Laurence--Trials Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) Aye, things like bb30 Thats pretty low for most riders nowadays, could this be made higher? 1.5 taper headtube I'm liking this! Always thought the Headtube on most bikes looks silly because its so thin, we need more 1.5 Headtubes in trials. Also, what sizes will be avilable assuming it comes out in production, stock, mod and 24 or just stock? Would a carbon downtube protector fit it? - To stop any major damage to the frame and possibly having to replace the tubes that some people may not be able to afford. Will the BB only be press fit? Will it be avaliable in any other colours because i'm not a fan of orange. Just a thought, built in booster to stiffen up the frame? (if it needs it? i know carbon is pretty stiff.) Really glad your bringing out new trials products mike! Guessing this wont be out soon though keep the 1.5 headtube and make a pure 24" trial one for me Edited October 23, 2011 by Laurence--Trials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Yeah, BB30 doesn't mean a +30mm BB. It's a threadless press-fit BB type 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishayton Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) Great idea and the execution is looking good. One area that would concern me is how do the clamped interfaces handle things like 'wedges', wedges and hooks. The stress on the clamped surfaces would be huge, are you not worried people will that pulling the head tubes away from the top and down tubes or at least slipping in the mounts Edited October 23, 2011 by chrishayton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaybs41282 Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 I really love the look of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onza pro series guy Posted October 23, 2011 Report Share Posted October 23, 2011 Simply amazing, please produce it I want one so badly the idea of simply changing downtubes and brake mounts is unreal. If this goes into production at a fairly reasonable price count me in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forteh Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Great idea and the execution is looking good. One area that would concern me is how do the clamped interfaces handle things like 'wedges', wedges and hooks. The stress on the clamped surfaces would be huge, are you not worried people will that pulling the head tubes away from the top and down tubes or at least slipping in the mounts This ^^ Also have you had to use aluminium inserts to stop the tubes crushing in the clamps? Looks good otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurence--Trials Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Yeah, BB30 doesn't mean a +30mm BB. It's a threadless press-fit BB type But to change the hieght of the BB wont you need different drop outs due to the angle? Like so: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 You'd most likely have to change a few bits, yeah, but that's not what I was pointing out. I was simply letting you know that BB30 (to which you replied "Thats pretty low for most riders nowadays, could this be made higher?") didn't have anything to do with the BB rise of the frame, in order to help you fully understand what Mike was talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD™ Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 But to change the hieght of the BB wont you need different drop outs due to the angle? Different geometries would need bent tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 But to change the hieght of the BB wont you need different drop outs due to the angle? Only if you wanted to put straight tubes to change the geometry back in. Curved tubes should compensate for that. I know it was only an example, but the geo difference and frame style is extremely different between the inspired and the koxx. Geometry tweeks on the same style frame would be alot more subtle as the angles won't be as far off. I love this idea. Looking forward to seeing more of it. I too am curious of how well the clamps hold together with things like hooks and stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 As much as it's an interesting idea, I have a couple of reservations. Firstly, you would be selling this to mostly teenages and engineers who largely seem incapable of correctly putting in pedals or bottom brackets let alone assembling a frame. I could imagain a lot of comeback from people cocking up the assembly. I also think it would be difficult to to guarentee a perfectly aligned frame, you said you used a jig, not many people will have access to one and could end up with a wonky frame. Changing the geo with bent tubes, I don't think there are many people who could correctly calculate the exact bend redii to get the wanted geo, not with out upsetting some other angle anyway. I am all for thinking of new ideas, but this seems to be trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. I would much rather know what I want then buy a frame that matches (or go custom with a cheap steel jobbie). Having a frame with more potential points of failure, risk of not being straight, heavier and without wanting to be too rude, not as good looking just doesn't sound like a great idea to me. Congrats on getting this far though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simpson Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Great proto Mike looks sweet, doesn't look particualy viable as a business, (but you seem to have realised that) but a great product to push biking frames in a better direction than what were currently stuck with. Hope you can get the product to the stage you want, looks fun but hard! Congrats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Leech Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Firstly, you would be selling this to mostly teenages and engineers who largely seem incapable of correctly putting in pedals or bottom brackets let alone assembling a frame. I could imagain a lot of comeback from people cocking up the assembly. I also think it would be difficult to to guarentee a perfectly aligned frame, you said you used a jig, not many people will have access to one and could end up with a wonky frame. Changing the geo with bent tubes, I don't think there are many people who could correctly calculate the exact bend redii to get the wanted geo, not with out upsetting some other angle anyway. Got to agree with Ali for the first point, but the proto that was made was quite simple to piece together, just had to get it in the right order. The jig was only used to align the main connections for welding, ie, the bb yoke, headtube, dropouts, getting the frame straight when assembled with all the other tubes wasn't an issue as these pieces held them at the requiered angle . The bent tube option would have to be a made to order job in my eyes, i dont think it'd be too hard to calculate the radia, especially with the CAD programs in use today. Cheers, Josh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 I more meant it would be tricky to make sure the frame was straight rather than the angles correct, I think it could be pretty easy to have a slight twist along the main triangle. Don't