Trials And Lifting

[ghostrider88]

eh? your statement about core muscles was about how they are not 50 front 50 back - "3/4 abs and 1/4" back i seem to remember? a statement even azatharal questioned you on? your pictures showed abdominal muscles....didnt proove anything, your replies have also not logically prooven anything ive said wrong?

my googled website (not my words) did however thwart your comment about the core

genuinely, you sound like the medical student you often come across who everyone hates...very early in your studies, recieved a few lectures, read a few books and walks around as if they are the epitomy of knowledge.

by your theory of close to maximum weight training - this guy should be a beast with regards to his fast twitch fibres? isnt really the case though...

to anyone reading the thread, ignore this guy and pay attention to trialsishard

Since when BB trains with weights close to 1RM? :lol: They train with weights around 75-80% of 1RM for good 8-10reps and very controled technique which is completely different from what I´ve stated before(as I stated either 1-2reps with weight close to 100% 1MR or 3-4 reps with 50-60% 1RM and dynamic execution of exercise).Your so called knowledge might work for someone who doesn´t know anything about human body nor training,not me You are getting lamer and lamer with every post.When I said that core muscles are not 1:1 abs:back I was right(again) and I proved that to you by naming 6abdominal muscles vs 1 back muscle,is that 1:1 ratio as you stated? :lol: You´re one hella good clown man,that´s sure thing.I expect you to come and state something completely wrong again and I will prove you wrong again.

[chris4stars]

(1)Since when BB trains with weights close to 1RM? :lol: They train with weights around 75-80% of 1RM for good 8-10reps and very controled technique which is completely different from what I´ve stated before(as I stated either 1-2reps with weight close to 100% 1MR or 3-4 reps with 50-60% 1RM and dynamic execution of exercise).Your so called knowledge might work for someone who doesn´t know anything about human body nor training,not me You are getting lamer and lamer with every post.When I said that core muscles are not 1:1 abs:back I was right(again) and I proved that to you by naming 6abdominal muscles vs 1 back muscle,is that 1:1 ratio as you stated? :lol: You´re one hella good clown man,that´s sure thing.I expect you to come and state something completely wrong again and I will prove you wrong again.

1. really? thats my mate just there...ive partnered him in a number of sessions and spoken at length about his training. i think i have an idea of what he gets up to?

well done in naming the 6 abdominal muscles.... let me refer you again to this link that answers 'what are the core muscles' (to save you looking, abs count for 3 of the 8 mentioned)

before that let me remind you...to quote you again, "Core is 3/4 abs and maybe 1/4 back"

and my response refering to the relative postion of muscle on the body (not what the muscle is) 50% front 50% back. im not refering to the number of seperate muscle groups, im talking about relative importance/muscle mass and strength.

My link

either way, my point was refering to what the general core is...importance is 50/50, training should be 50/50 and naming the minor supporting abdominal muscles counts for very little when the conversation is talking about the main muscle groups to focus on training.

in legs, when we talk of quads - do we talk about them as four seperate muscles? no, when training we refer to them as one group. we never say that the leg strength is composed of 4/7 quad. 3/7 hamstring. in training we talk about muscles in groups (like the website)

Edited December 12, 2011 by chris4stars

[Laurence--Trials]

What does protean do to your muscles then? Repair them faster, repair them and grows back even more than if you didn't eat protean or both?

[monkeyseemonkeydo]

What does protean do to your muscles then? Repair them faster, repair them and grows back even more than if you didn't eat protean or both?

My link

[ghostrider88]

What does protean do to your muscles then? Repair them faster, repair them and grows back even more than if you didn't eat protean or both?

you need two things to make muscles grow,proteins and calories...If your caloric intake/output is balanced,you won´t grow.protein might help you with faster recovery after training if you don´t eat enough proteins in whole food though.

[Laurence--Trials]

you need two things to make muscles grow,proteins and calories...If your caloric intake/output is balanced,you won´t grow.protein might help you with faster recovery after training if you don´t eat enough proteins in whole food though.

awesome, thanks

[ghostrider88]

awesome, thanks

you´re welcome.

[Andeee]

Deadlifts increase pigeon techniques So it allows you to pigeon bigger things...

