JD™ Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I wasn't really referring to the brain in my description of Buddhistic Karma but that would, unfortunately, be the standard method to validate psychological descriptions. A sort of bringing them into the scientific fold. It's interesting to see the blind irony contained in the position of those who clearly hold science in a religious fashion. There's some definite faith, overestimating (implicit myth, omniscience, etc.), reductionism and partisan behavior. As always the complexity and diversity contained in the situation is missed. I wish I had the energy to join in a debate on this, or perhaps I don't because nobody ever really listens to anybody else, but I don't these days. I'll probably read a response though It's worth noting that my entry after your reply was actually written before yours was posted, so in no way was my flippant comment aimed at what you'd said. Actually, reading your post got a lot of thoughts going on in my head which I had to stop because it was giving me a headache.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dann2707 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Summed to a tee. Perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 It's interesting to see the blind irony contained in the position of those who clearly hold science in a religious fashion. Are you saying some people have faith in science just like people have faith in religion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1a2bcio8 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) It's worth noting that my entry after your reply was actually written before yours was posted, so in no way was my flippant comment aimed at what you'd said. Actually, reading your post got a lot of thoughts going on in my head which I had to stop because it was giving me a headache.. Wasn't aimed at you anyhow, JD It's mostly a general comment about people in our era although a couple of people in here display the trait more sharply. Humans seem to have a mechanism, so to speak, where they end up mythologizing, dogmatizing, etc. one thing whilst denouncing another thing for mostly the same reasons. It's worth having a dialogue about but, just, probably not here Yes, JT, I am. Edited November 3, 2011 by Ben Rowlands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonsieurMonkey Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 It's interesting to see the blind irony contained in the position of those who clearly hold science in a religious fashion. There's some definite faith, overestimating (implicit myth, omniscience, etc.), reductionism and partisan behavior. As always the complexity and diversity contained in the situation is missed. This is the difference. Religion etc, says "This is how everything happened." Science says, "This is what we think happens, but we're gonna keep looking until we're sure..... Oh shit, we were wrong, this is now right." Religion is trying to explain it without knowing the building blocks first. Science started from the most basic understanding of things, and has slowly become more methodical in it's approach and now we can explain all the things we can. Another way to look at it, look out of your window, anything man-made can be explained by science, can religion explain any of it? I'm going to trust Science. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Yes, JT, I am. That's an interesting way to look at it but I don't follow. I think the difference is between blind faith of religion (the belief in something crazy with absolutely no proof or evidence to support it) and the faith in science which is based on observation, measurement and evidence. Quite different I'd say. I can consider something proven by science to be fact because the evidence points to a high probability that it's correct. Religion's consider something to be a fact because they were told so by someone when they were a kid because a book told them it was (mainly aiming that at Christianity of course). If new evidence comes to light changing how we look at something science thought was fact, I have no issues reconsidering and going with it, religions stick blindly to the original tosh regardless that every piece of evidence ever found points to the exact opposite (again, thinking of creationism and all that balls). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Yes, JT, I am. I don't see how you can make that comparison. The scientific method has progressed over the years producing pretty much everything we see today, from the wheel and fire to neutrino detecting labs. Religion is at the other end of the scale providing nothing. Surely you can see science has a better track record than religion. Why is it wrong to have faith in the scientific method and good to have faith in religion? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 I don't think thats what Ben is getting at, at all. I think he is referring to faith in it's broadest sense and someone can still blindly follow science with no true knowledge of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 someone can still blindly follow science with no true knowledge of it. But even without any knowledge of what it means, the science being followed blindly will be based in fact and on observations, not made up tosh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 But even without any knowledge of what it means, the science being followed blindly will be based in fact and on observations, not made up tosh. