The Car Thread

[Pashley26]

Yeah you would want to add fuel into those costs too. But off the bat it's clear to see that it is cheaper to buy three cars in 9 years than it is tk buy one car and keep it for 9 years.

It doesn't have to be the prices I'm branding about, I can sell a Fiat 500 for £109 a month with a £500 deposit.

Over 36 months that's only £4424, for a brand new car, no maintenance, nothing other than fuel, insurance and a £200 service in two years.

Compare that to the cost of your MX5 Mike; the money you spend on maintaining it, the higher insurance and the fuel saving from a new car. It would be cheaper for you to buy and run a brand new car than it would be to buy and run your £1000 MX5.

I know you don't "want" a brand new Fiat 500, but it's easy to see why people would do it.

If you aren't into cars and have an older car it's a no brainer.

[AdamR28]

What if you buy a 6 month old car, use it for 2.5 years then sell it before the warranty is out / MOT is required, then sell that and buy another of the same age (and repeat)? My main interest in this is whether it's better to buy or lease cars, not whether its better to lease 3 cars in 9 years than buy one car and keep it for 9 years (cos nobody in their right mind does that).

i would disagree about the MX-5 comment btw, but I can see how your 'argument' does hold weight for other vehicles.

To add some balance, my road MX-5 in 2 years has cost me under £2000 including: buying the car (real cash money and everything!), 2 MOTs, 2 years of insurance, a new exhaust, 2 tax discs and routine servicing / maintenance. And I still have car that's worth minimum £6-700 in it's current state, or £4-500 if it fails an MOT spectacularly. Ok, it's not great on fuel, but all these new cars don't make anywhere near the MPG figures they claim. I can also park it anywhere I like without worrying about someone dinging it, and it goes sideways, and it's not a shitty FIAT. Lol.

[MadManMike]

Basically, what he said ^

I'm choosing to spend quite a bit doing mine up, but if I just wanted it to drive to work in, it would cost me pennies to keep it going. Biggest cost seems to be fuel to be honest, mine seems to drink shitloads of it!

[AdamR28]

Get it on the rollers Mike, might cost you £50 but could easily save you 10% on fuel bills if you get someone who knows what they are doing! Timing adjustments and AFM clock spring tweaks make the world of difference. Standard they are pretty sub-optimal since they are designed to be safe on 91 RON fuel.

[Azarathal]

Basically, what he said ^

I'm choosing to spend quite a bit doing mine up, but if I just wanted it to drive to work in, it would cost me pennies to keep it going. Biggest cost seems to be fuel to be honest, mine seems to drink shitloads of it!

Try 220miles average out of a 55L tank

[MadManMike]

Try 220miles average out of a 55L tank

Yes, but I'm assuming yours isn't a 1.6 with a BHP figure of 116 when it left the factory 22 years ago...

Shocking fuel economy for what it is - the only thing I dislike about the car to be honest.

Adam - yeah I need to do the 14 degree timing mod and get it looked at really, I'm sure there's a few tweaks that can be done for a few quid. Don't suppose you know anyone down my way that's good with MX's do you?

[AdamR28]

Nearest I know of would be Autolink but they are still 2 hours away and dunno if they have a dyno...

[Danny]

What if you buy a 6 month old car, use it for 2.5 years then sell it before the warranty is out / MOT is required, then sell that and buy another of the same age (and repeat)? My main interest in this is whether it's better to buy or lease cars, not whether its better to lease 3 cars in 9 years than buy one car and keep it for 9 years (cos nobody in their right mind does that).

Thats the numbers id like to see. My focus is now 7 years old but it still worth ~£7.5k but would happily swap it for something newer if the numbers made sense.

What would the finance deal be like if i wanted a 1-3 year old £15k car and had £7.5k deposit?

A friend of mine has a brand new focus st and pays ~£450 a month on finance which seems crazy.

[N.Wood]

And Jardo has a new daily.

What sort of person are they marketing these at?

I can think of one person it would be good for - Old people (especially women) who live in rural areas and might need the 4x4. But you can have all the diff locks and electronic tricks in the world, but tyres will let you down even on a muddy flat field. Unless they fit decent offroad tyres, in which case why not buy a Suzuki Jimny or similar?

[Pashley26]

All the video's I posted are on the standard tires, which are Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons.

Which are a hugely popular tire and very well reviewed.