So far my Max i've deadlifted 130kg 5x

[dave33]

you say that you hang out with all these pros and so on, only problem i can see is that the trining that these guy are doing isnt really some thing that you can simply switch over to trials, i think trials is so under developed that its hard to say what works best, who really knows what the top guys do, and what maybe works weel for them etc..

perhaps its just luck that damon and tra are crazy strong and also crazy good at trials?

i have often wonderd how much of trials skill is natural talent or training, or even the company of riders they train with.

i am personaly really interested in the different trainning types, and have been training on and off in the gym for about 3 years, personaly upon my first year of gym work i built up a fair amount of extra mass, around 8-10 kgs, yes i was pretty strong for my build already due to trials even after i got much stronger i didnt really notice a big difference to my static moves, basicaly canceling the extra strength-weight.

now i ride more and less gym and with improved technique my riding has improved.

but as i was saying, maybe different training helps different people. the gym trainers were fairly shocked when i did a vertical jump test and found that im only just above average.

so i think my next goal will be to try and improve that, so im interested to see what kid of excersises will help that and my riding.

1. really? thats my mate just there...ive partnered him in a number of sessions and spoken at length about his training. i think i have an idea of what he gets up to?

well done in naming the 6 abdominal muscles.... let me refer you again to this link that answers 'what are the core muscles' (to save you looking, abs count for 3 of the 8 mentioned)

before that let me remind you...to quote you again, "Core is 3/4 abs and maybe 1/4 back"

and my response refering to the relative postion of muscle on the body (not what the muscle is) 50% front 50% back. im not refering to the number of seperate muscle groups, im talking about relative importance/muscle mass and strength.

My link

either way, my point was refering to what the general core is...importance is 50/50, training should be 50/50 and naming the minor supporting abdominal muscles counts for very little when the conversation is talking about the main muscle groups to focus on training.

in legs, when we talk of quads - do we talk about them as four seperate muscles? no, when training we refer to them as one group. we never say that the leg strength is composed of 4/7 quad. 3/7 hamstring. in training we talk about muscles in groups (like the website)

[chris4stars]

snip

...the big guy in the pic was merely to proove a point that the building muscle - lower rep / high weight training doesnt necessarily lead to faster/explosive muscles

didnt ever claim that what they do helps trials riders, only that all of the extensive knowledge these guys have does help me have an idea of how to train...for most of us, its your basic gym training training that would be beneficial in the early stages - good upper body strength is certainly going to be more beneficial to being weaker, and doesnt necessarily need to lead to massive muscle gain (climbers stand out in my experience for being insanely strong in a very small frame)

when you can physically hold your own (so to speak), to take it to the next level, i highly suspect that focusing on explosive strength would proove most beneficial

i completely agree about trials being under developed ....in the top levels, not enough people take part for there to be a need to stand out amazingly in a physical way. in other more popular 'skilled' sports, its that physical edge that can often set you apart from the rest

trials is obviously a massively technical and skilled sport...no denying that. massive amounts of natural talent is needed. the gains in your sidehop height (for example) will improve alot quicker initially with improving your skill than they will improving your strength.

as your level of skill gets close to peaking, (say, like 95% or so of your potential - the sidehop is technically fantastic)...the extra 1% or 2% in skill level will only up your sidehop heights by very little and will take alot longer to achieve - the only way to gain signifigant amounts again more would be to increase the power in the move....ie, increase strength (in the right way)

like yourself, i am very curious to see quite what turns out to be the optimum physique for trials...would be very interested to see how your static moves improve if say you added 10 - 20% onto your vertical jump height...if you do decide, please keep us posted!

there will technically be a way to work this all out mathematically...

would first need to know how much the pedal kick(turn of the wheel) contributes to the distance/height of whatever move...and then how much the upwards/sideways jump of the rider contributes...this slow motion video of ryan leech demonstrates both rather nicely i think:

to get the wheel accelerate to as fast a speed as possible, every person would have thier own individual optimum gear ratio and crank arm length depending on how much power they can generate, and how quickly they can apply it (you want a bruce lee 1 inch punch, but in your leg if you get me?!)

there would then be an opitimum balance between your level of strength, and how easy it is to lug around an 8 - 12kg bike...upper body wise, after a certain level of strength, the level of ease to throw it around wont increase much, and the gain in mass of muscle will become counter productive

Edited December 15, 2011 by chris4stars

[Laurence--Trials]

When you bend over for a long time and your back starts to ache why is that? I assume its not the same as workout ache?