forget, most people don't have CAD or the know how to calculate how much bend a tube should have to end up with the correct geo and if by the time you have paid someone to work it out, buy the tube, bend it, you may as well put that towards a frame with the actual geo you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Leech Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) I more meant it would be tricky to make sure the frame was straight rather than the angles correct, I think it could be pretty easy to have a slight twist along the main triangle. Yeah, this could happen, but aslong as the seatstay/bb yokes were aligned with the headtube yoke and it was all clamped acordingly, it would be very hard to do as the tubes shouldnt be able to move in that axis, or any infact. Very true, but this is where the buisness side of the project would come in, i'd of thought anyways. I know mike has said if you want to, you can with this frame, but just like anything else, thats not always the case and some things have to be sent out/ordered in. Edited October 24, 2011 by Rob Leech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 I guess it would depend on what tubes are used, but it just seems like a potential problem that is being created when it does't exist on "normal" frames. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Leech Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) I guess it would depend on what tubes are used, but it just seems like a potential problem that is being created when it does't exist on "normal" frames. I wouldnt say so, i think that the only way that this could happen, considering that the connections are spot on, is if another tube were to fail, ie, the seat tubes or chain stays, but then again, what would you do if this were to happen to a normal frame? I wouldn't call it a potential problem on a project like this, i'd call it a definate problem that needs a lot of thought and testing put into it, which Mike has worked pretty hard at to solve and, from the first proto, is getting around quite quickly. I think you've got to look at this frame differently to others, like pretty much everything else that has come around, people don't agree with it at first, but once it has been properly developed, tested and is shown to work, they tend to warm to the idea (not saying that everything "new" works btw ). I have got to say to the people in the thread that have said that this will kill all other frames, ofcourse it won't, there will always be people that prefer a normal trials frame to this, just as there are people that prefer a bash plate over a ring, maybe you want the security of knowing that whatever happens, your frame cant just come apart . Anyways, that's my take on it . Cheers, Josh. Edited October 24, 2011 by Rob Leech Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Nichols Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 I think it's a fantastic concept, really innovative. I can't quite my head around what Ali's saying about the potential for alignment issues. Provided there are stops for the tubes to ensure they are correctly located and as long as all the angles on the lugs are spot on then everything will only seat in the intended way. The only way you could end up with alignment issues would be if the lugs didn't have an actual stop for you to locate the tube against (meaning you could easily clamp the tubes at the wrong position). I think I'm right.. ? :$ I do really like this but personally could never see myself with one as I would definitely kill it too fast and I don't really feel the need for bolt-on 'stuff'. There will be a market for it I'm sure though. Good luck with the next stages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 I just think alignment could be an issue. Unless the connectors are quite long and quite a tight fit, you are not guaranteed correct alignment. On a 2d plane it would be tricky. If it was a 3d box then yes, I would agree that it would always end up correct, but a 2D object is not. Perhaps it's just from working with demo scaffolding and making shapes with that that's convinced me, I would like to see some regular riders have the chance to test it, give them the bits and let them build it, that would convince me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Nichols Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) I find it really difficult to visualise the assembly without actually doing it myself. What you said makes perfect sense to me.. But at the same time I think I'm right!! Either way, like you were saying, I dread to think what some people are gonna do to that frame! Exhibit A. Exhibit B. And another.. :$ Edited October 24, 2011 by nichols_sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dann2707 Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Haha why on earth does that chair look so provocative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali C Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 I find it really difficult to visualise the assembly without actually doing it myself. What you said makes perfect sense to me.. But at the same time I think I'm right!! Either way, like you were saying, I dread to think what some people are gonna do to that frame! Exhibit A. Exhibit B. having stops will help, but so do the bases we use in our demo rigs and they can end up all kinds of shapes...... admittedly they are not a tight fit so that would deffo help, but I would still be surprised if once bolted up without the use of any measuring tools it was perfectly straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Rainbird Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 God help us when half the members on this forum have to put together a frame, most haven't even grasped full sentences yet... 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmike Posted October 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 Luke, that is slightly worrying.. All we can do is skule some n00bs right? I'd hope that the type of people that would buy it would choose to do so because they care about what the buy and can condition a relationship with whatever that is to make it last! The points Ali raised are pretty valid on both accounts. Alignment was definitely an issue assembling it out of the jig, but no more than say - aligning your stem with your front wheel.. This would be solved right away by adding in stops (as someone mentioned) and also splines on the tube/clamp interfaces, also helping out with the potential issues with torque between the tubes and clamps, reducing the amount of clamping force needed. It would have been nice to include those in this prototype (some cnc lathe work on the tubes and an extrusion die for the clamps would mean this wouldn't be hard in production), but my tutor laughed when he saw the CAD model as it was ("Hah! good luck.."), so maybe next time.. Have an arse shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurence--Trials Posted October 25, 2011 Report Share Posted October 25, 2011 I think thats f**king sexy :$ whats with your pedals and no brakes though? I assume its being built..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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