Maybe we don't 'get it' because we're British, but if you've ever been to the Alps, or any continental mountainous range for that matter you'll know that 4x4 Panda's are all the rage and are by far and away the most popular mode of four wheel transport.

If we're going to have a discussion about the Panda Cross it's very difficult for me to argue it, because I read the things you say and they just annoy me because you guys can't see from my point of view. I know why you can't see what I see in it, because it isn't fast, it doesn't go round corners very well, it's looks are ugly if a bit charming, it isn't a big manly 4x4, it costs £17,000 if you actually want to buy one, it doesn't really do anything that anybody on here would appreciate.

So have a read of some reviews, and see what you think. If anybody is generally interested.

http://www.greenmotor.co.uk/2014/10/fiat-panda-cross-twinair-review.html

The above website is known nationally for giving tremendously bad reviews and upsetting manufacturers.

And the previous Panda cross has an incredibly well established fan base and is a firm favourite for people who want a refined, cheap car which is capable off road and don't want a tractor like and antiquated Suzuki or Landrover.

I didn't expect the TF crowd to really get the Cross, and I was totally expecting some stick for the way it looks. But I was hoping at least a couple of people would look at it and realise it really is a car in a class of it's own, that it created on it's own.

So to put yourselves in my scenario...

I've got an S3, which is stripped out with buckets in it, has cruise control, returns a half decent MPG on a run but is a pain in the arse around town, I'm frightened to take it down country lanes, my family refuse to go out in it, and I've really focused it for something I'm going to do 4/5 times a year. Track days. Because it has cruise it is absolutely perfect when I think, f**k it I'm going to see my mates in Plymouth and blat down the '303 for the weekend, it's really good to drive on the road. But expensive. 25mpg is a reasonable average, which compared to a 110bhp MX5 is pretty good for what you get

My girlfriend is a multimillionaire who's parents hate me and detest my chav-tastic car and laddish lifestyle, I'm incredibly keen for things to go well with her because she's been on the radar for a long time. So having a two seater 120Db track car as my only form of transport is going to put a large restraint on our lifestyle and make them think that I'm irresponsible and uninterested in family matters. And I can't expect to use her car for everything. She also wants to move down to the sea but know's that I won't leave my job because I earn a f**k load of money with very little effort.

She drives a new convertible Beetle, which also isn't very practical. So 90% of the things she hates about my car, are equal in impracticality and gayness for her car. It does have SEX in the number plate though.

Her parents own a house in incredibly north Wales, which has a 1 mile stone and mud private road going to it, Panda Cross will be perfect for that and will make cheap weekends away possible. While the door is open, we haven't been there because none of our cars will make the 1 mile driveway and we don't want to be walking that every day and parking our car on the public road a mile away.

We both like to cycle and walk a lot. Panda Cross will take all of our bikes and equipment, apparel for walking etc etc etc and has incredibly tough mud and waterproof seat covers so we don't need to worry about trashing it.

I run a lot. And on my morning run I drive out 3 miles into the country and do a nice loop through the forest and fields. Waking my neighbour up at 6AM every morning starting up 'rolling thunder' as he calls it is less than ideal. Panda Cross is unnoticeable and will allow me to quite happily park it in a muddy grass field and not worry about getting stuck.

I finish work at 9PM+ a few days a week, not having a noisy, flame spitting car pulling onto the drive every other night will make the neighbour happy. The same when I go to and from the gym on the other nights I'm not working late...

Panda Cross is a 1.3 diesel, it does 55MPG+ easily. Compared to the 25MPG I would get from the S3 driving it approx 80 miles a day to work and back if we move to the sea. (I've already done that for 4 months in the S3, it was financially crippling.) Double the MPG means half the costs, and it means that we can move to where we really want to.

The S3 being driven daily causes extra wear and tear on the car, because the brakes are always in an abrasive state, the clutch is getting used lots in stop start traffic etc etc. The Panda Cross doesn't need any maintenance, ever. Because I'll put it on my used car forecourt in 6 months and buy another one for me to run as a company car.

Panda Cross has 4 doors and IsoFix seat points. So I can take my niece out again and get my family in the back. Great.

My dad lives in the middle of nowhere. Panda Cross will be fantastic this winter when it floods (it always does) and I can still get to see him.

And it costs me £38 a month.

Thirty.

Eight.

Pounds.

A month.

Why wouldn't I drive that incredibly lifestyle friendly and practical car instead of my S3? It'll save me hundreds a month. And on top of that, I really do buy into the lifestyle and go anywhere ability of it. Hell, I'd actually buy one if I didn't have the S3. I think it's great.