[Azarathal]

Nah its just an ache, if you back hurts from trials get a higher stem.

[Laurence--Trials]

Nah, my back is fine from trials just wondering what the ache was for example when your working on your bike.

[seaine]

Hi,

I am no expert on this at all but i have been a professional rugby player in france and belgium for the last 5 years.

I have had gym plan for all that time and stay away from weights,the best thing you can lift is your own body weight for trials i think anyway.if you want to strenghting up pull ups,dips,raised press ups that kinda stuff

I honestly think the best move for trials is the brupees,it seems to incorporate all the moves of trials (crouching down and an expolsive upward movement) when it gets easier because your getting used to your own weight,try and add on a weight vest.here is some other versions to try

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burpee_%28exercise%29

I am a 110kg and play number 8 and my size really does hinder me riding trials and it was all because of weight

Edited December 16, 2011 by seaine

[dave33]

Hi,

I am no expert on this at all but i have been a professional rugby player in france and belgium for the last 5 years.

I have had gym plan for all that time and stay away from weights,the best thing you can lift is your own body weight for trials i think anyway.if you want to strenghting up pull ups,dips,raised press ups that kinda stuff

I honestly think the best move for trials is the brupees,it seems to incorporate all the moves of trials (crouching down and an expolsive upward movement) when it gets easier because your getting used to your own weight,try and add on a weight vest.

I am a 110kg and play number 8 and my size really does hinder me riding trials and it was all because of weight

I didn't find the burpees to help that much, I was doing it as part of circuit training for a year but never did get to try a weighted vest,

I basically looked at Gilles when at ucis and noted where he seems to have muscle and not,

For some one of his build he's got small biceps but rather big triceps, especially his inner tris

He's got big legs an a massive arse

Also traps and delts are very toned

For me the biggest gain was triceps and standing vertical jumps onto a 36 inch platform

Chris I'm really open minded to try out some of ur ideas, as I think my technique is pretty good, not as good as it could but getting there!

Really want to increase my explosive power!

[xTommyTickles92]

I train 5 days a week

Day 1: Shoulders (Delts)

Day 2: Arms (Biceps, Triceps)

Day 3: Legs (Quads, Hamstrings)

Day 4: Back (Traps, General Back)

Day 5: Chest (Pecs)

When training for any sport or for overall fitness, you should always train the whole body as all muscle groups require opposite groups, for example, biceps work with your triceps as opposing muscle groups. Also exercising your legs especially weight training sparks an increase in anabolic hormones which then causes an increase of the whole body. Also I recommended that you do supersets while undergoing weight training at the gym as it hits your muscle groups hard rather than just doing a single exercise and then resting.

For example, if you are really wanting to increase your back size and strength, you will want to work on a compound exercise followed by an isolation exercise, so this will include a Deadlift followed by chin-ups or pull-ups. Wide grip pull-ups will give you the best increase in back size and strength. Also after your first exercise, in this case the Deadlift, make sure you go straight onto the Isolation exercise without rest, rest should be undertaken after the second exercise (Isolation in this case).

Muscular Endurance: 12-18 Reps

Size and Strength: 4-8 Reps

If you don't understand compound or isolation exercises, just search them on google or any exercise website.

Personally I started Trial biking around 2 months ago, so I am still learning the basics.

[ghostrider88]

I train 5 days a week

Day 1: Shoulders (Delts)

Day 2: Arms (Biceps, Triceps)

Day 3: Legs (Quads, Hamstrings)

Day 4: Back (Traps, General Back)

Day 5: Chest (Pecs)

When training for any sport or for overall fitness, you should always train the whole body as all muscle groups require opposite groups, for example, biceps work with your triceps as opposing muscle groups. Also exercising your legs especially weight training sparks an increase in anabolic hormones which then causes an increase of the whole body. Also I recommended that you do supersets while undergoing weight training at the gym as it hits your muscle groups hard rather than just doing a single exercise and then resting.

