Greetings Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 After 5 years I think I've finally figured out why some wheels will tend to shift to one side under heavy torque. Basically looking for confirmation here and a reason why these kind of wheel builds are common in trials (Inspired have them for instance). This is my current build which shifts to the drive side under torque: I figure this happens because the non-drive side flange trailing spokes run on the inside, while the drive side flange trailing spokes run on the outside. So when torque is applied, the axis of the rim shifts towards the side both spokes are sticking out of. If one had both trailing spokes on the outside of the hub then presumably this wouldn't happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Try building it properly and see if it still happens 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greetings Posted May 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Yes, it still happens and has done on lightweight builds for as long as I've been riding a stock bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamR28 Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Hmm, I wouldn't have thought that would make a difference really. Probably more down to how much torque the hub shell itself transmits - if not much, the drive side tension will increase in relation to the non drive, pulling the wheel across. If the shell is stiff, it will transfer the torque through into the non drive spokes too, and tension increases in both sides at a more equal rate, and wheel stays central? And the frame and hub axle/mounting system will make a difference too, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greetings Posted May 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 And the frame and hub axle/mounting system will make a difference too, of course. Could be something to do with the hub, this King is the only one I've used on a stock bike. As for the 2nd point I've heard that and I'm sure there's a lot of sense in it. But in that case the wheel would shift towards the left wouldn't it? Due to the right chainstay becoming slightly shorter. I guess the only way to be completely sure it to build a wheel with the spokes the other way round and see if it shifts to the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narrowbars Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Have you check the following? Is the wheel out of dish? If so you could be putting the wheel in straight by eye using the horizontal dropouts, then when you put some power through the wheel it shifts in the dropout so the hub sits straight and the out of dish wheels causes it to be of to the side? Is the frame straight, just because it's new / not that old doesn't mean it'll be straight. Judging by the quality of most trials frames this wouldn't surprise me. Are the brake mounts welded on straight / square? Would be worth trying a different wheel and see if the same issues arise, this will help to identify the issue. Edited May 9, 2012 by narrowbars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 I believe it has more to do with the length of the spokes on each side. I am also a creationist, I believe man created God. Just thought I would throw that in there for some background interference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greetings Posted May 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) Would be worth trying a different wheel and see if the same issues arise, this will help to identify the issue. Believe it or not but that's not the only wheel and frame I've had in the last 5 years My main point is that if the wheel is held in centre entirely by spokes which lose tension under torque then the rim will shift. Loosen all the leading spokes and the wheel is not going to be dished anymore. Edited May 10, 2012 by Greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Vandart Posted May 10, 2012 Report Share Posted May 10, 2012 nail on the head maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 ...If one had both trailing spokes on the outside of the hub then presumably this wouldn't happen? exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamKidney Posted May 12, 2012 Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 Is it really that much of an issue though? The only time I've ever noticed is when I'm really going for something and my spokes are a tad loose. Tighten em all up, never happens enough for the pads to rub Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skorp Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 All the wheels i have is laced the same way, i guess it isnt possible to lace it the way you want. You would need two different length on the spokes atleast. I think there might be true what your saying, but i think there will be very little diffrences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greetings Posted May 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) All the wheels i have is laced the same way, i guess it isnt possible to lace it the way you want. You would need two different length on the spokes atleast. No need for different spoke lengths. It's by all means possible, done it many many times. I'm self taught when it comes to wheel builds, must have done about 300 as of today and I just absorbed Sheldon Brown's guide at the start and have been doing everything according to that since. However, there is no mention in that guide about 4 groups of spokes rather than 2. Despite this for a reason I cannot explain, I always end up with this 4 group build on my own bike and the problem mentioned in the 1st post. Don't really want to change it now because the wheel is an absolute pig to get straight due to the zero-stiffness rim. I can understand the need for 4 groups on rear disc brake wheels but why on ones which use a rim brake? edit: actually I can't understand that either, in trials the braking force is reversed. Edited May 13, 2012 by Greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FamilyBiker Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 ´ts all about symmetry.believe me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skorp Posted May 13, 2012 Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 No need for different spoke lengths. It's by all means possible, done it many many times. I'm self taught when it comes to wheel builds, must have done about 300 as of today and I just absorbed Sheldon Brown's guide at the start and have been doing everything according to that since. However, there is no mention in that guide about 4 groups of spokes rather than 2. Despite this for a reason I cannot explain, I always end up with this 4 group build on my own bike and the problem mentioned in the 1st post. Don't really want to change it now because the wheel is an absolute pig to get straight due to the zero-stiffness rim. I can understand the need for 4 groups on rear disc brake wheels but why on ones which use a rim brake? edit: actually I can't understand that either, in trials the braking force is reversed. What do you mean by 4 groups and 2 groups? The hope wheel is laced by me, and the TR wheel by Echo.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greetings Posted May 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 Group 1: trailing spokes on inside of flange Group 2: trailing spokes on outside of flange Group 3: leading spokes on inside of flange Group 4 leading spokes on outside of flange As opposed to just having trailing on outside and leading on inside. I wonder why none of the professional wheel builders on this forum have anything to say about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave33 Posted May 14, 2012 Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 You could try lacing the crossing spokes the other way to see if it moves in a different direction, people build them using 2 groups just because it's easy to drop them in from the same side. The thing your missing is that every thing with flex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skorp Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Just got this from tartybikes... This is what you mean right? sorry for bad pic.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinJI Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 I'd always lace a non-disc wheel like the king shown above, so all the spokes that will be taking the drive torque are on the outside of the flange. I tend to lace disc wheels like your first picture is with the spokes taking the drive torque on the drive side of both flanges. I can't say I've ever noticed much difference in the finished product, that's just the way I was taught how to do it. Thinking about it though, it does make more sense to lace them with driven on the outside both sides even with a disc wheel (or even with driven on the inside both sides), like you say, it should help keep things central under forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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