Hopefully that explains why I'm excited about the Panda Cross, because it's going to enhance my lifestyle massively and take every single piece of annoyance that owning the S3 causes to my life and turn it round the other way.

And I know that those lifestyle enhancements that I'm going to get from having an impractical car that I make the most of will also appeal to other customers and people who are interested in the car.

And I like the quirky looks.

[Tom Booth]

You really really don't have to defend/justify it Jardo. I think it looks shit, it's a fiat so it's hardly going to be a good car, but if your happy with it then good for you.

In fiat related news, we have a new lwb vauxhall combo at work which is a rebadged doblo. Rear anti roll bar link snapped today! It's been on the road a year and it's snapped a rear link! Biggest pile of shit ever that van is.

[dann2707]

Jardo in shocker my car is the best car EVVVAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR post.

[Mark W]

I earn a f**k load of money with very little effort.

I finish work at 9PM+ a few days a week...

Does not compute Is this the same job that you were doing when you basically had to have an intervention?

[Tony Harrison]

I guess it depends how you define 'f**k load'.

[Pashley26]

Jardo in shocker my car is the best car EVVVAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRR post.

You're mistaking 'my car' to mean 'a normal non stripped out ear explodingly loud car' for 99% of that. Apart from a drive up to Wales and being able to piss myself whilst I'm in it and then just anti-bac the seats clean it really isn't any better than a 5 door Ford Fiesta.

Unless you buy into the styling and 'what it is', which I do.

But I'm a Fiat Salesboss, I'm going to like it. That's why I work for Fiat, because I like them.

[Mark W]

In fairness I imagine Jardo's not doing badly, but it was more the "very little effort" bit I'd challenge the definition of

Out of interest, have you developed your feelings for Fiats since you started working there, or was this something from before?

[GavLawson]

I know quite a few people who have taken their car back to the dealer at the end of the agreement and been charged fairly significant amounts for excessive wear.

I also know a few people who have purchased the car at the end of the agreement which seems like a very expensive way to buy a new car.

Personally PCP is not for me, but I can see the appeal of owning a fiat panda 4x4 and they are incredibly popular in european ski resort car parks.

[Pashley26]

I always like the Panda 100hp and the older Fiat's of the 70's and early 80's. But I never really cared about the newer cars.

Started working for Fiat, and immediately I just seemed to fit in. My obsessive nature had me learning absolutely everything about the options, the codes, the engine spec's etc of the ranges, and the individuality of the cars that you can create really sits well with my personality. As a brand they're really looking after me, I've been to Sweden on holiday all expenses paid for a week, I've been to Munich on an all inclusive holiday for a week, I've been to Italy twice for about three days for launches and training, I'm going to Amalfi in Feb' as another incentive reward. And my company have kind of just gone 'umm, just let him do his thing because I don't think we can get anybody to do it better.' so I've become totally self managed, in charge of the entire brand, the stock ordering etc etc and now I've got a guy working for me to help hit the number, which isn't blowing my own trumpet at all, because I'm not a good car salesman/manager who could just walk into any dealership and set the place alight. But for what's happening right now, and pushing forward a brand that's shaking off a decade long stigma it's all fallen into place.

I also enjoy that they're a happy brand. Nobody buys most of the Fiat range because it's cheap (because they aren't!), they buy one because they want one. So as long as you do your job properly and look after the customer everybody is really excited about the product, and they're quite an aspirational brand so people generally want to own them.

-

Ref PCP and being charged at the end, that's because of one of two things.

They've either been mis-sold by a bad salesman and have gone way over their mileage.

Or they've been negligent and damaged the car.

One of the clauses of a PCP agreement is something called GMFV, which means Guaranteed Minimum Future Value. That is an agreement between the finance company, and the purchaser which says that at the end of the agreement the minimum value that the finance company will give for the car is that final payment. Giving you the option to give the car back at no cost to you.

Assuming; the car is in a state of fair wear and tear.

Assuming; the car is within the agreed pro-rata mileage limitations which the customer would have set out.

I know a lot about this, because Fiat have the highest customer retention and finance renewal rate of any manufacturer in the world. (53% renewal in 3 years).

They also have a product range which devalues equally to a bucket of warm shit. So where we have things like recently the Bravo being discontinued, it means that the trade in values of Bravo's are waaaaaay below the GMFV because of the crash in the market because you can't buy them any more.