For example, if you are really wanting to increase your back size and strength, you will want to work on a compound exercise followed by an isolation exercise, so this will include a Deadlift followed by chin-ups or pull-ups. Wide grip pull-ups will give you the best increase in back size and strength. Also after your first exercise, in this case the Deadlift, make sure you go straight onto the Isolation exercise without rest, rest should be undertaken after the second exercise (Isolation in this case).

Muscular Endurance: 12-18 Reps

Size and Strength: 4-8 Reps more like 3-5for strenght,8-12for muscle growth.

If you don't understand compound or isolation exercises, just search them on google or any exercise website.

Personally I started Trial biking around 2 months ago, so I am still learning the basics.

Pull ups/chin ups are not isolated exercices...Also supersets are good for muscle definition and details,not so much for strenght.

[chris4stars]

I basically looked at Gilles when at ucis and noted where he seems to have muscle and not...

i was thinking eactly the same thing when watching the recent video laurence recently requested:

to me anyway, they seem to be pretty slender for what of a better word?! definately not a 'muscular' build in my opinion, though they are obviously unbelievably strong for thier size (reminds me again of top climbers)

almost like highjumpers physique with stronger upper halfs...that is just looking at 3/4 guys but it was what stood out, and the size of the stuff they were doing (with seeming ease) was incredible

[ellingtj]

I hit the weights regularly - no idea if it helps as I don't ride anywhere near enough to notice. What about stretching and working on flexibility - would that help, I can barely touch my toes?

Here's some pointless trivia - my bro's best man is DH rider Danny Hart's trainer.

Edited December 17, 2011 by ellingtj

[ghostrider88]

I hit the weights regularly - no idea if it helps as I don't ride anywhere near enough to notice. What about stretching and working on flexibility - would that help, I can barely touch my toes?

Here's some pointless trivia - my bro's best man is DH rider Danny Hart's trainer.

Of course it would help,just look at some pictures of benito or damon and you will se how flexible they are.

[Krisboats]

this should most certainly not be sticky'd

Beginning with "First off, i have no education in this" pretty much says it all...if anything i would actively urge you to remove that nonsense from this topic

Sorry, but TRA is probably one of the best people to be listening to in this kind of thing. Him saying i've no education in this is not really of relevance to its accuracy. Formal education isn't the be all and end all of something. In fact, a lot of what is taught in education is typically behind the forefront in its respective field. I've no formal education in cooking, however i can make a nice curry. Should people ignore my recipe because i have no formal education? Also, some of the things you've said regarding muscle types and training don't seem to correlate with what i've learned. If you could back up your points with relevant information that'd be cool.

With regards to the topic, from what i've gleaned personally i'd say things like deadlifts, wide grip pull ups and squats would be what you would want to concentrate on from a trials perspective. Also working on stretching and extending your own bodys range of movements is something that is often missed. Get working on being able to place your palms flat on the floor while keeping your legs and back straight these guys work on flexibility in almost every part of the body, helped me out quite a bit in terms of rolled forward shoulders from too much time at a computer desk/poor posture.

http://www.mobilitywod.com/

[chris4stars]

Also, some of the things you've said regarding muscle types and training don't seem to correlate with what i've learned. If you could back up your points with relevant information that'd be cool.

ok, fair enough, apologies...my initial post was harsh, i still feel it wasnt worthy of being sticky'd and wasnt hugely clear in how it was written. im ok to disagree with some of the pointers (most plyometric training done on the bike/power lifting being the most effective way to increase fast twitch muscle fibres i.e. the 2-3 reps) thats my opinion on it.

that comes mainly from experience in what ive seen and done, not 'formal' education. i dont think ive gone into much formal theory about muscle types and the best way to train them? briefly skimming over what ive written i cant see where i recommended any other training other than core and plyometric (which is perfect for explosive power?) if i missed a section then fair enough...its been a long day at work

also...i only used an example of a few guys i know who do alot of the low rep/high weight exercises as evidence that its not necessarily the best way to build explosive fast muscles....the relevant information there being that with their extensive work in that area, they are considerably slower than someone like myself who does very little of that type

not looking to argue, im only hear to help too. again i'll finish on the notion that i feel plyometric (high jump style) training i feel would be most beneficial to trials riders

