. So now think about the distance between the bearing about 95mm away It's about 5/5mm just a bit over the tolerance you state? I don't know what gravity is like in Wales, but here in Preston it's 1G. I don't see how you were able to drop the bearings in. You may have been able to seat one of the bearings by hand, but you will notice that the hub came back with one bearing securely in place. We don't need to get all limits and fits here, but we both know by feel when a bearing has a satisfactory amount of resistance when being pressed home, and that one did. So most hubs you sell arnt fit for there purpose ? I wonder why some one came up with iso standards ? As you will know though, a few drops of Loctite 270 will sort this whole thing within 6 hours anyway. Personally, using a bit of common sense, I would have just done that months ago. I didnt by a hub to play with loctite. Maybe you should include that in the product discription ? but you cannot deny that it works fine. Urm no as you didn't replace the bearings! The original bearings broke because they were fitted wrong you said? So why not replace them ? Do all the hubs you have arrive with incorrectly fitted bearings ? Fitness for purpose - see section 14 of the Sale of Goods Act 1979, specifically subsection (2C)( a ) and those referred to within. This 'bull shit line about the manufactures (sic)' thing - I don't see why it's bad that, when we deem something to be outside of warranty, we'll liaise with the manufacturer to see if they'll help instead? If you choose not to take that help, that's your decision. So you admit you try to con people by telling them it's not up to you to replace the item ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash-Kennard Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Gotta go with that point, when I was a window fitter if we ever did a job for an engineer be it fitting a new door, building a conservatory, fitting a bay window, etc they ALWAYS and I honestly mean every time started sticking their noses in and questioning our methods of working as they were engineers and knew better. If they were that knowledgeable then why didn't they do the job themselves in the first place! Apologies if I offend anyone with this but I'm afraid that's the experience I've had My dad has been a mechanical engineer for the part part of 30 years now. if there is a job in the house he deems too difficult or time consuming or too much effort to do, he will call someone in to do it. And yes he will check in to see whats happening, I would say thats understandable, someone with genuine knowledge in the subject checking in that he isnt getting a job done half arsed. Engineer appears to have become a fairly loose term these days which is a bit of a 'catch all' phrase. Its the technicians that reckon they are engineers that have watered it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isitafox Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 My dad has been a mechanical engineer for the part part of 30 years now. if there is a job in the house he deems too difficult or time consuming or too much effort to do, he will call someone in to do it. And yes he will check in to see whats happening, I would say thats understandable, someone with genuine knowledge in the subject checking in that he isnt getting a job done half arsed. Yeah that's fair enough it's the ones who deem themselves to be all knowledgeable in every field just because they're qualified in one area of engineering. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 I'm not taking sides here at all but would like to make some points: First bearings if selected to the correct manufacturing specification for the intended purpose can in fact have no 'Service life' if maintained properly i.e lubrication, the alignment/environmental specs are met, then a bearing can last in effect, forever, or certainly a few human life times. This is obviously in the perfect hypothetical world, but they should be expected to last at least a year. The fact of the matter is that spherical bearings are not the best selection for this purpose, specific to trials, most bicycles would never have a problem as they are not being subjected to some serious radial loading, most importantly static radial loading. Just think of the radial loading on the front bearings in for instance a large gap to front, where the brake is locked tight on landing the front wheel. We must also take into consideration that the bearings are never fixed on both axial directions in bicycle hubs, the axial loading is therefore not properly controlled. As in the outer race is only fixed in one direction on each bearing. I havn't the time to write a lengthy explanation of why they are a shit choice (for the riders) for trials wheels so I will just be lazy and quote wiki which is rather lame but all i can be bothered with. [quote Failure modes If a bearing is not rotating, maximum load is determined by force that causes non-elastic deformation of balls. If the balls are flattened, the bearing does not rotate. Maximum load for not or very slowly rotating bearings is called "static" maximum load.[3] If that same bearing is rotating, that deformation tends to knead the ball into roughly a ball shape, so the bearing can still rotate, but if this continues for a long time, the ball fails due to metal fatigue. Maximum load for rotating bearing is called "dynamic" maximum load, and is roughly two or three times as high as static maxload.[3] If a bearing is rotating, but experiences heavy load that lasts shorter than one revolution, static maxload must be used in computations, since the bearing does not rotate during the maximum load.