So I've currently got about 10 customers on the go who owe £4500 on cars that are worth £2500. But the finance company have guaranteed to give them £4500 at the end of the agreement, so they have been protected from a financial loss.

So it works both ways, it's a protection as well as a possibility to cost you more.

You have to ask yourself, how much less would your friends cars be worth if they were trying to sell them privately with scuffs on the bumpers, dents in the door, incomplete service history or 10,000 miles more than they actually had?

Or if you just mean that they've had to put in loads of money to get the same monthly payment, that's their own fault and partially the fault of the salesman.

Every customer that I do a PCP quote for I beg them to take it with a higher monthly payment and a 10% deposit if they want to put in something mad like a 40% deposit.

If you put in a £4000 deposit a the start, you've got to get £4000 of equity at the end to keep the same payment. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a £12,000 car won't be worth £8500 in three years time.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Pashley26

[Jolfa]

it really is a car in a class of it's own, that it created on it's own.

Whut? How is it different in class to a Jimny/Vitara/Rav 4/new Mini 4x4 thing/Mokka/SX4/Kuga/Yeti etc etc..? Most of which even look pretty similar...

As for finance options, slice it however you want but it's still dead money, you could buy a car that will do everything you need it to for sod all then sell it at the end for a profit. You usually do.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Jolfa

[Pashley26]

Because they don't make any of the car's you just mentioned any more in the same way they did when they started. They're all massive now. The Panda is the same weight, the same size and almost the same price.

Jimny isn't made any more for the UK market and can't be sold here because it doesn't have ESP and tire pressure monitoring.

Vitara is the size of a house and 10K more and only 2WD.

Rav 4 is massive and 10K more. £26,000 for a base spec Rav 4 AWD http://www.toyota.co.uk/new-cars/rav4-specs-prices

New Mini is £20,000 base price and is the same size as a 500L. By the time you add climate, bluetooth, all the things the £16,000 Panda has as standard it's 25K+. http://www.mini.co.uk/model-range/countryman/mini-cooper-all4/

Mokka is as big as a Discovery used to be, because to get it 4WD you need an Antara rather than a Mokka at 23.5K+. http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vehicles/vauxhall-range/cars/antara/overview.html?ppc=uk_Vauxhall+Range_Mid+Funnel_PPC_AWA_2012_08_Vauxhall_GB_4x4+%5BB%5D_4x4_Broad

The SX4 is a Fiat Sedici 4x4 underneath It's £16,000 and built on a 12 year old car. They're absolute shit. Go drive one, try not to hang yourself to save you from it mid-testdrive.

The Yeti is much larger and more expensive than the Panda and it's the only real rival. Almost certain it isn't available as a 4x4 anymore. http://www.skoda.co.uk/models/yeti-outdoor/overview/Pages/default.aspx?gclid=CKS-hY2GmcICFbMatAod40YAOw

Don't forget if you didn't want the all out off road Panda like the Cross with the adaptive suspension, steel skid plates, hill decent, raised intakes et etc etc you could have a normal 4x4 for £14,000...

Edited November 26, 2014 by Pashley26

[Mark W]

As that post reminded me of it, I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that everyone involved with the new names for vehicles at Vauxhall needs to be kicked in the dick/tits (delete where applicable). The Vauxhall Adam was bad enough, but "Mokka"? f**k. Off.

[Pashley26]

As that post reminded me of it, I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that everyone involved with the new names for vehicles at Vauxhall needs to be kicked in the dick/tits (delete where applicable). The Vauxhall Adam was bad enough, but "Mokka"? f**k. Off.

Don't worry, they've fired him.

You'll notice they've also stopped sponsoring Football and are reducing 5 year 0% offers to stop attracting scumbags. His words not mine...

[bing]

Bought a new telly. One of these smart TV jobs. One amazing feature that gives me a semi is that when you pick a video on YouTube off the ipad, it auto plays it on the big tv. Cue loads of mental Polish hillclimb videos. Here's a still of some bloke in an m3 getting bit wrong

And here's the link to the vid. Anybody you know alex (greetings)?

http://youtu.be/bqgRu8uqoTU

Edited November 26, 2014 by bing

[SamKidney]

Bloke in the Red Astra and the FN2 Type R! Mad skilz

Quattro and the Delta Integrale are definitely the two sweetest cars in there.

[bing]

That bloke in the Astra is properly trying ain't he!!!! That flat out left hand corner looks scary. Not much room for error