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Yeah of course. But from the individuals mindset, it is still a form of faith despite the grounding behind each belief system. I know what i'd rather follow, but i only chirped up as i think Ben's point is being misconstrued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Science/scientific method is not a belief system though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Again you're misunderstanding. I've not said that 'science' is a belief system, but someone can have faith in science which in itself is a belief. To clarify, again, science itself - not a belief system. Someones faith or following of it can be seen as such. I'm not arguing against science so i'm not sure what the reason for the defensiveness is. What i am discussing (and i believe Ben is also) is the human condition of those who believe/follow/whatever-the-f**k-word-you-want-to-use and how one might compare a follower of science to a religious person. Of course comparisons can be drawn, but it doesn’t necessarily mean we're discussing the act of science of religion itself - just those in either camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Nichols Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Ages ago I asked Joel Bennett what his opinion on karma was and in a nutshell he told me that he dislikes the whole concept of Karma, I was a little confused by this, but then he told me that you shouldn't be a good person and expect good things to happen to you. You should just be nice because you want to be nice. The whole concept of Karma kinda promotes the conversion of a selfless act into a selfish one. It really made me think and I totally agree. So, everyone be nice, yeah? (those word Joel's exact words btw I just paraphrased and took out the London rude boi slang) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 it is still a form of faith despite the grounding behind each belief system. Again you're misunderstanding. I've not said that 'science' is a belief system, but someone can have faith in science which in itself is a belief. "Each belief system" implying the two 'systems' we're talking about are both, as you put it, belief systems. Science and religion. Or have I interpreted that wrong. Having faith in science, faith meaning "Complete trust or confidence in someone or something" is justified because of its track record. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 That's just one view point of it, and not really indicative of Karma as a whole at all. You could equally argue that you do nice things purely for the fact you don't want bad things to happen to you.... Again, it's missing the point but in essence the same point of view in reverse, and the outcome/effect remains the same. If you chose this point of view, would it then be selfish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 someone can have faith in science which in itself is a belief. Mmm. But that belief is a million miles removed from someone who has a belief in creationism. I have faith in science. I believe in science. I don't see where any parallels can be drawn to someone who has faith in God or believes in He Who Must Not Be Named (oh wait, that's something different isn't it...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Ages ago I asked Joel Bennett what his opinion on karma was and in a nutshell he told me that he dislikes the whole concept of Karma, I was a little confused by this, but then he told me that you shouldn't be a good person and expect good things to happen to you. You should just be nice because you want to be nice. The whole concept of Karma kinda promotes the conversion of a selfless act into a selfish one. Compassion sympathy is embedded in us by years of evolution so we can survive as a society. The only reason we do good things for others is so that they'll potentially do good things for us back when we need it. That's just one view point of it, and not really indicative of Karma as a whole at all. You could equally argue that you do nice things purely for the fact you don't want bad things to happen to you.... Again, it's missing the point but in essence the same point of view in reverse, and the outcome/effect remains the same. If you chose this point of view, would it then be selfish? I was just talking about what Ben said and nothing to do with Karma really. But yes everything we do is for our own good even if it looks like we have good morals helping others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Mmm. But that belief is a million miles removed from someone who has a belief in creationism. I have faith in science. I believe in science. I don't see where any parallels can be drawn to someone who has faith in God or believes in He Who Must Not Be Named (oh wait, that's something different isn't it...). Again, I agree with you that they're are as far removed from one another as is possible but there is such a variety amongst mankind (mix in the fact that naturally we all like to believe in something) then i think there is an argument for those who might follow science for perhaps slightly unorthodox reasons that can be compared on some level to a follower of God(s). Perhaps my point will be clearer if i explain my background. I was raised in the Christian faith for the first 13 years of my life and I whole heartedly reject it and what it stands for. I think the words that are spouted day after day in all the various churches (can only speak on behalf of Christian teachings) is absolutely disgusting. No part of me can agree with what is being said, and it causes me annoyance to see the countless people babbling along with sermon giving it no real thought. If you mix in my thoughts about an institution that has such a lax view on child rape then i could go on for days about just what i find wrong with religion. So it's safe to say that i'm a member of camp science. I find the elements of discovery absolutely fascinating, and get a real sense of wonderment from