[3]] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 no-one has given a reasonable explanation as to why the bearings failed in the first place, merely 'why we are not to blame' For instance the allegedly machining issue, if that is within spec for these particular bearings and it isn't the reason they failed, then that is all well and good but does not answer why they did fail. Bearings are serviceable items though and will inevitably be 'off the shelf' units chosen for their price:performance by the manufacturer. When sold, any hub may have a dodgy bearing in it which will have a shorter life than designed but because they are replaceable that's life really. We all know trials is hard on components so a dead bearing every now and then should be considered an inevitable issue that you have to deal with. Most of us, especially those with a little mechanical knowledge/skill (you'd think), would just order a new bearing from eBay Tarty and replace it but it seems like certain individuals would rather shoot themselves in the foot by stripping the wheel down, sending the hub back then acting like a spoilt brat when he doesn't get the outcome he'd hoped, even after Adam's gone out of his way to 'make good'. You are right though that Dave comes across as mad as a box of frogs. There is a very real possibility that some products supplied to yourselves are in fact sub standard, manufacturers can and will sell shite that has not been designed/manufactured or tested PROPERLY to make money because at the end of the day, as we can see here, it is you and not the manufacturer that the shit will stick to. That's really the nature of a lot of the trials world though. There's a lot of stuff which is mass produced in Taiwan/China or wherever where you can guarantee the QC checks and tolerances aren't quite as good as somewhere like Hope (ignoring a certain fluid retention device!) but you accept that when you pay half the price of a Hope hub or whatever. Again, combine that potential lack of QC with the hammering trials riders give stuff and components will fail, some more than others. The thing people remember is not what broke or why, but in cases like warranties etc. it's how the problem is dealt with. Trials-UK: Shit service. Tarty Bikes: Excellent service where the staff will bend over backwards to try and make sure their customers are happy and the service they're providing is top notch. Having said that there will always be the odd arse who has to be right all the time and likes making problems for people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 this reminds me of my first trials bike. it was a Pashley 26mhz. I cracked it on the drive side chainstay after about 8 months (mainly due to getting savage chain suck). I took it up with Pashley as I was young and un-aware that frames could break. Pashley refused to warrenty it because the chain suck I had weaked the frame. I was not happy and ended up being pretty rude and arrogant. Eventually they sold me a new frame for half price. To this day I am ashamed in how I acted. Things break, and unless it's something clearly not right from when I first open the box, I just deal with it. The bearings in my bb right now are worn out after 3 months. I don't see it as a big deal. I'm not going to be asking for more. It's such a shame that you think the way you do Dave. Perhaps the best answer would be for you to make your own products that I'm sure would be perfect in every way or to start up your own shop so you can deal with customers only the way you can. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoze Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Dave if you're such an amazing engineer why the f**k didn't you just fix this yourself? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bing Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Dave if you're such an amazing engineer why the f**k didn't you just fix this yourself? thank you mr skoze. finally a bit of common sense. Dave, stop slagging tartys. if they are as shite as you make out, why do so many people use them? if they piss you off that much, stop f**king moaning and use someone else in your country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinJI Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Dave, in that thread you linked to you're acting like, and coming across as a rational, knowledgeable and quite sensible person, why all the crazy in this thread? My experience of engineers is basically that if you think they're all arrogant/pricks, you're working in/dealing with the wrong side of engineering, or you've got unlucky, but unfortunately the balance does seem to be going the wrong way recently. I've experienced both sides of it, and I've deliberately avoided the traditional route for my career, because yes, there are arrogant pricks who think they know everything out there*. But if you find the right companies and industries then everyone's not like that, not everyone's a willy, some of us** are doing it because they enjoy problem solving, and love learning, and it's an industry that allows you to continue to do both of those things right up until your retirement if you keep the right mindset. But all too many people seem to think that once they've got a foothold they must know everything and be god of all things, and forget that they need to keep learning, or they might as well just be a factory working pressing the same button again and again. Personally I don't like the way modern engineering works, but this is all getting hugely off-topic, in a thread, that is in actual fact about a leaky waterbottle! *(And personally, in the nicest way possible I'd say a tool maker looking down his nose at people with a CAD degree is going some way to making a case for themselves falling into that category, but I'll reserve judgement and let that ignorant and generalising comment slide, because I'd like to think that some things are just innocent mistakes, and I don't know you at all, so I'm not really in a position to judge you.) **(I say us because I would consider myself part of the engineering profession/industry, despite having a 'mathematical science' degree rather than an engineering degree, thanks to the route I took to get to my final year.