Edited December 17, 2011 by chris4stars

[Krisboats]

also...i only used an example of a few guys i know who do alot of the low rep/high weight exercises as evidence that its not necessarily the best way to build explosive fast muscles....the relevant information there being that with their extensive work in that area, they are considerably slower than someone like myself who does very little of that type

From what i've learned, training for more strength increases fast twitch muscle fibres and it is fast twitch muscle that is mostly used for trials. You seem to be pushing the idea that if you train for strength you'll be slower, which just isn't true.

[chris4stars]

From what i've learned, training for more strength increases fast twitch muscle fibres and it is fast twitch muscle that is mostly used for trials. You seem to be pushing the idea that if you train for strength you'll be slower, which just isn't true.

im not pushing the idea that you'll be slower, ive never said that...im just saying it doesnt necessarily always make you faster?

for the fast twitch fibres trials riders use (type 2b if we are getting fancy) - to quote sportsmedicine.com

"Type IIb Fibers

These fast twitch fibers use anaerobic metabolism to create energy and are the "classic" fast twitch muscle fibers that excel at producing quick, powerful bursts of speed. This muscle fiber has the highest rate of contraction (rapid firing) of all the muscle fiber types"

some studies show that the typeIIa fibres (sometimes known as intermediate fast twitch fibres) can produce the same force (as IIb) whilst dealing with low velocity movement...studies of how to focus on IIb over IIa are still inconclusive but suggest putting the muscle through alot of force at high velocity. As a result, theories suggest that slower very high weights stimulate the IIa's more so as the body has a natural drive to be as efficient as possible

to quote bodybuilding.com (top site on google after typing in "best way to increase fast twitch fibres"):

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly15.htm

Exercises That Increase IIB Expression

These include:

Plyometrics utilizing loads, plyometrics, "drop and catch movements", jump squats, olympic lifts, drop jumps, depth jumps, speed squats, speed benches, reactive squats, as well as most ballistic type activities in which either high speeds, and or supramaximal forces are employed.

The force from a "drop and catch" type movement utilizing loads, or a plyometric type movement, exceeds that which is created with weight training. More importantly, the velocity component and the speed that force must be created is much greater.

Put into practice one could start from the top and perform a quick "drop and explode" in a chinup, dip, squat, or olympic lifting movement.

The force created at the reversal from eccentric to concentric is great and must be applied extremely quickly or progress will not occur.

This is just a brief section of what is a large section going into much more detail about typeIIb fast twitch fibre growth stimulation. it includes links to scientific papers and research which have gone into depth about how training effect these. one of these:

Adaptation to chronic eccentric exercise in humans: the influence of contraction velocity (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11606016?dopt=Abstract) proves interesting reading too stating,

"The percentage of type I fibres in the FAST group decreased from [53.8 (6.6)% to 39.1 (4.4)%] while type IIb fibre percentage increased from [5.8 (1.9)% to 12.9 (3.3)%; P < 0.05]. In contrast, the SLOW group did not experience significant changes in muscle fibre type or muscle torque. We conclude that neuromuscular adaptations to eccentric training stimuli may be influenced by differences in the ability to cope with chronic exposure to relatively fast and slow eccentric contraction velocities"

its not an exact yes/no answer...there are theories and no doubt countless studies ongoing to work out just what we are talking about. it doesnt detract from the fact that plyometrics is often the main focus in ths

Edited December 17, 2011 by chris4stars

[Krisboats]

im not pushing the idea that you'll be slower, ive never said that...im just saying it doesnt necessarily always make you faster?

Hmmmm

a few guys i know who do alot of the low rep/high weight exercises... with their extensive work in that area, they are considerably slower than someone like myself who does very little of that type

I'd be more inclined to say that the OP should work on getting his strength up with heavy/low, using trials as basic plyo as he's doing it. Once he's reached a substantial strength increase (in the legs primarily) maybe look at moving onto weighted plyo.

Cheers for the other information, it's nice to see a well constructed reply with supporting evidence, although i did know that already.