the things i learn, however if i'm completely honest i'm not hugely knowledgeable on the subject so does it make it right for me to follow science? I know there is solid grounding behind these various theories and there is endless research to back it up, but on a completely personal level i don't necessarily 'get it' so in a sense i am blindly believing. This is my point...whilst i can see of course it's the way to go, as an individual i could be compared to a follower of faith just blindly believing. Reason and logic dictate it's the right thing to do, but if i can't fully comprehend the theories, the experiments, the lessons then how can i truly believe? Only with a bit of faith..... Compassion sympathy is embedded in us by years of evolution so we can survive as a society. The only reason we do good things for others is so that they'll potentially do good things for us back when we need it. I was just talking about what Ben said and nothing to do with Karma really. But yes everything we do is for our own good even if it looks like we have good morals helping others. I don't actually agree with that first sentiment. Deep down i consider myself a good person on a moral level, but i truly don't believe i would (or do) good things purely for the pay back. I know you might say it's a deep rooted subconscious reaction, but i feel the instinct to help quite often and never does a thought for how it'll benefit me cross my mind. I think it's a little too broad to say all of humanity only do good for there own gain, but i certainly understand the thought behind it. For instance, if you take love..... You will give the world to someone you love, do anything in any way for them, but not necessarily to make yourself happy. Of course there will always be the selfish acts that we're all well aware of, but i can honestly say that on many occasions my first thoughts in situations will be for the benefit of my partner (out of that love thing i guess) without any consideration of myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Love is another good example, we do more for the one's we love so our offspring has better chance of survival. Every emotion we feel is to keep ourselves alive so we get to reproduce. Sex = life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew62 Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 What if you hate kids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Love is another good example, we do more for the one's we love so our offspring has better chance of survival. Every emotion we feel is to keep ourselves alive so we get to reproduce. Sex = life. That's not true now is it? The fact that I get an emotion of happiness from riding my bike doesn't help to keep me alive so that I can reproduce. A man killing himself over the sadness caused by his wife leaving himself is hardly emotion helping is it? Oh, and sex does not implicitly equal life, with rolled eyes or not. Just ask the younger members of the clergy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT! Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 That's not true now is it? The fact that I get an emotion of happiness from riding my bike doesn't help to keep me alive so that I can reproduce. A man killing himself over the sadness caused by his wife leaving himself is hardly emotion helping is it? Oh, and sex does not implicitly equal life, with rolled eyes or not. Just ask the younger members of the clergy. Depression of a man losing his wife could be an evolved emotion to try and get him out to find another woman, depression is generally higher in people who don't have a partner and is often the cause of it. Emotions aren't perfect so his level of depression is clearly too much, but if he killed himself chances are low that he reproduced passing on his bad genes to his offspring. Riding your bike making you happy could be your body rewarding you for exercising, keeping your body in good fitness so when that lion comes you get get away from it. Everything we feel and all our actions are always somehow related to what we got from years of evolution, which is to keep us alive to reproduce, we're based from nothing else. What if you hate kids? In the wild you'll still have had them. And you'll love and take care of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeyseemonkeydo Posted November 3, 2011 Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Everything we feel and all our actions are always somehow related to what we got from years of evolution, which is to keep us alive to reproduce, we're based from nothing else. That may have been the case in years gone by when life was tough but how would you explain someone who base jumps or proximity flies? They are simply trying to get closer to death for the adrenaline rush it gives. I don't see that aiding their ability to reproduce, escape a lion or live longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss-Higgy Posted November 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2011 Ages ago I asked Joel Bennett what his opinion on karma was and in a nutshell he told me that he dislikes the whole concept of Karma, I was a little confused by this, but then he told me that you shouldn't be a good person and expect good things to happen to you. You should just be nice because you want to be nice. The whole concept of Karma kinda promotes the conversion of a selfless act into a selfish one. It really made me think and I totally agree. So, everyone be nice, yeah? (those word Joel's exact words btw I just paraphrased and took out the London rude boi slang) Another good way to put it. If your only doing something out of a gain for yourself, it defeats the object.. So very well put Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.