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 this reminds me of my first trials bike. it was a Pashley 26mhz. I cracked it on the drive side chainstay after about 8 months (mainly due to getting savage chain suck). I took it up with Pashley as I was young and un-aware that frames could break. Pashley refused to warrenty it because the chain suck I had weaked the frame. I was not happy and ended up being pretty rude and arrogant. Eventually they sold me a new frame for half price. To this day I am ashamed in how I acted. Things break, and unless it's something clearly not right from when I first open the box, I just deal with it. The bearings in my bb right now are worn out after 3 months. I don't see it as a big deal. I'm not going to be asking for more. It's such a shame that you think the way you do Dave. Perhaps the best answer would be for you to make your own products that I'm sure would be perfect in every way or to start up your own shop so you can deal with customers only the way you can. So your saying I misused my hub? Lol you seen the hub in Bristol the day it broke. And I think you even said that don't sound right The hub broke the 2 bearings it came with in about a week Then the next set in a matter of hours I have made my own hub thanks an yes it's lasted about 100 times longer already, there is a pic of it in one guys radfest pics if you want to see! I'm looking down at any one, but some times people are out of there league. Also it's axial run out not radial run out we are looking at here Did I mention I work for one of the largest bearing manufactures in the world? You can find them in hope hubs, life span in a hope hub is about 5 years, same bearings I used. 61900 not 6900 I still can't believe every ones happy for tarty Adam to lie about what his responsibility is when it comes to warranty ?????? And I'm sure if it was him who bought a substandard product from a shop he would expect a replacement... I wonder why they stopping selling the speedrace hub ?? Dave if you're such an amazing engineer why the f**k didn't you just fix this yourself? Not a problem, who's paying the labour ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skoze Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 If you really are the shit, 5 minutes after hours won't cost much will it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 So your saying I misused my hub? narr, just saying it reminded of that situation. Adam does his best to help people out, unfortunately sometimes when you do nice things they get thrown back in your face. I don't know the full situation with the hub other than what I have read and I know Adam doesn't lie so I am happy to believe what he has wrote to be the truth in which case I find it hard to understand what you are unhappy about? I also can't believe you are still bitter about the bb, did you take up the steel axle option (I didn't even know you had been offered that)? The thing is, no matter if the bb was fitted incorrectly or not (though I'm still sure you said the bb spacers were fitted) if you're ilding super light parts on to a bike then you're going to have to accept they have a shorter lifespan. Things break, if they do then get something stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinJI Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 So you're complaining that Adam did not deal with the technical side of the warranty claim directly, but referred it to the manufacturer, but you're also claiming that when he does what you want, and deals with it himself he's not an expert and he supposedly doesn't know what he's talking about with the technical side of it? Both sides of that can't be right, it doesn't work, either you're effectively saying that every retailer should employ a fully trained engineer for warranty assessment purposes, or you seem to have double standards. At no point have I seen Adam claim that the responsibility of replacing the part is not his, he has simply used the manufacturer as a more qualified judge of the parts suitability for warranty replacement. It is very normal, and common practice for a retailer to converse with, and take advice from the manufacturer of a product during a warranty issue, as long as they're not insisting that you to go directly to the manufacturer then they're doing nothing wrong, after all, the manufacturer will know a lot more about the product than the retailer ever will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 narr, just saying it reminded of that situation. Adam does his best to help people out, unfortunately sometimes when you do nice things they get thrown back in your face. I don't know the full situation with the hub other than what I have read and I know Adam doesn't lie so I am happy to believe what he has wrote to be the truth in which case I find it hard to understand what you are unhappy about? I also can't believe you are still bitter about the bb, did you take up the steel axle option (I didn't even know you had been offered that)? The thing is, no matter if the bb was fitted incorrectly or not (though I'm still sure you said the bb spacers were fitted) if you're ilding super light parts on to a bike then you're going to have to accept they have a shorter lifespan. Things break, if they do then get something stronger. like i said already, either hes lied about tarty not being liable for any warranty claim made, he says its the manufacture, law states other wise ie tartybikes. only he can answer that.. im waiting ? no i didnt take the steel one, why should i? i paid for the ti one which broke within the 3 months, so i have the right to a replacement or a refund..-uk law... also youv said in the past that you think, again not going over this again.. after you found out i didnt not use any spacers adam never told reset that, but did tell them i did, with no proof. also yes of corse hes going to be helpful if it means he can avoid the loss of replacing the faulty goods.. So you're complaining that Adam did not deal with the technical side of the warranty claim directly, but referred it to the manufacturer, but you're also claiming that when he does what you want, and deals with it himself he's not an expert and he supposedly doesn't know what he's talking about with the technical side of it? Both sides of that can't be right, it doesn't work, either you're effectively saying that every retailer should employ a fully trained engineer for warranty assessment purposes, or you seem to have double standards. At no point have I seen Adam claim that the responsibility of replacing the part is not his, he has simply used the manufacturer as a more qualified judge of the parts suitability for warranty replacement. It is very normal, and common practice for a retailer to converse with, and take advice from the manufacturer of a product during a warranty issue, as long as they're not insisting that you to go directly to the manufacturer then they're doing nothing wrong, after all, the manufacturer will know a lot more about the product than the retailer ever will. i was told i would have to take the matter up with reset, which i did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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